Britains most Packed train

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Southern

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The 08:02 ONE WA Cambridge - London Liverpool Street service is apprently Britains most packed train service, overcrowding by 85%. The 16:33 Thameslink Sutton - Luton service came in second, with the following routes being just as packed:

3. Victoria - London Bridge/Clapham Junction
4. Kings X - Cambridge
5. Isleworth - Waterloo
6. Paddington - Oxford
7. Margate - Cannon Street
8. Haslemere - Waterloo
9. Victoria - Rochester
10. Weybridge - Waterloo

Shadow Transport Minister Chris Grayling Said: " Things Seem to be Getting Worse".
 
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Sprinter

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I am surprised the NLL is not in the top 10! Notably the 0808 ex Barking which had overcrowding figures in excess of 130%!! (This has recently been eased though by the extra 0823 off Barking)

Also getting off this train at Gospel Oak and trying to board the 0847 to Richmond, I had to let this train go once because I could not physically get on!
 

960012

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Wasnt suprised to see halesmare to waterloo on there, There is a restricetion to using privs on one service up form halesmare.
 

O L Leigh

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Saw this reported in the Sub-Standard as well.

Just how was this measured? When were these figures taken (can't have been very recently given that there is no 0802 CBG-LST in the current timetable)? Exactly what do they mean?

As for asking what the Great Unwashed thinks, well that's and open invitation to every crank and nut out there with an axe to grind. To them any train where they actually have to sit next to somebody or move their bag off the neighbouring seat is overcrowded.

This sort of "news" reporting is not worth the paper it's printed on.

one TN

--EDIT--

Just spotted the story on the BBC News website. It would appear that the 0802 CBG-LST that was surveyed was actually an 8 car train on the day of the survey due to service disruption, but that the DfT had only allowed 4 cars worth of capacity in their calculation. Therefore, it is likely that the loadings on that train could have been untypically high on the day of the survey, and definate that the train was actually running at below 100% capacity.

Don't believe everything you read in the media, folks.
 

Tom C

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Well the 16:33 to LUT doesn't go to LUT!!

Infact it is the 16:32 to SAC and has been for over a year!

There are far worse trains like the 16:13 SAC to WIM via MIJ and the 16:14 LUT to SUO via TOO.

The sad fact is all three of these trains are 4 coaches and it is right here when you see just how badly Thameslink need extra units to cope!

EDIT: I would just to like to add that Thameslink commuters can be a tad dim witted at times. I have seen 8 coach trains pull in with the front 2 coaches full to bursting, the next two with a few standing and SEATS in the back. If people do not have the intelligence to move down the train, well I am afraid you cannot blame the TOC for that. OK there are trains that should be strengthned but sometimes a bit of common sense would make train travel that bit easier.
 

Julian G

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I remember back in October (Jim's London meet)
when we were going down from Willesden
There were quite a lot of people on that 313 and then
more people joined the train at Kensington Olympia and then more people joined at West Brompton
 

Craig

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I doubt any of the trains up here can compare. But before the Metro was extended, some of the peak Newcastle - Sunderland (and vice versa) trains used to be pretty packed. Also the 16:05 weekday trains from Whitby during the summer is always full of school kids and tourists, often standing room only by the time it gets to Grosmont.

one TN said:
To them any train where they actually have to sit next to somebody or move their bag off the neighbouring seat is overcrowded.
Whenever I use the train I often have to sit opposite some one at a table where there's 4 seats, it's a disgrace :lol:
 

Southern

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Tom C said:
Well the 16:33 to LUT doesn't go to LUT!!

Infact it is the 16:32 to SAC and has been for over a year!

There are far worse trains like the 16:13 SAC to WIM via MIJ and the 16:14 LUT to SUO via TOO.

The sad fact is all three of these trains are 4 coaches and it is right here when you see just how badly Thameslink need extra units to cope!

EDIT: I would just to like to add that Thameslink commuters can be a tad dim witted at times. I have seen 8 coach trains pull in with the front 2 coaches full to bursting, the next two with a few standing and SEATS in the back. If people do not have the intelligence to move down the train, well I am afraid you cannot blame the TOC for that. OK there are trains that should be strengthned but sometimes a bit of common sense would make train travel that bit easier.
Excuse me but the 16:33 does go to Luton:

Sutton (Surrey) (rail station) 16:33 1 2V80 TL Luton
Carshalton (rail station) 16:36 16:36
Hackbridge (rail station) 16:38 16:38
Mitcham Junction (rail station) 16:41 16:41
Streatham (rail station) 16:47 16:47
Tulse Hill (rail station) 16:50 16:50 1
Herne Hill (rail station) 16:54 16:54 1
Elephant and Castle (rail station) 16:59 17:00
London Blackfriars (rail station) 17:03 17:04 5
London City Thmslnk (rail station) 17:06 17:06 1
Farringdon Thameslink (rail station) 17:09 17:10 4
London Kings X Thmslnk (rail station) 17:13 17:14
Kentish Town (rail station) 17:18 17:18
West Hampstead Thmslnk (rail station) 17:22 17:22
Cricklewood (rail station) 17:25 17:25
Hendon (rail station) 17:28 17:28
Mill Hill Broadway (rail station) 17:32 17:33
Elstree and Borehamwood (rail station) 17:37 17:38
Radlett (rail station) 17:42 17:42
St Albans (rail station) 17:47 17:48 2
Harpenden (rail station) 17:53 17:54
Luton Airport Parkway (rail station) 17:59 18:00
Luton (rail station) 18:05

The 16:32 to St Albans goes via West Sutton and Morden South.
 

Tom C

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Well Excuse me!!!!!

Helps if you look at the right book I suppose. Knew there was a 16:3X that went through Tooting, totally forgot about the trains via Mitcham.

I can see you are the sort of person who likes to really prove a point, so I concede dear sir am I excused!
 

Techniquest

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one TN said:
Saw this reported in the Sub-Standard as well.

Just how was this measured? When were these figures taken (can't have been very recently given that there is no 0802 CBG-LST in the current timetable)? Exactly what do they mean?

As for asking what the Great Unwashed thinks, well that's and open invitation to every crank and nut out there with an axe to grind. To them any train where they actually have to sit next to somebody or move their bag off the neighbouring seat is overcrowded.

This sort of "news" reporting is not worth the paper it's printed on.

one TN

--EDIT--

Just spotted the story on the BBC News website. It would appear that the 0802 CBG-LST that was surveyed was actually an 8 car train on the day of the survey due to service disruption, but that the DfT had only allowed 4 cars worth of capacity in their calculation. Therefore, it is likely that the loadings on that train could have been untypically high on the day of the survey, and definate that the train was actually running at below 100% capacity.

Don't believe everything you read in the media, folks.
The thing about how and when they did it, reminds me of when they wanted rid of ATF's MAN - PNZ service, they quoted numbers in January, which were still surprisingly high, but still not during the summer when the services were heavily used. Naturally, they used the January figures to get rid of it. Stupid...No, avoid bad language...

I was surprised not to see the 0808 off Barking on the top of that list myself, but it's not surprising judging by what they voted to be the busiest. Is there a non-London area service there? No. Padd to Oxford still counts as a London area service really.

Finally, as for not listening to everything the media says, already doing that myself. Would rather not believe what the media says half of the time. But that's a different matter...
 

ChrisCooper

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Of cource when talking about overcrowing, they only ever seem to mention London services. I have travelled many times on trains on Cross Country, Regional and Rural lines that have been crush loaded, on some occasions to the point where passengers have been left behind, all times on journeys of an hour or more. On the other hand, I've often travelled on rush hour commuter services from London that might have been packed solid down at the back, but I've been able to spread out nice and comfortable at the front. Passenger numbers in other areas might be on a different scale to London, but proportional to capacity they are at times as bad or worse. I expect a lot of rush hour services in urban areas outside London can get very busy aswell, and many services in those areas are at or above capacity.
 

Dennis

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ChrisCooper said:
Of cource when talking about overcrowing, they only ever seem to mention London services. I have travelled many times on trains on Cross Country, Regional and Rural lines that have been crush loaded, on some occasions to the point where passengers have been left behind, all times on journeys of an hour or more. On the other hand, I've often travelled on rush hour commuter services from London that might have been packed solid down at the back, but I've been able to spread out nice and comfortable at the front. Passenger numbers in other areas might be on a different scale to London, but proportional to capacity they are at times as bad or worse. I expect a lot of rush hour services in urban areas outside London can get very busy aswell, and many services in those areas are at or above capacity.
Agree with that, it's not just a London problem and not just confined to urban areas. The question is, given that much of the demand is predictable, what is Tony Bliar and his friends at DfT (who seem intent on controlling the railways) going to do about it?
 

class 313

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Well im not suprised about the sutton Thameslink route, Thameslink trains are always packed during rush hours on weekdays! Tom you have to admit that!
 

andel

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When I was working in Sw'land, i kicked myself for not insisting on the train.. i had to settle for travelling on road and watching for trains lol
 

beermaddavep

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I've travelled widely by rail in Britain, but the worst overcrowding I ever witnessed was a few years ago on a Scotrail 158 from Edinburgh to Inverness. A 2 car unit on the 11:20 ish departure, on a summer saturday with all seats bar 4 reserved in second class, the guard declassified 1st but still people were crammed along the aisles. The atmosphere was terrible(think peak hour tube) and most passengers endured this for the full four hour journey. I doubt if any of these people returned to rail for subsequent journeys.
This was shortly after withdrawl of class 47 and mk2 stock on the highland mainline. So much for progress......
 

Dennis

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beermaddavep said:
I've travelled widely by rail in Britain, but the worst overcrowding I ever witnessed was a few years ago on a Scotrail 158 from Edinburgh to Inverness. A 2 car unit on the 11:20 ish departure, on a summer saturday with all seats bar 4 reserved in second class, the guard declassified 1st but still people were crammed along the aisles. The atmosphere was terrible(think peak hour tube) and most passengers endured this for the full four hour journey. I doubt if any of these people returned to rail for subsequent journeys.
This was shortly after withdrawl of class 47 and mk2 stock on the highland mainline. So much for progress......
Summer weekends are always going to be a problem, if the sun is shining a couple of hundred people will want to travel instead of the more usual couple of dozen on some services (eg Weymouth, HOW, Skegness etc). LHCS is the obvious answer but the cost of retaining and running stock is very high and difficult to justify (thats if DfT / NR approval to run them can be obtained in the first place). Full marks to Wessex trains for what they have achieved on the Bristol - Weymouth summer Saturday services.

Overcrowding on this type of service is not good for the railways as many of the passengers are infrequent users who will not use the system again following bad experiences (unlike commuters who seem to be used to and put up with overcrowding).

Lets hope companies like FMR can work with TOC's and NR to get some more LHCS running on overcrowded workings over the summer.
 

ChrisCooper

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The varying demand is the big problem for lines that deal with both holiday and commuter traffic. Some lines suffer from both these problems, for example the Norfolk Branches tend to be fairly quiet most of the day outside of the holiday period, but during holiday time and commuter times (school children seen to provide the bulk of the "commuter" market) trains can be packed. Even many of these routes around London which are supposedly packed are probably fairly quiet off peak (I know I've travelled on many routes around London at weekends which have been very quiet). You tend to get other factors that come in aswell, with shopping traffic, particularly on market days, people going out for nights out (a lot of the traffic on the Norfolk branches in the evenings is people going for a night out in Norwich, which is why Anglia introduced later trains on most lines), and special events traffic. In the past they seemed much better at dealing with these issues. The same stock that was used to provide additional capacity at peak times was used to run duplicate services on holiday routes or other spikes in demand. This would often be formed of elderly coaching stock, and often using freight locos. The increase use of units really spelled the end for this, even before privatisation. This is still done to some extent though. The extra unit on a 4 car service to Skegness would probably be used in the week to double up a commuter service around Birmingham, but it's still not earning it's keep most of the time, yet costs far more to keep and run than the elderly hauled stock used in the past, and that's probably why a 4 car unit is used, wheras 6 would probably be better on both the commuter service and to Skegness.
One other parralel between the commuter and holiday traffic is that it's not just the railways that have the issue. Just like roads in cities clog up at rush hour, roads in holiday areas clog up over the summer aswell, with average speeds over long distances that would make London roads at rush hour look fast (one time, driving from near Skegness to Loughborough one summer saturday, it took well over half an hour to move under a mile, and it wasn't because of an accident, it was just the convergance of two busy steams of holiday traffic). I do wonder if a lot of the problem though is that most of the desision makers across all forms are transport never have to put up with crowded trains or conjested roads over the summer, since they neither live there, and would never dream of holidaying there).
 

metrocammel

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How exactly are these figures of % overcrowding taken? Going off the "Top 10" they are all London services, however I live near Stalybridge and commute from there to Manchester, and in the morning a 4 car 08:01 (142 & 150 combo) Staly (ex Hudds) to So'port (via Man Vic) is dangerously overcrowded everyday, with people literally wedged into the doorsteps. I sometimes get the 0748 or the 0809 FTPE to Piccadilly from Staly, and they too are very overcrowded, with people wedged all the way down the aisles, and more than 10 people stood in the end vestibules! Completely wedged. Surely these trains are 80 to 100% overfull, as there are must be the same amount of people stood as there are seated, if not more. At least in London commuters get 8 or 12 car trains as the norm, but in Manchester your lucky to get 3 coaches (the 0748 is often a two car 158!!) , with a 6 coach Transpennine being unheard of.
 

Lewisham2221

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metrocammel said:
How exactly are these figures of % overcrowding taken?
Probably in the same way that most so called 'statistics' in the media are calculated - by deciding approximately what outcome they want to achieve to make a suitably 'shocking' report and then surveying a select few services that they know will provide the necassary statistics for the report. All in all, not very accurate, as I'm sure most of you will agree.
 

Tom B

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There is a proper formula for working out overcrowding or otherwise. I cba to look it up at present but will do so later. But IIRC 100% capacity is every seat taken with a few people standing, up to 250% which is where peopel can't physically get on.
 

DLA365

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Can you also find out how the number of standees varies between different types of rolling stock (eg between a class 142 and a 150).

At least 100% capacity is when the train only has a few standees. Compared to a London bendy-bus when 100% capacity is when 100 standees are carried!
 
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