British heritage lines which are returning to normal, post Covid-19 restrictions.

[Runningaround]

That's not the case - the training and ongoing competency requirements nowadays are quite onerous and plenty of folks don't stick it out anymore.

Good if they are running equipment of the age they do then you need competent people working them voluntary or not, if they are selling something for the public then they to need to be held to the same standards as the business they compete with.

 

[lukeychops]

The Bure Valley Railway's website is asking passengers to wear masks "around our stations to keep everyone safe" -no mention of on trains!- and is not serving the intermediate stations.

Anyone know if they've simply failed to update their website; or is this nonsense actually still in place? A proposed visit next week is suddenly looking a lot less likely....

Still in place at BVR; allocated compartments and trains last weekend with screens separating compartments.

Intermediate stations closed “until further notice”

 

[bramling]

Most travelling to the area with a heritage line will have planned there visit, few tourists would be unaware there isn't a popular tourist attraction if they want to guarantee seats together for their family pre-booking is the best way to to that. Just because some lines introduced it during covid doesn't mean it's still a covid measure, they have seen it as good commercial opportunity and can gauge how many will be turning up that day and staff the trains accordingly. Soon they will probably do as other entertainment venues and events do and charge a premium for pay on the day.

Surely this idea that people couldn’t get seats together pre-2020 is being a little overplayed? Sure I’m sure it will have happened occasionally on the busiest days for people who turned up at the last minute, but for the vast majority of people this won’t have been the typical experience.

Now, instead, you get people moaning if they’re allocated to a seat where there’s a dog nearby and can’t now move elsewhere, so it seems to be replacing one set of problems with another.

I don't believe they generally have trouble getting people to do the fun stuff, i.e. driving and guarding, for free.

I don’t believe there’s a shortage of people wanting to throw their hat in the ring, however gone are the days when people could just jump on a loco, watch someone else drive a couple of times, and then be let loose. The comp assurance aspect is nowadays quite involved. Then on top of that railways need people who are prepared to turn up reliably on a constant basis, not just once in a while when the feel like a jolly.

What I suspect will be an ever increasing problem is lack of ex mainline people with experience of working traditional traction. Even many of today’s mainline drivers won’t have the defect handling knowledge of such old traction types. So more and more heritage railways will be having to train people from scratch. Whilst there’s never going to be quite the pressure of being in charge of a mainline train with 1,000+ people on that’s broken down across London Bridge approaches at 0800 on Monday morning, nonetheless such crews need to know what they’re doing, and that means quite a bit of training, as well as ongoing assurance, required. Not everyone will want to subject themselves to this, be the right temperament for it, or simply have the spare time.

 

[Runningaround]

Surely this idea that people couldn’t get seats together pre-2020 is being a little overplayed? Sure I’m sure it will have happened occasionally on the busiest days for people who turned up at the last minute, but for the vast majority of people this won’t have been the typical experience.

Now, instead, you get people moaning if they’re allocated to a seat where there’s a dog nearby and can’t now move elsewhere, so it seems to be replacing one set of problems with another.

Have you seen how busy holiday destinations are now? Covid pushed the means and ability to do things differently to before booking is one.
Since mobile phone and internet technology became widespread I can't remember the last major attraction, event, concert, big football match that didn't require pre-booking to guarantee a seat, even ones that don't sell out push tickets out early by offering early bird discounts i've even needed to pre-book free events. Advanced booking allows the venue to determine a whole load of things such as staffing, stock based on expected numbers. Busy heritage lines have seen a benefit certainly if they are paying staff to run the services. Will they need 10 carriages or five!

And just like your dog analogy you never know if you'll be sat next to an eight stone teenager or in-between two twenty stone blokes, or behind a seven footer. It's not unlike the real railways. You can ensure that all your group can sit together though.

 

[eldomtom2]

The Vale of Rheidol wholey so

That used to be the case but hasn't been true for over a decade.

 

[PeterC]

Then on top of that railways need people who are prepared to turn up reliably on a constant basis, not just once in a while when the feel like a jolly.

This is a common problem in all fields that rely on volunteers.

 

[LowLevel]

Good if they are running equipment of the age they do then you need competent people working them voluntary or not, if they are selling something for the public then they to need to be held to the same standards as the business they compete with.

It is no bad thing in terms of safe and professional railway operations.

However, when it comes to attracting people, maybe 20 years ago to become a heritage railway guard you'd turn up for on the job training for a pre defined number of turns, maybe have a few class room sessions, do an assessment and off you go.

Nowadays you have to attend a selection process (an ORR requirement - they want to see some thought goes into who may undertake safety critical duties, rather than giving anyone who turns up a go), a full course, then do your training turns (which can be a drawn out affair depending on how much time you can commit), then qualify and be subject to a competency regime thereafter. If something goes wrong you can expect to be prevented from doing what you enjoy for some considerable time and possibly even face criminal charges.

It is a whole new world of commitment.

On a few occasions as duty manager I've been in the unfortunate position of having to make a situation safe, suspend some very good friends from duty, take initial statements and pass them on to technical inspectors and an internal inquiry - and of course account for my own actions as the manager in charge of the initial response. I am a railwayman by professional anyway so it is part of life for me but it still isn't pleasant.

It thoroughly upset them and it has taken it's toll on me too - playing trains nowadays it isn't.

On the other hand of course it is very rewarding to see living history on the 99% of days it goes well.

 

[Runningaround]

That used to be the case but hasn't been true for over a decade.

Really? It was always non-volunteer run. It can't be comfortable for local paid employees training up unpaid volunteers(usually from the West Midlands as is common in the areas Heritage Rail sector) who could replace them and can turn up as they feel.
Or are they using the DWP schemes to give unemployed people work experience as cheap labour to do the hard unglamorous jobs like they've done in the past? Only benefit they gave was a PTS.

 

[paul1609]

What I suspect will be an ever increasing problem is lack of ex mainline people with experience of working traditional traction. Even many of today’s mainline drivers won’t have the defect handling knowledge of such old traction types. So more and more heritage railways will be having to train people from scratch. Whilst there’s never going to be quite the pressure of being in charge of a mainline train with 1,000+ people on that’s broken down across London Bridge approaches at 0800 on Monday morning, nonetheless such crews need to know what they’re doing, and that means quite a bit of training, as well as ongoing assurance, required. Not everyone will want to subject themselves to this, be the right temperament for it, or simply have the spare time.

Again I can only speak for my railway but the model has changed somewhat from the early days when we relied on old br hands to provide the training. What has been happening for at least the last 30 years is that young operating volunteers have started on a preserved railway but have then gone on to get jobs on the mainline railways. They've remained volunteers and are thus able to pass on both their mainline and preservation experience to the next generation often in roles such as the various inspectors. I think our mentoring and training and indeed our relationships with the mainline cos is about as strong as its ever been.

 

[Bikeman78]

Surely this idea that people couldn’t get seats together pre-2020 is being a little overplayed? Sure I’m sure it will have happened occasionally on the busiest days for people who turned up at the last minute, but for the vast majority of people this won’t have been the typical experience.

Now, instead, you get people moaning if they’re allocated to a seat where there’s a dog nearby and can’t now move elsewhere, so it seems to be replacing one set of problems with another.

I never had a problem. Sometimes had to squeeze into a compartment with another family but that's no big deal. If there are two single people sitting in adjacent four bays then one of them will usually move to let the family sit together. If they don't they'll get invaded by the family anyway.

 

[duncombec]

I recently rode on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway - my journey started at Wootton, because of bus connections and where I was going afterwards, so my experience here may be similar to Smallbrook Junction, but won't be the same as Havenstreet.

I could have booked online, as "encouraged", but hadn't worked out what I was going to do until the day (I changed my plans the whole week depending on timings), and when I had decided, I couldn't get the website to work on my phone! I didn't expect a problem though, and sure enough, there wasn't.

Arrived early, was greeted by the friendly stationmaster/booking office person, who enquired if I'd already booked. Said no, no problem, we can sort that out. Asked if I minded sharing a compartment (no), and then asked what time train I wanted to be back on. I asked his advice how long he thought I'd need at Havenstreet, given it has been about 20 years since I'd been there, and he advised the train after the one I'd arrived on (so just shy of 2 hours, rather than travelling immediately onwards on the one 35 minutes after I arrived). That was the one I'd expected I'd need anyway, and the advice was just right. There was enough time to walk around the various things to do and stop in the cafe before boarding the train. Spent the rest of time waiting for my train putting the world to rights with the signalman.

Neither of the couples (a young couple with a toddler and a 'pensioner' couple) I shared with seemed fussed by the interloper - I sat on one side of the compartment, they on the other and we had a nice chat. The allocated compartments seemed popular, with the majority of people seeming to appreciate the "service" and knowing there was room rather than having to guess whether you'd have to share or how far up the train to go. Because the staff were spread out along the platform, it also meant there were people able to help with pushchairs and the like.

All in all, a very pleasant morning out. Having to choose a train and sit in a specified compartment (I imagine you could express a preference, but I was quite happy two down from the front of the train) may not please the purists, but the general public didn't seem to mind.

 

[bramling]

Have you seen how busy holiday destinations are now? Covid pushed the means and ability to do things differently to before booking is one.
Since mobile phone and internet technology became widespread I can't remember the last major attraction, event, concert, big football match that didn't require pre-booking to guarantee a seat, even ones that don't sell out push tickets out early by offering early bird discounts i've even needed to pre-book free events. Advanced booking allows the venue to determine a whole load of things such as staffing, stock based on expected numbers. Busy heritage lines have seen a benefit certainly if they are paying staff to run the services. Will they need 10 carriages or five!

And just like your dog analogy you never know if you'll be sat next to an eight stone teenager or in-between two twenty stone blokes, or behind a seven footer. It's not unlike the real railways. You can ensure that all your group can sit together though.

I saw how busy (some) holiday destinations were in 2020 and 2021, but I’m not sure that’s the case in 2022. Unlike last year, this year I’ve found no problem booking hotels at short notice, including in traditionally higher demand locations. Likewise at attractions there just hasn’t so far this year in my experience been the “mobbed” feeling that was the case at times last year.

Now I know we’re not into the school holidays yet, and I know foreign holidays are getting a load of bad publicity on TV just at the moment because of the travel issues, but things seem to be pointing towards 2020 and 2021 not being repeated to the same extent. This is surely likely to be exacerbated as people redirect their disposable income towards inflated cost-of-living essentials. Oh, and we’re also well into a traditional British summer of unreliable weather, which if it lasts all summer like it did last year is likely to remind people why they didn’t take U.K. holidays in the first place.

All this pre-booking is a Covid solution looking for a Covid problem. Covid is much less of an issue now, and that seems likely to remain the case now thankfully, perpetuating such measures I just can’t see working well going forward.

 

[trebor79]

I saw how busy (some) holiday destinations were in 2020 and 2021, but I’m not sure that’s the case in 2022. Unlike last year, this year I’ve found no problem booking hotels at short notice, including in traditionally higher demand locations. Likewise at attractions there just hasn’t so far this year in my experience been the “mobbed” feeling that was the case at times last year.

Agree, there are still loads of cottages available to book in Cornwall in high summer, for example. Very unusual for this time of year.

 

[nanstallon]

Agree, there are still loads of cottages available to book in Cornwall in high summer, for example. Very unusual for this time of year.

Perhaps they have priced themselves out of the market. Not just in Cornwall. In 2020, I had a room in a very nice hotel in London with swimming pool, bar etc for £75 per night; now it is £259 per night.

 

[Runningaround]

Agree, there are still loads of cottages available to book in Cornwall in high summer, for example. Very unusual for this time of year.

But you wouldn't risk turning up at the front door expecting a room in mid july, you wouldn't go to a concert in the same way, if you are going to guarantee seats together for a family room at an attraction you book in advance. If you turn up on the day after travelling 200 miles and you can't get a ride then tough you could of booked ahead or go to the un restricted beach in the rain. Covid has accelerated a lot of online systems including shopping they haven't been reduced.

 

[Runningaround]

Perhaps they have priced themselves out of the market. Not just in Cornwall. In 2020, I had a room in a very nice hotel in London with swimming pool, bar etc for £75 per night; now it is £259 per night.

Or two years of no choice but staying in the UK. Many will be travelling to get away from it or see relatives.
Still I wouldn't turn up at an airport or consider flying without booking both flight, tickets for events and hotel beforehand.

 

[paul1609]

I saw how busy (some) holiday destinations were in 2020 and 2021, but I’m not sure that’s the case in 2022. Unlike last year, this year I’ve found no problem booking hotels at short notice, including in traditionally higher demand locations. Likewise at attractions there just hasn’t so far this year in my experience been the “mobbed” feeling that was the case at times last year.

Now I know we’re not into the school holidays yet, and I know foreign holidays are getting a load of bad publicity on TV just at the moment because of the travel issues, but things seem to be pointing towards 2020 and 2021 not being repeated to the same extent.

That's not the experience down here on the Kent & East Sussex coast. Occupancy of all types of accommodation remain very high by pre pandemic standards. The recent half term week was full even down to campsites.

 

[eldomtom2]

Really? It was always non-volunteer run. It can't be comfortable for local paid employees training up unpaid volunteers(usually from the West Midlands as is common in the areas Heritage Rail sector) who could replace them and can turn up as they feel.
Or are they using the DWP schemes to give unemployed people work experience as cheap labour to do the hard unglamorous jobs like they've done in the past? Only benefit they gave was a PTS.

I have no knowledge of the specifics, but it is very easy to find proof that volunteers work on the VoR.

 

[Llanigraham]

The VoR does have volunteers but they aren’t involved with the actual running of trains. They appear mostly to deal with things like painting staions and keeping them tidy

Volunteers during 2020 - Issuu

Our volunteers meet once a week, and through their efforts our stations always look at their best no matter what the weather. If you wish to join our amazing band of volunteers helping to maintain our stations then please get in touch via email: [email protected]

issuu.com

After a very happy VOR Christmas dinner in 2019, the volunteers hibernated until the rain eased in midJanuary. (2020!) Then we sprang into action clearing fallen branches from the station platforms, clearing dropped litter from the car park and garden at Aberystwyth and lifting a wind-flattened conifer in the Devil’s Bridge garden. The conifer was still alive so we replanted it with a new pole.​

​

 

[Dai Corner]

The VoR does have volunteers but they aren’t involved with the actual running of trains. They appear mostly to deal with things like painting staions and keeping them tidy

Volunteers during 2020 - Issuu

Our volunteers meet once a week, and through their efforts our stations always look at their best no matter what the weather. If you wish to join our amazing band of volunteers helping to maintain our stations then please get in touch via email: [email protected]

issuu.com

​

Presumably because it was privatised by BR rather than being closed and subsequently being reopened under new ownership.

 

[paul1609]

Presumably because it was privatised by BR rather than being closed and subsequently being reopened under new ownership.

I think at privitisation it was sold to the owner of the Brecon Mountain and his partner when it continued to operate as a non volunteer railway. In 1996 that partnership broke up and it was sold to a local trust who set up the current operating company with some new plans such as moving out of the main station and introducing volunteers but the operating roles are paid. Even being as far away as Kent I've seen flyers from them in the early 90s trying to recruit firemen from heritage railways as summer job employees. I've an idea a couple of our volunteers went there as a summer job from Uni.

 

[Runningaround]

The VoR does have volunteers but they aren’t involved with the actual running of trains. They appear mostly to deal with things like painting staions and keeping them tidy

Volunteers during 2020 - Issuu

Our volunteers meet once a week, and through their efforts our stations always look at their best no matter what the weather. If you wish to join our amazing band of volunteers helping to maintain our stations then please get in touch via email: [email protected]

issuu.com

​

Not too different from the groups that adopt stations in the area on the mainline to provide a nice, smart environment. Shame Network Rail or TFW hasn't got the same enthusiasm of making new stations and the railway look as welcoming.

 

[Runningaround]

I think at privitisation it was sold to the owner of the Brecon Mountain and his partner when it continued to operate as a non volunteer railway. In 1996 that partnership broke up and it was sold to a local trust who set up the current operating company with some new plans such as moving out of the main station and introducing volunteers but the operating roles are paid. Even being as far away as Kent I've seen flyers from them in the early 90s trying to recruit firemen from heritage railways as summer job employees. I've an idea a couple of our volunteers went there as a summer job from Uni.

It would be a hard ask for employed staff to train and pass volunteers if that led to them being replaced by them later in a cost cutting measure. Similar to RSPB and other charities they employ and take on volunteers who gain benefits in terms of work experience and qualifications with the aim being employment in the sector.
I'm sure Talyllyn offered PTS' certificates for new deal claimants to boost there chances of getting a job on the mainline railway.

Voluntary is fine but it's exactly that so if covid is worrying or has impacted its non-paid staff then then they are entitled to not bother turning up, if relaxing the rules has scared them and replacements cannot be sourced then adjustments have to be made, what choice do the operators have other than employing staff?

 

[Bikeman78]

But you wouldn't risk turning up at the front door expecting a room in mid july, you wouldn't go to a concert in the same way, if you are going to guarantee seats together for a family room at an attraction you book in advance. If you turn up on the day after travelling 200 miles and you can't get a ride then tough you could of booked ahead or go to the un restricted beach in the rain. Covid has accelerated a lot of online systems including shopping they haven't been reduced.

The Snowdon Mountain Railway was largely book ahead long before Covid. I've never understood the attraction. For me the attraction is the achievement of having walked up and hopefully the view from the top. Going up on a train on a bad weather day achieves none of that. Hanging about in the wind for 30 minutes with no view isn't my idea of fun. I certainly wouldn't waste my time walking up in the rain. I'm happy to pay the extra for a steam train but clearly that isn't the reason most people go up there.

 

[bramling]

The Snowdon Mountain Railway was largely book ahead long before Covid. I've never understood the attraction. For me the attraction is the achievement of having walked up and hopefully the view from the top. Going up on a train on a bad weather day achieves none of that. Hanging about in the wind for 30 minutes with no view isn't my idea of fun. I certainly wouldn't waste my time walking up in the rain. I'm happy to pay the extra for a steam train but clearly that isn't the reason most people go up there.

Exactly. SMR get quite a few bad reviews on places like Trip Adviser, and (apart from quite a few relating to the car parking at Llanberis) most of these relate to weather and the carriages being too cramped.

In my view it *is* worth doing the train ride, especially on the steam, for its own sake, but don’t expect views as by having to book ahead you’re taking a complete gamble with the weather, even in the height of summer. Walking up avoids all of this, and has the added benefit that at times like June with the long days it’s possible to be up there in daylight at times when it’s fairly quiet, in particular during the evening.

Obviously not everyone is going to be able to do the climb as even the more sedate Llanberis Path is not going to be a walk in the park for everyone, and still requires some deal of preparation.

To be fair, due to the very limited capacity and very high demand, it’s difficult to see how SMR could do things differently. But they’re a special, if not unique, case due to these two factors.

 

[John Luxton]

Exactly. SMR get quite a few bad reviews on places like Trip Adviser, and (apart from quite a few relating to the car parking at Llanberis) most of these relate to weather and the carriages being too cramped.

Though fairly close to me it is probably my least visited narrow gauge line in Wales mainly due to the fact it does get so busy.

My most recent visit was August 2014 I managed to get a space on the steam service booking on line just two days before after checking the weather.

The premium for the steam service is worth it as seating is (unless it has been changed) 2 + 1 much better than being shoehorned into the modern diesel propelled stock.

 

[Techniquest]

You've all reminded me that Snowdonia is on my list to do, so is the mountain railway. I must make sure I investigate doing it before the school holidays when it will inevitably be busy, I'm guessing it's possible to book the train coming down and not have to pay for it both ways? I want to do the walk up, for the challenge, but will happily rest on the train back!

 

[Nippy]

You've all reminded me that Snowdonia is on my list to do, so is the mountain railway. I must make sure I investigate doing it before the school holidays when it will inevitably be busy, I'm guessing it's possible to book the train coming down and not have to pay for it both ways? I want to do the walk up, for the challenge, but will happily rest on the train back!

I walked up it about 15 years ago. When I went to see about going back down they said only of there is space as we give priority to those with return tickets. They said I’d have to wait for ages so I walked back down. This was in late June.

 

[James H]

We walked up Snowdon last October on a beautiful autumn day.

Although they were advertising pre-booking only, when you got to Clogwyn station (the current terminus) there was a sign saying you could ask the guard if there was space. We did and there was.

The single fare to come down from Clogwyn was pretty hefty at £22 each, but I wanted to travel on the railway and we were also in a hurry to get back to Llanberis for the last bus back to Betws-y-Coed

 

[Runningaround]

I'm not sure if Snowdonia Mountain Railway is really a heritage line, it's doing what it was always built for and possibly the first visitor focused line, the railway being built as part of the package of the main attraction. And does the first train arrive before the Cafe at the top opens or do staff walk up to open it before it arrives?