British Rail Class 91 and Mark IV coaches where are they going to go?

[TheKnightWho]

Seems to work on a 395. They are quite clever. The doors slide shut and then they are pushed outwards to seal them. Obviously not flush with with the exterior like a plug door but no wind noise even when stood by one at 140mph.

Not sure of the effect on aerodynamic drag though.

This makes a lot of sense! I suppose there will be some economic reason for choosing them over plug doors, too!

 

[The Ham]

No - I'm talking about using the Voyagers on Waterloo-Exeter, not the Mk4's. The Voyagers should be ideal for that route

There is a thread here for future used of the Voyagers, I make the suggestion that they are used on that route, although in partnership with EMU's between Salisbury and Waterloo once the wires reach that far out.

 

[randyrippley]

There is a thread here for future used of the Voyagers, I make the suggestion that they are used on that route, although in partnership with EMU's between Salisbury and Waterloo once the wires reach that far out.

how easy would it be to make them electro-diesel with 750v pickups?

 

[The Ham]

how easy would it be to make them electro-diesel with 750v pickups?

Probably expensive enough that it wouldn't be worth doing, as I would guess it would require a substantial rewire of the coaches.

 

[66Yorks]

Could someone please explain what the intended purpose of the blunt end was? I think I have only seen one/two instances of this type of working.

Blunt end is a non-issue as they can still do 110mph running blut and the sleeper doesn't require any faster than that.

They are no good though. Same ETS index as the 90's (95 I think). The 92's are the only locos currently in the country that have the power to run the new 'mk5' sleeper stock due to be delivered in the next few years.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Could someone please explain what the intended purpose of the blunt end was? I think I have only seen one/two instances of this type of working.

It's simply an aesthetic choice to make the train look like a single unit.

 

[jopsuk]

Could someone please explain what the intended purpose of the blunt end was? I think I have only seen one/two instances of this type of working.

Originally the plan was that the locos would be used for other purposes such as mail trains, at 100mph max, when not needed for passenger trains. For practicality therefore a full second cab was included. But for passenger trains to improve the aerodynamics it's better if the inner end is vertical to reduce the gap to the carriages. The alternative could have been to make the locos strictly single ended (a bit like HST power cars) but the second cab does give some operational flexibility, so occasionally if for example there's a DVT problem a loco will run round and haul the train that way. Obviously the other alternative would be a symmetrical double ended loco like the Class 90 or 89.

 

[Western Lord]

Originally the plan was that the locos would be used for other purposes such as mail trains, at 100mph max, when not needed for passenger trains. For practicality therefore a full second cab was included. But for passenger trains to improve the aerodynamics it's better if the inner end is vertical to reduce the gap to the carriages. The alternative could have been to make the locos strictly single ended (a bit like HST power cars) but the second cab does give some operational flexibility, so occasionally if for example there's a DVT problem a loco will run round and haul the train that way. Obviously the other alternative would be a symmetrical double ended loco like the Class 90 or 89.

The main "other purpose" was East Coast sleeper trains rather than mail. By the time they entered service the sleepers had gone to the WCML.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Just seen an article in the March edition of Railway Magazine that states a proposal has been put to the DfT for using converted mk3 & Mk4 coaching stock (after redundancy) on high speed light freight/parcels services between London and Scotland, it suggests this has been thwarted previously due to lack of suitable vehicles, if it took off perhaps there could also be a use for a handfull of 91's/DVT's retained for such a service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite possibly. After all, the postal EMUs are basically 321s with different doors, no windows and a Networker snout end, while the French had the postal TGVs.

 

[Townsend Hook]

Quite possibly. After all, the postal EMUs are basically 321s with different doors, no windows and a Networker snout end.

Plus third rail capability

 

[D6975]

The main "other purpose" was East Coast sleeper trains rather than mail. By the time they entered service the sleepers had gone to the WCML.

Yes, I remember that. The ECML sleepers were moved to the WCML as a temporary measure during the electrification work. Turned out not to be so temporary, they never came back and the number of sleepers on the WCML was subsequently slashed as well.

 

[dubscottie]

Just seen an article in the March edition of Railway Magazine that states a proposal has been put to the DfT for using converted mk3 & Mk4 coaching stock (after redundancy) on high speed light freight/parcels services between London and Scotland, it suggests this has been thwarted previously due to lack of suitable vehicles, if it took off perhaps there could also be a use for a handfull of 91's/DVT's retained for such a service?

IIRC EWS tried converting a Mk 3 for high speed mail use but the body became too weak (I believe the coach lay at the RTC for years after).

Might work with Mk 4 though as they have a simpler bodyshell.

 

[Brystar35]

I am brylove7 by the way just wanted to go thru a name change for the Forums so don't worry i started this thread, anyways its nice to meet yall!!!!!!!, also this is my new username.

Anyways so the Class 91 will be scrapped that is really messed up, they have alot of potential especially they are really powerful electric locomotives.

And the Mark IV's are going to continue YAY!!!!!! also i heard of the new Mark V coming soon for the Caledonian Sleeper? is there any new pictures of the Mark V coaches or not yet so far?

 

[Domh245]

Anyways so the Class 91 will be scrapped that is really messed up, they have alot of potential especially they are really powerful electric locomotives.

Not really. If they've reached the ends of their service life (which they more or less have), they aren't in demand anywhere (they aren't), nor can they be cheaply altered to provide extra capacity (again, they can't) then there is no reason not to scrap them. And they could be the most powerful loco in the world, but if they can't haul a container train or have a sufficient ETS rating for the new sleeper stock, then they don't have a future on NR metals.

And the Mark IV's are going to continue YAY!!!!!! also i heard of the new Mark V coming soon for the Caledonian Sleeper? is there any new pictures of the Mark V coaches or not yet so far?

The Mk V stock has not been photographed because it hasn't been made yet. I'd be quite surprised if the body panels were done yet, let alone assembled into a coach

 

[Emblematic]

The documentary I linked to earlier, which I've just got around to watching again, does mention a design life of 30 years for the 91s, which is pretty much exactly matches the service life by the time they are displaced from the ECML.
Which is not to say that they won't have a future use, but even if not, they will have accomplished all their designers expected of them.
The worst I can imagine happening is someone like Europheonix taking them on, with a view to finding an export opportunity. I'd be surprised if there aren't operators somewhere, particularly those with tight budgets, who would relish having a fleet of express electric locos at a bargain price.

 

[richieb1971]

There seems to be a merry go round of selling British, buying foreign.

In 10 years time you'll have better luck seeing "British" in Europe then you would in Britain.

 

[CosherB]

There seems to be a merry go round of selling British, buying foreign.

In 10 years time you'll have better luck seeing "British" in Europe then you would in Britain.

Depends if you consider the British-built Class 800/801 as British ..... and the Italian-built Class 802 as Italian .....

 

[TheKnightWho]

There seems to be a merry go round of selling British, buying foreign.

In 10 years time you'll have better luck seeing "British" in Europe then you would in Britain.

Is that really such a bad thing? If we're selling products domestically or abroad, so long as people have jobs I don't care.

 

[Geezertronic]

Depends if you consider the British-built Class 800/801 as British ..... and the Italian-built Class 802 as Italian .....

Are the 800/801s actually built in Britain or just assembled in Britain as I understand the original 390s were?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends if you consider the British-built Class 800/801 as British ..... and the Italian-built Class 802 as Italian .....

These days products like that don't really come from any country. The parts come from all over the world, and then they are slotted back together in an arbitrary location.

 

[richieb1971]

Is that really such a bad thing? If we're selling products domestically or abroad, so long as people have jobs I don't care.

I agree jobs are important. I just don't see why Europe see's our old stuff as "desirable" where we don't. We seem to find foreign traction much more desirable.

One thing I've learned about this forum and the railways in Britain is that "profit" comes above all else. We have not positioned ourselves where we can do both "profit" and "British Preservation" at the same time. And thats because we are not competitive in the train making business anymore.

Once one or two Inter City 125's are preserved (if that happens). It will be the last iconic British train that the NRM will have to worry about.

 

[Domh245]

Once one or two Inter City 125's are preserved (if that happens). It will be the last iconic British train that the NRM will have to worry about.

I don't know. You could quite easily make the case for a 377 (or other electrostar) to be preserved as an example of the sort of suburban trains we used to have during the years of massive growth before everything reverted to Longitudinally seated 12 coach mega-tubes At the very least, they are somewhat iconic to a whole generation of commuters across the South East

But in all seriousness, I can't see why not to preserve a -star when the time comes. They aren't pretty, nor unique, but then again, neither were the standard class 5MTs

 

[jopsuk]

These days products like that don't really come from any country. The parts come from all over the world, and then they are slotted back together in an arbitrary location.

Quite. Where is a Airbus built?

 

[Tempest3K]

Once one or two Inter City 125's are preserved (if that happens).

Working on it - www.125group.org.uk

Back on topic - I'm sure someone will come up with a use for 91's & MK4's and as always it'll be something we haven't thought of!

 

[TheKnightWho]

I agree jobs are important. I just don't see why Europe see's our old stuff as "desirable" where we don't. We seem to find foreign traction much more desirable.

One thing I've learned about this forum and the railways in Britain is that "profit" comes above all else. We have not positioned ourselves where we can do both "profit" and "British Preservation" at the same time. And thats because we are not competitive in the train making business anymore.

Once one or two Inter City 125's are preserved (if that happens). It will be the last iconic British train that the NRM will have to worry about.

But what's the issue if we just happen to make something that someone on the continent wants best, and the best product for us is made abroad? I'd rather have the best train for the job that something that doesn't really suit the job solely on the basis it was built here.

There are a myriad reasons why it makes sense to do things this way, mostly revolving around the nature of the manufacturing plants and who has business interests where.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Once one or two Inter City 125's are preserved (if that happens). It will be the last iconic British train that the NRM will have to worry about.

I beg to differ. Don't forget the title of this topic, the class 91s and mark 4 coaches. In my opinion, the NRM should be making plans to preserve both 91031 and 91010 when they are withdrawn from service. The former is worthy of preservation as the last loco built at Crewe works and the latter as the fastest loco ever to run on the UK rail network. I'd like to see 91010 kept in the Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight livery and displayed next to Mallard at York with 91031 returned to Swallow livery with a set of matching mark 4s (DVT+FO+RFB+TSO+TSO+TSOE at minimum) to run occasional railtours (unless a third-party preserves such a set, in which case 91031 could be put on display at the other NRM site, or possibly next to the APT-P in Crewe Heritage Centre).

IC225 may not be quite as iconic as IC125, but in my view deserves to be.

Sadly it looks like most of the 91s are to suffer premature redundancy as the new IEP fleet arrives, but the mark 4 coaches should be cascadable.

 

[sprinterguy]

Sadly it looks like most of the 91s are to suffer premature redundancy as the new IEP fleet arrives, but the mark 4 coaches should be cascadable.

Premature? They'll be thirty years old, or just over - A fairly typical innings for fast passenger locos designed with a specific route in mind (the same length of time as the 87s spent in squadron passenger service, and ten years longer than the Deltics managed).

 

[47802]

Premature? They'll be thirty years old, or just over - A fairly typical innings for fast passenger locos designed with a specific route in mind (the same length of time that the 87s spent in squadron passenger service, and ten years longer than the Deltics managed).

Yes but we know that Rhydgaled has a obsession that anything electric has to last at least 40 years. No doubt if some of Anglia 321's go to the scrapper in few years he will not be happy either and will no doubt tell us that the 317's should be lasting another 20 years. This is despite to fact that such as the Anglia Winning bidder has clearly concluded it makes more financial sense to get a load of cheaper to run new trains, as of course did the DFT with the 91's.

 

[59CosG95]

Yes but we know that Rhydgaled has a obsession that anything electric has to last at least 40 years. No doubt if some of Anglia 321's go to the scrapper in few years he will not be happy either and will no doubt tell us that the 317's should be lasting another 20 years. This is despite to fact that such as the Anglia Winning bidder has clearly concluded it makes more financial sense to get a load of cheaper to run new trains, as of course did the DFT with the 91's.

Rhydgaled would HATE living in Japan, some of the 1999-built 700 Series Shinkansen sets have already been scrapped!