British Railway Passenger Network Map 1977

[Cowley]

Why isn't Poole to Weymouth shown on this enlargement?

I assume that it’s because this one is a Western Region version? Completely accidental that I bought that one considering where I’m from.
I’d have bought any of them if they’d popped up on eBay regardless of what region they represented...

 

[hexagon789]

Here you go everyone as promised.
This is the 1967 map:

View attachment 77874

Thanks for posting that Cowley, it makes my error over Strathmore very obvious now!

 

[hexagon789]

Isle of Man is interesting
It shows the Electric Railway, and the now-closed steam lines to Peel and Ramsey, but not the open line to Port Erin

Wasn't there a brief period where there was only about three daily trains on the IoM lines? Something like two Douglas-Peel and a fill-in turn to Ramsey or something?

Might be getting muddled with something else

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thanks for posting that excellent snapshot of the network in 1967.

It must have been designed just after the closure of the New Romney branch in that year.

I will stick my neck out and say that there isn't really anything on that map that should have been closed.

A view that had been somewhat pre-empted by the 'Network for Development' map that had been jointly published by the Government and BR over the combined signatures of Barbara Castle and Stanley Raymond in March 1967. This envisaged many further closures such as Kyle, Mallaig, Waverley, Cumbrian Coast, Settle & Carlisle, Ilkley, Lincolnshire, Wisbech, Derham, Hunstanton, Matlock-Chinley, Oxford-Cambridge, Uckfield, Rye, Swanage, Minehead, Central Wales, Cambrian Coast, Newquay, Falmouth, Meldon, etc.

 

[Cowley]

Thanks for posting that Cowley, it makes my error over Strathmore very obvious now!

To be fair to you that was an awful photo that I posted first...

 

[Cowley]

A view that had been somewhat pre-empted by the 'Network for Development' map that had been jointly published by the Government and BR over the combined signatures of Barbara Castle and Stanley Raymond in March 1967. This envisaged many further closures such as Kyle, Mallaig, Waverley, Cumbrian Coast, Settle & Carlisle, Ilkley, Lincolnshire, Wisbech, Derham, Hunstanton, Matlock-Chinley, Oxford-Cambridge, Uckfield, Rye, Swanage, Minehead, Central Wales, Cambrian Coast, Newquay, Falmouth, Meldon, etc.

It’s really interesting looking at that map from the point of view of someone my age (born in 1973).
We all know what happened after that obviously, but seeing some of the lines on there that were still part of the main network is tantalisingly close (especially in my area) to what in my mind should be the network nowadays.

I make no judgements about the decisions taken with that statement (he says veering away from the usual arguments), but it’s just fascinating to look at it from the point of view of someone my age.

 

[Calthrop]

Wasn't there a brief period where there was only about three daily trains on the IoM lines? Something like two Douglas-Peel and a fill-in turn to Ramsey or something?

Might be getting muddled with something else

I seem to recall, concerning the IOMR's brief renaissance under Lord Ailsa in 1967 - 68: in '67 -- the year of the map -- there were services on the Port Erin line between Douglas and Castletown only; some big public-works project was taking place (sewage systems come to mind, but that could well be a false memory) -- work on which, lasted for many months and closely followed rail line's route Castletown --- Port Erin: things were such that while the work was taking place, it was impossible to run trains over that section. By the start of the 1968 season, the project was finished; and in '68, services ran the whole length of the Douglas -- Port Erin line. It could be speculated that the map's makers got the story re this matter, rather wrong; and imagined that the whole line would be out of action throughout 1967.

I notice that the Snaefell Mountain Railway is not shown either; but that could well be caused by the BR mappers' not considering it a "proper" railway.

 

[Sprinter107]

The old Great Central line had been trucated at both ends on that map from the late 1960s, but where was the connection to get the dmus on the Arkwright Street to Rugby Central shuttles onto the now isolated route, and what depot provided them ?

 

[yorksrob]

The old Great Central line had been trucated at both ends on that map from the late 1960s, but where was the connection to get the dmus on the Arkwright Street to Rugby Central shuttles onto the now isolated route, and what depot provided them ?

There was a link to the main line at Nottingham which was retained. Trains would have to continue North of Arkwright Street, past Weekday Cross junction and reverse.

 

[yorksrob]

It’s really interesting looking at that map from the point of view of someone my age (born in 1973).
We all know what happened after that obviously, but seeing some of the lines on there that were still part of the main network is tantalisingly close (especially in my area) to what in my mind should be the network nowadays.

I make no judgements about the decisions taken with that statement (he says veering away from the usual arguments), but it’s just fascinating to look at it from the point of view of someone my age.

It certainly seems to include the majority of routes that people vocally call for re-instatement today.

It also includes most of the larger towns that are currently not connected now.

 

[yorksrob]

A view that had been somewhat pre-empted by the 'Network for Development' map that had been jointly published by the Government and BR over the combined signatures of Barbara Castle and Stanley Raymond in March 1967. This envisaged many further closures such as Kyle, Mallaig, Waverley, Cumbrian Coast, Settle & Carlisle, Ilkley, Lincolnshire, Wisbech, Derham, Hunstanton, Matlock-Chinley, Oxford-Cambridge, Uckfield, Rye, Swanage, Minehead, Central Wales, Cambrian Coast, Newquay, Falmouth, Meldon, etc.

It's an interesting period in the railway's history. At around this time, Barbara Castle herself had voiced an aspiration for a 'stabilised' railway network. Isn't it also the case that a lot of routes on the map at the time recieved operating grants and had terefore been "saved" even if only for the present. My interpretation is that by this time there was perhaps everything to play for, however the railway had too many enemies in the civil service - and perhaps too many of their fellow travellers in senior management

 

[Sprinter107]

There was a link to the main line at Nottingham which was retained. Trains would have to continue North of Arkwright Street, past Weekday Cross junction and reverse.

Cheers mate. Thanks for that.

 

[hexagon789]

To be fair to you that was an awful photo that I posted first...

Well it was blurry, but I feel I still should've noticed! I guess Strathmore did go in '66 it would seem

 

[hexagon789]

I seem to recall, concerning the IOMR's brief renaissance under Lord Ailsa in 1967 - 68: in '67 -- the year of the map -- there were services on the Port Erin line between Douglas and Castletown only; some big public-works project was taking place (sewage systems come to mind, but that could well be a false memory) -- work on which, lasted for many months and closely followed rail line's route Castletown --- Port Erin: things were such that while the work was taking place, it was impossible to run trains over that section. By the start of the 1968 season, the project was finished; and in '68, services ran the whole length of the Douglas -- Port Erin line. It could be speculated that the map's makers got the story re this matter, rather wrong; and imagined that the whole line would be out of action throughout 1967.

I notice that the Snaefell Mountain Railway is not shown either; but that could well be caused by the BR mappers' not considering it a "proper" railway.

That sounds extremely feasible, I did also do a bit of digging myself and it seems that for a period in the 1965 the steam-worked IoM had only one working engine so services were 2 Douglas-Port Erin and a fill-in return Douglas-Peel. So I got the year and routes wrong but remembered the service paucity at least!

 

[Calthrop]

That sounds extremely feasible, I did also do a bit of digging myself and it seems that for a period in the 1965 the steam-worked IoM had only one working engine so services were 2 Douglas-Port Erin and a fill-in return Douglas-Peel. So I got the year and routes wrong but remembered the service paucity at least!

I have the picture that the old Isle of Man Railway, as a normal commercial company, was in all respects in very "low water" in its last two or three years -- whereby services had at least at times -- as per your above post -- to be on the meagre side. It occurs to me, though, that in a situation of only one operable steam loco; would they not have had the ex-County Donegal diesel railcars, to help out? Or maybe their situation, parlous in many ways, was such that that that wasn't an option?

Certainly the Lord Ailsa regime used in public passenger service, both steam and ex-Donegal railcars. A friend of mine visited Man in 1968, and covered the IOMR system: he sent me a postcard including the line "All superb, except the Donegal railcars, and they are at least interesting -- I've never heard a diesel clank before !"

 

[L+Y]

Interesting in my part of the world to see the Ormskirk line as "Intercity", correctly- but the Wigan-Southport line too? So far as I know, there was nothing remotely "Intercity" on this route at the time!

 

[hexagon789]

I have the picture that the old Isle of Man Railway, as a normal commercial company, was in all respects in very "low water" in its last two or three years -- whereby services had at least at times -- as per your above post -- to be on the meagre side. It occurs to me, though, that in a situation of only one operable steam loco; would they not have had the ex-County Donegal diesel railcars, to help out? Or maybe their situation, parlous in many ways, was such that that that wasn't an option?

Definitely the low-point of the IoM in many respects, perhaps the railcars required maintenance/parts and that wasn't available/too expensive and was thus ruled out in favour of steam. Though you would think the railcars would be cheaper to run!

Doesn't really account for the map though...that's still a ponderable

 

[Calthrop]

Doesn't really account for the map though...that's still a ponderable

Conspiracy theory department -- certain folk in high places were keen for Lord Ailsa's undertaking to fail miserably, and arranged for various things to happen, to make that more likely: one instance, misleading potential holidaying users of the railway by showing on the BR map, its more financially hopeless Peel and Ramsey lines -- and omitting the busier and more useful Port Erin route ...

 

[hexagon789]

Conspiracy theory department -- certain folk in high places were keen for Lord Ailsa's undertaking to fail miserably, and arranged for various things to happen, to make that more likely: one instance, misleading potential holidaying users of the railway by showing on the BR map, its more financially hopeless Peel and Ramsey lines -- and omitting the busier and more useful Port Erin route ...

If that is indeed true, I think that's utterly despicable

 

[randyrippley]

Definitely the low-point of the IoM in many respects, perhaps the railcars required maintenance/parts and that wasn't available/too expensive and was thus ruled out in favour of steam. Though you would think the railcars would be cheaper to run!

Doesn't really account for the map though...that's still a ponderable

I'm sure I've read somewhere the railcars never went into passenger service: one got used by the PW team while the other became a spares christmas tree. In passenger use they would have to be used as a pair, and that simply wasn't possible. Last time I saw them was 25 years ago and they were in a hell of a state, the abandoned one was a wreck, the other a near-bare shell

 

[Calthrop]

If that is indeed true, I think that's utterly despicable

My post was meant humorously -- trying to dream up a conspiracy theory of the craziness-level of the moon landings being faked; or all the world's leaders -- including, and in fact especially, the British Royal Family -- being in reality, shapeshifting reptilian aliens from outer space...

I'm sure I've read somewhere the railcars never went into passenger service: one got used by the PW team while the other became a spares christmas tree. In passenger use they would have to be used as a pair, and that simply wasn't possible. Last time I saw them was 25 years ago and they were in a hell of a state, the abandoned one was a wreck, the other a near-bare shell

(My bolding) -- respectfully, my understanding has been otherwise: viz., the railcars were used in passenger service by the old IOMR from the time of its acquiring them, to its ceasing to operate rail services in late 1965; and in the Ailsa period of 1967 and '68. They have indeed -- as I understand things -- never been used in passenger service by the various operators of the Douglas -- Port Erin line from 1969 on. As mentioned by me, upthread -- a friend of mine visited Man in summer 1968, and travelled both on steam trains and on railcars. And (apologies in advance -- I have zero skill in doing links, so won't even try): I Googled "Isle of Man Railway Donegal railcars": which delivered to me (near bottom of first page), a thread from these Forums' as-it-were "rival" National Preservation -- from 2009: I at any rate, saw no way of accessing that directly on the NP site -- generally discussing the railcars. One poster told of how the railcars "kept the IOMR going in the early 1960s, when they ran virtually the entire service from the end of September to June" (from the context, it was then found possible to run them as a pair) -- goes on to telling in a little more detail, the pattern of railcar vis-a-vis steam workings in the early '60s. Another poster reminisces about a spell on the IOM in summer 1968, including railcar journeys (sometimes getting lumbered with railcar, when he'd hoped for steam haulage !).

 

[randyrippley]

My post was meant humorously -- trying to dream up a conspiracy theory of the craziness-level of the moon landings being faked; or all the world's leaders -- including, and in fact especially, the British Royal Family -- being in reality, shapeshifting reptilian aliens from outer space...



(My bolding) -- respectfully, my understanding has been otherwise: viz., the railcars were used in passenger service by the old IOMR from the time of its acquiring them, to its ceasing to operate rail services in late 1965; and in the Ailsa period of 1967 and '68. They have indeed -- as I understand things -- never been used in passenger service by the various operators of the Douglas -- Port Erin line from 1969 on. As mentioned by me, upthread -- a friend of mine visited Man in summer 1968, and travelled both on steam trains and on railcars. And (apologies in advance -- I have zero skill in doing links, so won't even try): I Googled "Isle of Man Railway Donegal railcars": which delivered to me (near bottom of first page), a thread from these Forums' as-it-were "rival" National Preservation -- from 2009: I at any rate, saw no way obi the early 1960s, when they ran virtually the entire service from the end of September to June" (from the context, it was then found possible to run them as a pair) -- goes on to telling in a little more detail, the pattern of railcar vis-a-vis steam workings in the early '60s. Another poster reminisces about a spell on the IOM in summer 1968, including railcar journeys (sometimes getting lumbered with railcar, when he'd hoped for steam haulage !).

My memory must be getting faulty..........I'll have to dig out my old magazines and refresh it! What is certain is that by the mid 1980s those two railcars were unusable - one used as a PW mobile shed, the other abandoned round the back of Douglas shed

 

[Springs Branch]

I have the LMR version of the Passenger Network map dated 4 Sept 1967.
The full national map is identical to the one posted by @Cowley in post #50.
The reverse side is an enlargement of just the London Midland Region. Lots of interesting closed lines to be found on there too - plus some long-gone stations (Manchester Central and Exchange, Chester Northgate, Bury Knowsley St......).

 

[Springs Branch]

Here's an enlargement of the Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester areas.

 

[hexagon789]

My post was meant humorously -- trying to dream up a conspiracy theory of the craziness-level of the moon landings being faked; or all the world's leaders -- including, and in fact especially, the British Royal Family -- being in reality, shapeshifting reptilian aliens from outer space...

Apologies I thought what you said had a grain of truth about it

 

[hexagon789]

I'm sure I've read somewhere the railcars never went into passenger service: one got used by the PW team while the other became a spares christmas tree. In passenger use they would have to be used as a pair, and that simply wasn't possible. Last time I saw them was 25 years ago and they were in a hell of a state, the abandoned one was a wreck, the other a near-bare shell

You wonder why they bothered to purchase them then, given the state of finances and all

 

[Calthrop]

Apologies I thought what you said had a grain of truth about it

What is it they say? -- "Never attribute to malice, what can be explained by ordinary everyday stupidity".

 

[KevinTurvey]

The 1967 map is a really interesting snapshot in time.
Hard to believe the amount of lines still open in and around Lincolnshire, and East Anglia at this time. Louth and Willoughby being on an Intercity route too!

 

[Revaulx]

I'd love to look at Table 89 to see what was running Tyldesley to Wigan.

Apart from that line and Rose Hill to Macc, all the lines on here in the Manchester area that subsequently closed would be useful to have around today. I suppose the latter if electrified could constitue an alternative route into Manchester avoiding the congested Cheadle Hulme and Stockport areas, but it would be a long and slow way round!

 

[yorksrob]

The station at Leigh Lancs would have been tremendously useful to me over the last ten years or so.