British Railway Passenger Network Map 1977

[Revaulx]

The Leigh loop was very well patronised to the end, despite awful timetabling.

It went at the same time as Exchange was closed. I wonder if the two were somehow connected, and it was the first appearance of what is generally regarded as a contemporary problem: where to put trains terminating in Manchester from the west.

 

[yorksrob]

The Leigh loop was very well patronised to the end, despite awful timetabling.

That's good to know, although I always suspected it !

 

[Springs Branch]

I'd love to look at Table 89 to see what was running Tyldesley to Wigan.

Table 89 at the time showed all the trains on the route between Huddersfield - Stalybridge - Man. Vic / Exchange - Chat Moss / Tyldesley / Leigh / Wigan NW / - Earlestown - Liv. Lime St.
It's a testament to the sparse frequencies back then that everything on that whole route could be shown reasonably clearly in one single timetable.

When the network map was issued in 1967, the "service" between Tyldesley & Wigan was very tenuous indeed, comprising:-

• 05:45 Wigan NW - Manchester Exchange. Non-stop, portion off overnight train from Glasgow/Edinburgh to Liverpool L.St. / Manchester Ex. detached at Wigan. Sleepers from Glasgow to Manchester.
• 08:22 Wigan NW - Manchester Exchange. Non-stop DMU. Handy rush-hour express into Manchester from Wigan, arriving 08:56.
• 01:00 Manchester Exchange - Wigan NW. Non-stop, portion of overnight Manchester Ex. / Liverpool L.St. to Glasgow/Edinburgh train combined at Wigan. Sleepers to Glasgow.

From May 1968, the 08:22 to Manchester was withdrawn and the two Sleeper trains were diverted via Chat Moss & Parkside Jn (although diversion from the Tyldesley route wasn't obvious in Table 89 of the public timetable).

So the map was out of date just a few months after it was published. No doubt this was the case all across the country.

Apart from that line and Rose Hill to Macc, all the lines on here in the Manchester area that subsequently closed would be useful to have around today.

In line with @Cowley's earlier comment about looking for a 1967 Southwest Rover, I'd be interested in sharing the Time Machine and buying myself a hypothetical 1967 TfGM (Selnec?) Wayfarer ticket.

Not only could you explore the Leigh loop, Bolton - Rochdale, Hayfield branch and Rose Hill to Macclesfield, the Wayfarer should also be valid from Chinley through Millers Dale to Bakewell & Matlock. A Grand Day Out indeed! (though you might struggle to cover much with 1960s service frequencies)

 

[leytongabriel]

It's an interesting period in the railway's history. At around this time, Barbara Castle herself had voiced an aspiration for a 'stabilised' railway network. Isn't it also the case that a lot of routes on the map at the time recieved operating grants and had terefore been "saved" even if only for the present. My interpretation is that by this time there was perhaps everything to play for, however the railway had too many enemies in the civil service - and perhaps too many of their fellow travellers in senior management

Wasn't it Barbara Castle who came up with the idea of 'Socially Useful' services which were worth keeping and subsidising? So if a line wasn't deemed socially useful it was up for the chop if it wasn't seen as profitable e.g. Barnstaple - Ilfracombe some years later.

 

[yorksrob]

Wasn't it Barbara Castle who came up with the idea of 'Socially Useful' services which were worth keeping and subsidising? So if a line wasn't deemed socially useful it was up for the chop if it wasn't seen as profitable e.g. Barnstaple - Ilfracombe some years later.

It was.

But you have to remember that before the concept of "socially useful", everything that wasn't profitable was up for the chop anyway. So "socially useful" was a major step forward, albeit one that wasn't perfect, and as the decline of the network between then and the early 1980's shows, a concept that could be whittled away on the whim of every following transport minister.

 

[Sprinter107]

I'd love to look at Table 89 to see what was running Tyldesley to Wigan.

Apart from that line and Rose Hill to Macc, all the lines on here in the Manchester area that subsequently closed would be useful to have around today. I suppose the latter if electrified could constitue an alternative route into Manchester avoiding the congested Cheadle Hulme and Stockport areas, but it would be a long and slow way round!

Ive just had a look at table 89 from 1968, and there are no trains from Tyldesley to Wigan. Most trains go to Newton Le Willows and beyond, with a couple going only as far as Leigh. There are a couple of dated trains going from Wigan North Western to Manchester Exchange. It doesnt make it clear if they were routed that way though.

 

[Revaulx]

Ive just had a look at table 89 from 1968, and there are no trains from Tyldesley to Wigan. Most trains go to Newton Le Willows and beyond, with a couple going only as far as Leigh. There are a couple of dated trains going from Wigan North Western to Manchester Exchange. It doesnt make it clear if they were routed that way though.

See @Springs Branch's post above. It looks like the few passenger trains routed that way had been rerouted before the 1968 timetable.

 

[Springs Branch]

Ive just had a look at table 89 from 1968, and there are no trains from Tyldesley to Wigan. Most trains go to Newton Le Willows and beyond, with a couple going only as far as Leigh. There are a couple of dated trains going from Wigan North Western to Manchester Exchange. It doesnt make it clear if they were routed that way though.

It's certainly true that you can't deduce the route of the remaining Wigan NW / Manchester Exchange trains in 1968 from the public timetable, but it's clear enough in the working timetables.
- 1967 to May 1968 - via Tyldesley
- May 1968 onwards - via Parkside & Chat Moss

Other relevant dates were:-
6 Jan 1969: Springs Branch - Tyldesley line closed as a through route (remained open just for colliery traffic at western end).
5 May 1969: Eccles - Tyldesley - Leigh - Kenyon loop closed completely.

 

[Sprinter107]

It's certainly true that you can't deduce the route of the remaining Wigan NW - Manchester Exchange trains in 1968 from the public timetable, but it's clear enough in the working timetables.
- 1967 to May 1968 - via Tyldesley
- May 1968 onwards - via Parkside & Chat Moss

Other relevant dates were:-
6 Jan 1969: Springs Branch - Tyldesley line closed as a through route (remained open just for colliery traffic at western end).
5 May 1969: Eccles - Tyldesley - Leigh - Kenyon loop closed completely.

Yes, i posted before i read your post. Thatll teach me to read the other posts before posting.

 

[Helvellyn]

The Leigh loop was very well patronised to the end, despite awful timetabling.

It went at the same time as Exchange was closed. I wonder if the two were somehow connected, and it was the first appearance of what is generally regarded as a contemporary problem: where to put trains terminating in Manchester from the west.

Would Exchange have really affected things that much given it only had two bay platforms and three through ones?

Possibly more of an issue was the redevelopment of Victoria not including provision for either further platforms or West facing bays. I know it is easy to say things should have been thought of with hindsight but not building the MEN Arena in such a way that space was available for additional platforns is a restriction now.

 

[yorksrob]

Would Exchange have really affected things that much given it only had two bay platforms and three through ones?

Possibly more of an issue was the redevelopment of Victoria not including provision for either further platforms or West facing bays. I know it is easy to say things should have been thought of with hindsight but not building the MEN Arena in such a way that space was available for additional platforns is a restriction now.

I very much doubt it.

The old Victoria's six long through platforms could have probably coped.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Wasn't it Barbara Castle who came up with the idea of 'Socially Useful' services which were worth keeping and subsidising? So if a line wasn't deemed socially useful it was up for the chop if it wasn't seen as profitable e.g. Barnstaple - Ilfracombe some years later.

Barbara Castle was only drawing on the thinking of Dr Beeching (having not really had a transport background herself before being appointed as Transport Minister).
The 1963 'Reshaping' report included the phrase, "The right solution is most likely to be found by 'Total Social Benefit Studies' of the kind which are now being explored by the Ministry of Transport and British Railways jointly. In cases of the type under consideration it may be cheaper to subsidise the railways that to bear the cost burdens which will arise if they are closed.".

 

[Revaulx]

From looking at https://www.registerofclosedrailways.co.uk/search, it actually looks like there weren't a lot of lines closed in the whole of 1967. Appledore-New Romney, Bodmin Rd-Padstow, Three Bridges-Groombridge, Harrogate-Northallerton; not much else. Birkenhead Woodside, Nottingham Victoria and Leeds Central all went; the first two having very few services left and the last having always been an operationally inconvenient dump.

 

[ainsworth74]

Here you go everyone as promised.
This is the 1967 map:

So, without wanting to upstage anyone, I have recently acquired a September 1963 to June 1964 North Eastern Region timetable book (which is probably worthy of it's own thread as it's fascinating with such details as boat trains to Newcastle to connect to Oslo and Bergen or an advert offering BRs services to arrange your group booking including arranging everything from tickets for the train to the theatre). One of the reasons I purchased this very interesting item is that it also comes with a may from early 1963 which, I thought, might be of interest to the good people of this thread so include it below with the whole GB map and the region map.

(Forum won't let attach it as a thumbnail annoyingly but it is attached so click away!)

 

[Cowley]

So, without wanting to upstage anyone, I have recently acquired a September 1963 to June 1964 North Eastern Region timetable book (which is probably worthy of it's own thread as it's fascinating with such details as boat trains to Newcastle to connect to Oslo and Bergen or an advert offering BRs services to arrange your group booking including arranging everything from tickets for the train to the theatre). One of the reasons I purchased this very interesting item is that it also comes with a may from early 1963 which, I thought, might be of interest to the good people of this thread so include it below with the whole GB map and the region map.

(Forum won't let attach it as a thumbnail annoyingly but it is attached so click away!)

Now that is a beautiful thing.

 

[hexagon789]

So, without wanting to upstage anyone, I have recently acquired a September 1963 to June 1964 North Eastern Region timetable book (which is probably worthy of it's own thread as it's fascinating with such details as boat trains to Newcastle to connect to Oslo and Bergen or an advert offering BRs services to arrange your group booking including arranging everything from tickets for the train to the theatre). One of the reasons I purchased this very interesting item is that it also comes with a may from early 1963 which, I thought, might be of interest to the good people of this thread so include it below with the whole GB map and the region map.

(Forum won't let attach it as a thumbnail annoyingly but it is attached so click away!)

Not only an interesting map, but I can rightfully say - "that's got the Strathmore route on it"!

Intriguingly, I notice a line extending past the Lanark branch running out to Muirkirk, I don't remember seeing a table for that line in my 1962 ScR timeable

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have recently acquired a September 1963 to June 1964 North Eastern Region timetable book (which is probably worthy of its own thread as it's fascinating

Not a bad shout that and you may also be able to shed some light on the typical summer Saturday service provision for Filey Holiday Camp station which was recently being discussed elsewhere on the 'Stations with Excursion Platforms' thread.

 

[Calthrop]

From looking at https://www.registerofclosedrailways.co.uk/search, it actually looks like there weren't a lot of lines closed in the whole of 1967. Appledore-New Romney, Bodmin Rd-Padstow, Three Bridges-Groombridge, Harrogate-Northallerton; not much else. Birkenhead Woodside, Nottingham Victoria and Leeds Central all went; the first two having very few services left and the last having always been an operationally inconvenient dump.

Per my information: [Cambridge] -- Shelford -- Haverhill -- Sudbury, and March -- St. Ives; both, I would say, sizeable stretches of line; closed w.e.f. 6/3/1967.

 

[Revaulx]

Per my information: [Cambridge] -- Shelford -- Haverhill -- Sudbury, and March -- St. Ives; both, I would say, sizeable stretches of line; closed w.e.f. 6/3/1967.

Whoops - you are quite right. Also the Sidmouth/Budleigh Salterton lines. I had no idea March-St Ives lasted that late.

Still small change compared to the 64-66 closures.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I'm quite amazed that this topic has gone on for such a long time - four pages and 100 plus comments - but it's been very interesting to see the range of comments that have been made.

I don't really want to keep this copy of the 1977 Map, so if anyone wants it, please PM me (first come, first served!) and we can do a deal.

 

[Calthrop]

Whoops - you are quite right. Also the Sidmouth/Budleigh Salterton lines. I had no idea March-St Ives lasted that late.

I was lucky in this respect, as regards where I lived: in last few years of the life of March -- St. Ives, had occasion to travel quite often between Peterborough and Cambridge. When possible, I did so by the St. Ives route -- found it more interesting than the "beaten-track" equivalent via Ely. I travelled Shelford -- Sudbury on only one occasion: both directions, in a day's "railroving" in 1964.

 

[Bevan Price]

The Leigh loop was very well patronised to the end, despite awful timetabling.

It went at the same time as Exchange was closed. I wonder if the two were somehow connected, and it was the first appearance of what is generally regarded as a contemporary problem: where to put trains terminating in Manchester from the west.

The Leigh loop service had been increased to (mostly) hourly when DMUs were introduced on lines in that area. However, the pre-diesel services had been so poor that usage had declined to low levels, and they (BR - and the Treasury, who exerted strong influence over BR finances, and who were probably largely "pro-road" on transport matters) - failed to allow enough time for passenger traffic levels to improve after dieselisation. Also, due to mining subsidence, semi-permanent speed limits made the services rather slow between Ellenbrook, Tyldesley & Leigh.

Wigan North Western to Manchester Exchange via Tyldesley & Eccles was also badly affected by subsidence, and apart from Tyldesley, the intermediate stations were "less than ideally" situated relative to population centres. For example, Hindley Green had (and still has) no obvious centre of population; much of it is a "long thin" settlement along the A577 road, parallel to the railway, with a station that could only be convenient for a small fraction of the residents.

Howe Bridge served a smallish suburb of Atherton, nearly a mile from the town centre, whilst Platt Bridge had to compete with high frequency bus services to/from Wigan. The local rail services were steadily run down until they became near-useless, and the faster services largely duplicated the faster, more frequent services between Wigan Wallgate & Manchester Victoria.

(Slightly OT - Hindley Green is effectively an eastward extension from Hindley (town); and none of the stations (present or past) claiming to serve Hindley (or Atherton) are / were particularly convenient for the town centres of those places.)

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I'm quite amazed that this topic has gone on for such a long time - four pages and 100 plus comments - but it's been very interesting to see the range of comments that have been made. I don't really want to keep this copy of the 1977 Map, so if anyone wants it, please PM me (first come, first served!) and we can do a deal.

When I say "do a deal", that means that it's free to the first bidder!

 

[daodao]

Whoops - you are quite right. Also the Sidmouth/Budleigh Salterton lines. I had no idea March-St Ives lasted that late. Still small change compared to the 64-66 closures.

The stopping services along the Manchester South District line also ceased in early 1967, a few days after Manchester's last trolleybus ran, with closure of the remaining stations at Chorlton-cum-Hardy and Didsbury (the latter was also served by a few St Pancras expresses). Express trains continued to run until May 1969, when Manchester Central station was closed. The line has since been re-opened as part of M/c Metrolink as far as Parrs Wood.

 

[Springs Branch]

....... none of the stations (present or past) claiming to serve Hindley (or Atherton) are / were particularly convenient for the town centres of those places.)

"inconvenient" is one of the more printable phrases that came to mind last time I caught a train from Hindley. I set off a bit later than intended, and had to jog up a rather long hill from the town centre to get to the station.

In Atherton, it always seemed a bit ironic that when the ex-L&Y station needed to differentiate itself from the ex-LNWR one at Bag Lane (at the 1923 Grouping?), the suffix "Central" was chosen. Atherton Central station is firmly in the north-eastern part of the township and a fair walk from the town centre (which I'd say runs from the "Punch Bowl" to St John the Baptist's church).

 

[Revaulx]

The Leigh loop service had been increased to (mostly) hourly when DMUs were introduced on lines in that area. However, the pre-diesel services had been so poor that usage had declined to low levels, and they (BR - and the Treasury, who exerted strong influence over BR finances, and who were probably largely "pro-road" on transport matters) - failed to allow enough time for passenger traffic levels to improve after dieselisation. Also, due to mining subsidence, semi-permanent speed limits made the services rather slow between Ellenbrook, Tyldesley & Leigh.

Wigan North Western to Manchester Exchange via Tyldesley & Eccles was also badly affected by subsidence, and apart from Tyldesley, the intermediate stations were "less than ideally" situated relative to population centres. For example, Hindley Green had (and still has) no obvious centre of population; much of it is a "long thin" settlement along the A577 road, parallel to the railway, with a station that could only be convenient for a small fraction of the residents.

Howe Bridge served a smallish suburb of Atherton, nearly a mile from the town centre, whilst Platt Bridge had to compete with high frequency bus services to/from Wigan. The local rail services were steadily run down until they became near-useless, and the faster services largely duplicated the faster, more frequent services between Wigan Wallgate & Manchester Victoria.

(Slightly OT - Hindley Green is effectively an eastward extension from Hindley (town); and none of the stations (present or past) claiming to serve Hindley (or Atherton) are / were particularly convenient for the town centres of those places.)

Thanks - that's really interesting. Howe Bridge was called Chowbent until about 1900: a much more characterful name!

A few years ago there was a photo online of an absolutely rammed 2-car DMU about to set off from Newton-le Willows to Manchester via the Loop, which closed not long afterwards. At the adjoining platform was a virtually empty Motorail train complete with uniformed stewards. It said a lot about BR's priorities, which probably seemed right at the time.

 

[YorksLad12]

So, without wanting to upstage anyone, I have recently acquired a September 1963 to June 1964 North Eastern Region timetable book (which is probably worthy of it's own thread as it's fascinating with such details as boat trains to Newcastle to connect to Oslo and Bergen or an advert offering BRs services to arrange your group booking including arranging everything from tickets for the train to the theatre). One of the reasons I purchased this very interesting item is that it also comes with a may from early 1963 which, I thought, might be of interest to the good people of this thread so include it below with the whole GB map and the region map.

(Forum won't let attach it as a thumbnail annoyingly but it is attached so click away!)

I think I'm going to have to buy a new laptop, I've just drooled over the keyboard.

So many useful routes cut off in their prime

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Assuming the OP's map related to May 1977, it probably just about captured the brand new Merseyrail Link & Loop lines in Liverpool, but with no line open south of Liverpool Central to Garston/Hunts Cross.
There would also have been dead-ends at Rock Ferry with interchange between EMUs and DMUs to Chester & Helsby.

The previous issue (1976) would have shown Liverpool Exchange as the Northern Line terminus, probably all Wirral Line trains terminating at James Street, no dead-end EMU/DMU interface at Kirkby and a connection between Lime St and Bootle for the handful of Southport DMUs connecting with Euston trains.

[edit] Near Manchester, mid-Cheshire line trains went to Oxford Rd via Sale. There were no passenger trains on the line to Stockport via Northenden.
And no connection between Hazel Grove and Chinley for Sheffield expresses.

IIRC the reverse side of BR's map had expanded line diagram maps of major metropolitan areas - you wouldn't see the above detail on the national map, of course.

This is an old(ish) map showing the dead ends at Rock Ferry and Helsby.

 

[alistairlees]

This is an old(ish) map showing the dead ends at Rock Ferry and Helsby.
View attachment 78949

Must be before 1984 as Upton-by-Chester was replaced by Bache (a bit further south) then. Late 1970s I think?

 

[Sprinter107]

Must be before 1984 as Upton-by-Chester was replaced by Bache (a bit further south) then. Late 1970s I think?

Probably very early 1980s, as its showing the Garston to Hunts Cross section of line as under construction. Think that opened about 1983ish