British railways seat legroom.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Justin Smith

Member
Joined
14 Nov 2009
Messages
720
Location
Sheffield
Since there are a number of websites giving data on airline seat pitch I think it's about time the seat legroom on British railways rolling stock (coaches, carriages, EMUs and DMUs) was put on the internet. It may even discourage the inexorable and pernicious reduction in legroom on most British rolling stock.....
THE DATA BELOW IS NOT THE SEAT PITCH, it's the distance from the rear of the seat (parallel with the seat cushion) to the point on the rear of the seat in front at the height where one's knees would normally be (see linked graphic at bottom). The info is only for airline type seating, and from the surface of the rear cushion, not pressing it right in !

Note, a few seat spacings are variable (some more than others.....) but the figures still give a meaningful idea of how cramped, or not, you're likely to be. Personally I'm unhappy with less than 28" (of legroom that is), but even that isn't exactly roomy, 29" or more is OK.
I was surprised at how much difference one inch can make.
(Haven't I heard that before somewhere ?)

Class 142 (railbus) Northern Rail (Bench type seats)
Standard = 26 to 27" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

Class 144 (railbus) Northern Rail (High backed Richmond seats)
Standard = 26" (poor) / Priority = 32" / First = N/A

Class 150 Northern Rail and Arriva Wales (refurbished)
Standard = 26 to 27" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

Class 153 Northern Rail (both unrefurbished and refurbished)
Standard = 26 to 27" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

Class 156 Northern Rail
Standard = 26 to 28" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

Class 158 Northern Rail (non refurbished)
Standard = 25 to 26" (very poor) / Priority = 32" / First = N/A

Class 158 East Midland Trains (refurbished)
Standard = 27 to 29" / Priority = 31"+ / First = N/A

Class 170 Trans Pennine
Standard = 27 to 28" / Priority = 31" / First = ?

Class 175 Arriva Trains Wales
Standard = 30 to 31" (good) / Priority = 34" (good) / First = N/A

Class 180 Hull Trains
Standard = 34" (excellent) / Priority = 35" (excellent) / First = 34"+

Class 185 Trans Pennine Express
Standard = 29 to 30" / Priority = 33" / First = 34"

Class 220/221 Voyager Cross Country Trains
Standard = 28" / Priority = 33" / First = 36"

Class 222 Meridian East Midland Trains
Standard = 29+" / Priority = 31+" / First = 36+"

Class 333 Northern Rail
Standard = 26 to 27" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

Class 373 Eurostar
Standard = 29 to 30" / Priority = ? / First = ?

Class 390 Pendolino Virgin Trains
Standard = 29 to 30" / Priority = 31+" / First = 35 to 36"

HST Cross Country Trains
Standard = 26 to 27" * (very poor) / Priority = 31+" / First = ?

HST East Coast Trains
Standard = 27" * (poor) / Priority = ? / First = 36"

HST East Midland Trains
Standard = 29 to 30" / Priority = ? / First = 38+"

IC225 (electric) Mk4 coach East Coast Trains (Mallard refurbished)
Standard = 27" * (poor) / Priority = 32" / First = 37"

* The above figures are so poor (for a long distance Inter City train) I have rechecked them 2 or 3 times and, incredibly, they really are only 27", or less..........
 

Attachments

  • Seating legroom dimension 400W L20 8kB.jpg
    Seating legroom dimension 400W L20 8kB.jpg
    7.4 KB · Views: 64
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

mumrar

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2008
Messages
2,645
Location
Redditch
Since there are a number of websites giving data on airline seat pitch I think it's about time the seat legroom on British railways rolling stock (coaches, carriages, EMUs and DMUs) was put on the internet. It may even discourage the inexorable and pernicious reduction in legroom on most British rolling stock.....
This website may even consider having a section for it (they may even make some money on the click through advertising ! ) but if they're not interested in that I may put the info on my own site when more data is collected.
THE DATA BELOW IS NOT THE SEAT PITCH, it's the distance from the rear of the seat (parallel with the seat cushion) to the point on the rear of the seat in front at the height where one's knees would normally be. The info is only for airline type seating.
It would be hepful for others to add info, either directly or they can PM me or send me an E Mail via the contact us section on my website.

Northern Rail Class 144 (High backed Richmond seats)
Standard = 26" Priority = 32" First = N/A

Northern Rail Class 158 (non refurbished)
Standard = 26" Priority = 32" First = N/A

East Coast Mk4 coach (Mallard refurbished)
Standard = 27" Priority = 32" First = 37"
Being as you only have infor currently for airline style seats, you should compare the units like for like with contempory BR units with densely packed seating. Maybe you could also compare with how many of the old vehicles would be required versus the new stock, ie how many mk2s or mk3s in BR form would be needed for the current mk4 rake capacity.
 

rail-britain

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2007
Messages
4,104
This would be incredibly difficult as there are quite a variety of seating layouts across so many different vehicle types, even though they are supposed to be the same even with a single TOC

It would be possible to list the main types, but with such a variety it would be impractical

Just as an example, the Class 156 within ScotRail has a basic seating plan and layout, but the measurements between seats can vary as their use has varied since introduction
 

MCR247

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2008
Messages
9,090
I'll let someone else explain, too tired to go into it :roll:
 

Pumbaa

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2008
Messages
4,928
Are you going to compare the various window sizes and the relative window area to pillar ratio as well?

:lol:
 

Skimble19

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2009
Messages
1,423
Location
London
Oh my goodness gracious.. he really doesn't give up does he?

Justin, are you REALLY this bored that you must spend your life going around doing things as sad as this? :lol:
 

Justin Smith

Member
Joined
14 Nov 2009
Messages
720
Location
Sheffield
I assume that people think nobody is interested in this data.
My answer is why is there more than one website giving seat pitch/legroom for airlines ?
I`d have thought it could only be a good thing if this data was out there, you don`t have to read it if you don`t want to, so how come you`re getting so worked up about it ? Don`t understand some people.......

Just from checking the data for three trains there are already some surprising figures, like a C158 has only got the same legroom as a C144 ! The former is a longer distance unit, the latter a rail bus meant for short trips.
And a refurbished "Mallard" EC Mk4 only has 1" more legroom than a C144 !
I`d be interested to know what the legroom was on a Mk4 as originally built.

I also think that some TOCs, like Grand Central and Wrexham & Shropshire, should get credit for having more leg room on their trains. I was on a W&S Mk3 only the other week but had not started doing this research, don`t know when I`ll get the chance again !
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,764
Location
Essex
Just from checking the data for three trains there are already some surprising figures, like a C158 has only got the same legroom as a C144 !
Fascinating. Do excuse me, I've got some paint to watch drying.
 

Geezertronic

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2009
Messages
3,769
Location
Birmingham
I think if anyone else had suggested this idea then I think people would be more embracing of the idea but since it's Justin and given his "dog with a bone" attitude on previous threads regarding legroom, window sizes etc... then people just see it as another one of those rant threads where the OP always has to prove he is right...

Presumably once all the data is collected, the ranting will begin about how bad and uncomfortable it is these days to travel by train
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,273
Location
Llanelli
I think you are right Geezertronic. Speaking for myself, I am not at all interested in this data. I have a feeling that the reason that there are no websites currently showing these facts and figures is precisely because there are very few people who are interested.

Unlike airlines, UK railways have long ceased to market their products on the basis of having more space and comfort than a competitor. I remember the old BR ads where a train was compared to a plane, with wider seats and more space, but that must have been twenty years ago!

I think we should leave Justin to it. Let him continue to spend his time trying to 'prove' that there is a huge swathe of the population that agrees with him. In the meantime, I am not going to contribute in any way, shape or form, and this will be my one and only post in this thread! That's a promise!
 
Last edited:

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,554
Aye, leave him be- I actually think it's good that he's making an attempt to back up his ranting with numbers.
 

mumrar

Established Member
Joined
26 Sep 2008
Messages
2,645
Location
Redditch
Well let's just hope he can back it all up, because measurements from just three types of traction is pretty poor. I'm sure spending just an hour or so at somewhere such as Sheffield would yield plenty of data from terminating services.
 

Royston Vasey

Established Member
Joined
14 May 2008
Messages
1,683
Location
Cambridge
Here's something Justin. I honestly find there is too much legroom in Grand Central's HSTs, the seat is so far from that in front that it is an uncomfortable stretch to reach a laptop, food or drink on the fold down tray in front.
 

The Snap

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
3,118
Justin is perfectly within his rights to go around measuring seat offsets. Those who aren't interest, and I suspect that's most people, don't have to look at the data being collected...
Having said that, posting on a forum only entices people to read the thread, and then frustrates them because they wished they hadn't! :lol:

I personally couldn't give a monkey's toss about the specific measurements between seats – as long as I can sit comfortably in a seat, I'm happy. Incidentally, I've been on only 3 units where that is possible; TPE 185, EMT 158 refurb and the Pendolino...:roll:

--------

EDIT:

Here's something Justin. I honestly find there is too much legroom in Grand Central's HSTs, the seat is so far from that in front that it is an uncomfortable stretch to reach a laptop, food or drink on the fold down tray in front.

Controverrrrrrsial... :lol:
 

90019

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2008
Messages
6,680
Location
Edinburgh
I`d have thought it could only be a good thing if this data was out there, you don`t have to read it if you don`t want to, so how come you`re getting so worked up about it ? Don`t understand some people.......

Because it's going to become a moan :roll:
 

talltim

Established Member
Joined
17 Jan 2010
Messages
2,377
I'm conducting research on the people poo-pooing this research. At the moment I have no data but I'm putting forward the hypothesis that they are all short.
 

Justin Smith

Member
Joined
14 Nov 2009
Messages
720
Location
Sheffield
I`m interested in this data for my self but more importantly I think there would be other people interested, why wouldn`t there be ?
If you were someone, particularly someone tall, who was travelling from say Edinburgh to Doncaster and you had a choice between more than one train company it`s information that you may well be interested in.

As I said, when I get a reasonable amount of info I`ll put it on my site, assuming Rail Forums aren`t bothered about doing it.

Question to those who say nobody would be interested in this, if I put this info on my site how many hits* do you think I`d get per day ?
Zero ?
Five ?
Ten ?
A hundred ?

* (After a month or two when the search engines and links had started to work)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm conducting research on the people poo-pooing this research. At the moment I have no data but I'm putting forward the hypothesis that they are all short.

I think you may well be right......
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,764
Location
Essex
I'm conducting research on the people poo-pooing this research. At the moment I have no data but I'm putting forward the hypothesis that they are all short.

Nope, I'm 6ft (last time I measured - which was a while ago).
 

Geezertronic

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2009
Messages
3,769
Location
Birmingham
I'm interested in this data for my self but more importantly I think there would be other people interested, why wouldn't there be ?
If you were someone, particularly someone tall, who was travelling from say Edinburgh to Doncaster and you had a choice between more than one train company it's information that you may well be interested in.

As I said, when I get a reasonable amount of info I'll put it on my site, assuming Rail Forums aren't bothered about doing it.

Question to those who say nobody would be interested in this, if I put this info on my site how many hits* do you think I'd get per day ?
Zero ?
Five ?
Ten ?
A hundred ?

* (After a month or two when the search engines and links had started to work)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I think you may well be right......

So one of your prime motives for doing this is hits for your website?
 

Invincibles

Member
Joined
12 Jul 2009
Messages
511
Location
Suzhou, Jiangsu, China
I am actually quite interested in this, because presumably it correlates with the ability to use a laptop in an airline seat. This is a real issue I noticed on Wendesday on a trip from Manchester to Bristol and back.

You should include seat angle to capture this fully.

As an aside I hate it when the person in front reclines their seat on aeroplanes and crushes the drinks can on my table.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
23,024
Location
Redcar
I'm conducting research on the people poo-pooing this research. At the moment I have no data but I'm putting forward the hypothesis that they are all short.

You would be wrong I'm 6ft 2in and I don't think that would be classified as short.
 

WillPS

Established Member
Joined
18 Nov 2008
Messages
2,377
Location
Sheffield
I'm interested in this data for my self but more importantly I think there would be other people interested, why wouldn't there be ?
If you were someone, particularly someone tall, who was travelling from say Edinburgh to Doncaster and you had a choice between more than one train company it's information that you may well be interested in.

As I said, when I get a reasonable amount of info I'll put it on my site, assuming Rail Forums aren't bothered about doing it.

Question to those who say nobody would be interested in this, if I put this info on my site how many hits* do you think I'd get per day ?
Zero ?
Five ?
Ten ?
A hundred ?

* (After a month or two when the search engines and links had started to work)

Seeing as it's your idea, and you're always right, I'm sure it'd be fine.
I'm putting this in bold for no particular reason.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top