British railways seat legroom.

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Justin Smith, 2 Sep 2010.

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  1. Justin Smith

    Justin Smith Member

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    Since there are a number of websites giving data on airline seat pitch I think it's about time the seat legroom on British railways rolling stock (coaches, carriages, EMUs and DMUs) was put on the internet. It may even discourage the inexorable and pernicious reduction in legroom on most British rolling stock.....
    THE DATA BELOW IS NOT THE SEAT PITCH, it's the distance from the rear of the seat (parallel with the seat cushion) to the point on the rear of the seat in front at the height where one's knees would normally be (see linked graphic at bottom). The info is only for airline type seating, and from the surface of the rear cushion, not pressing it right in !

    Note, a few seat spacings are variable (some more than others.....) but the figures still give a meaningful idea of how cramped, or not, you're likely to be. Personally I'm unhappy with less than 28" (of legroom that is), but even that isn't exactly roomy, 29" or more is OK.
    I was surprised at how much difference one inch can make.
    (Haven't I heard that before somewhere ?)

    Class 142 (railbus) Northern Rail (Bench type seats)
    Standard = 26 to 27" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

    Class 144 (railbus) Northern Rail (High backed Richmond seats)
    Standard = 26" (poor) / Priority = 32" / First = N/A

    Class 150 Northern Rail and Arriva Wales (refurbished)
    Standard = 26 to 27" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

    Class 153 Northern Rail (both unrefurbished and refurbished)
    Standard = 26 to 27" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

    Class 156 Northern Rail
    Standard = 26 to 28" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

    Class 158 Northern Rail (non refurbished)
    Standard = 25 to 26" (very poor) / Priority = 32" / First = N/A

    Class 158 East Midland Trains (refurbished)
    Standard = 27 to 29" / Priority = 31"+ / First = N/A

    Class 170 Trans Pennine
    Standard = 27 to 28" / Priority = 31" / First = ?

    Class 175 Arriva Trains Wales
    Standard = 30 to 31" (good) / Priority = 34" (good) / First = N/A

    Class 180 Hull Trains
    Standard = 34" (excellent) / Priority = 35" (excellent) / First = 34"+

    Class 185 Trans Pennine Express
    Standard = 29 to 30" / Priority = 33" / First = 34"

    Class 220/221 Voyager Cross Country Trains
    Standard = 28" / Priority = 33" / First = 36"

    Class 222 Meridian East Midland Trains
    Standard = 29+" / Priority = 31+" / First = 36+"

    Class 333 Northern Rail
    Standard = 26 to 27" (poor) / Priority = ? / First = N/A

    Class 373 Eurostar
    Standard = 29 to 30" / Priority = ? / First = ?

    Class 390 Pendolino Virgin Trains
    Standard = 29 to 30" / Priority = 31+" / First = 35 to 36"

    HST Cross Country Trains
    Standard = 26 to 27" * (very poor) / Priority = 31+" / First = ?

    HST East Coast Trains
    Standard = 27" * (poor) / Priority = ? / First = 36"

    HST East Midland Trains
    Standard = 29 to 30" / Priority = ? / First = 38+"

    IC225 (electric) Mk4 coach East Coast Trains (Mallard refurbished)
    Standard = 27" * (poor) / Priority = 32" / First = 37"

    * The above figures are so poor (for a long distance Inter City train) I have rechecked them 2 or 3 times and, incredibly, they really are only 27", or less..........
     

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    Last edited: 15 Jul 2012
  2. mumrar

    mumrar Established Member

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    Being as you only have infor currently for airline style seats, you should compare the units like for like with contempory BR units with densely packed seating. Maybe you could also compare with how many of the old vehicles would be required versus the new stock, ie how many mk2s or mk3s in BR form would be needed for the current mk4 rake capacity.
     
  3. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

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    Lord help us :roll:
     
  4. rail-britain

    rail-britain Established Member

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    This would be incredibly difficult as there are quite a variety of seating layouts across so many different vehicle types, even though they are supposed to be the same even with a single TOC

    It would be possible to list the main types, but with such a variety it would be impractical

    Just as an example, the Class 156 within ScotRail has a basic seating plan and layout, but the measurements between seats can vary as their use has varied since introduction
     
  5. WillPS

    WillPS Established Member

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    Oh for God's sake.
     
  6. rail-britain

    rail-britain Established Member

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    Have I missed the religious connection?
     
  7. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

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    I'll let someone else explain, too tired to go into it :roll:
     
  8. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Established Member

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    Are you going to compare the various window sizes and the relative window area to pillar ratio as well?

    :lol:
     
  9. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

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  10. Skimble19

    Skimble19 Established Member

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    Oh my goodness gracious.. he really doesn't give up does he?

    Justin, are you REALLY this bored that you must spend your life going around doing things as sad as this? :lol:
     
  11. Justin Smith

    Justin Smith Member

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    I assume that people think nobody is interested in this data.
    My answer is why is there more than one website giving seat pitch/legroom for airlines ?
    I`d have thought it could only be a good thing if this data was out there, you don`t have to read it if you don`t want to, so how come you`re getting so worked up about it ? Don`t understand some people.......

    Just from checking the data for three trains there are already some surprising figures, like a C158 has only got the same legroom as a C144 ! The former is a longer distance unit, the latter a rail bus meant for short trips.
    And a refurbished "Mallard" EC Mk4 only has 1" more legroom than a C144 !
    I`d be interested to know what the legroom was on a Mk4 as originally built.

    I also think that some TOCs, like Grand Central and Wrexham & Shropshire, should get credit for having more leg room on their trains. I was on a W&S Mk3 only the other week but had not started doing this research, don`t know when I`ll get the chance again !
     
  12. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

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    Fascinating. Do excuse me, I've got some paint to watch drying.
     
  13. Geezertronic

    Geezertronic Established Member

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    I think if anyone else had suggested this idea then I think people would be more embracing of the idea but since it's Justin and given his "dog with a bone" attitude on previous threads regarding legroom, window sizes etc... then people just see it as another one of those rant threads where the OP always has to prove he is right...

    Presumably once all the data is collected, the ranting will begin about how bad and uncomfortable it is these days to travel by train
     
  14. Greenback

    Greenback Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I think you are right Geezertronic. Speaking for myself, I am not at all interested in this data. I have a feeling that the reason that there are no websites currently showing these facts and figures is precisely because there are very few people who are interested.

    Unlike airlines, UK railways have long ceased to market their products on the basis of having more space and comfort than a competitor. I remember the old BR ads where a train was compared to a plane, with wider seats and more space, but that must have been twenty years ago!

    I think we should leave Justin to it. Let him continue to spend his time trying to 'prove' that there is a huge swathe of the population that agrees with him. In the meantime, I am not going to contribute in any way, shape or form, and this will be my one and only post in this thread! That's a promise!
     
    Last edited: 3 Sep 2010
  15. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Aye, leave him be- I actually think it's good that he's making an attempt to back up his ranting with numbers.
     
  16. mumrar

    mumrar Established Member

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    Well let's just hope he can back it all up, because measurements from just three types of traction is pretty poor. I'm sure spending just an hour or so at somewhere such as Sheffield would yield plenty of data from terminating services.
     
  17. Royston Vasey

    Royston Vasey Established Member

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    Here's something Justin. I honestly find there is too much legroom in Grand Central's HSTs, the seat is so far from that in front that it is an uncomfortable stretch to reach a laptop, food or drink on the fold down tray in front.
     
  18. The Snap

    The Snap Established Member

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    Justin is perfectly within his rights to go around measuring seat offsets. Those who aren't interest, and I suspect that's most people, don't have to look at the data being collected...
    Having said that, posting on a forum only entices people to read the thread, and then frustrates them because they wished they hadn't! :lol:

    I personally couldn't give a monkey's toss about the specific measurements between seats – as long as I can sit comfortably in a seat, I'm happy. Incidentally, I've been on only 3 units where that is possible; TPE 185, EMT 158 refurb and the Pendolino...:roll:

    --------

    EDIT:

    Controverrrrrrsial... :lol:
     
  19. 90019

    90019 Established Member

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    Because it's going to become a moan :roll:
     
  20. talltim

    talltim Established Member

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    I'm conducting research on the people poo-pooing this research. At the moment I have no data but I'm putting forward the hypothesis that they are all short.
     
  21. Justin Smith

    Justin Smith Member

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    I`m interested in this data for my self but more importantly I think there would be other people interested, why wouldn`t there be ?
    If you were someone, particularly someone tall, who was travelling from say Edinburgh to Doncaster and you had a choice between more than one train company it`s information that you may well be interested in.

    As I said, when I get a reasonable amount of info I`ll put it on my site, assuming Rail Forums aren`t bothered about doing it.

    Question to those who say nobody would be interested in this, if I put this info on my site how many hits* do you think I`d get per day ?
    Zero ?
    Five ?
    Ten ?
    A hundred ?

    * (After a month or two when the search engines and links had started to work)
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I think you may well be right......
     
  22. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

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    Nope, I'm 6ft (last time I measured - which was a while ago).
     
  23. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

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  24. Geezertronic

    Geezertronic Established Member

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    So one of your prime motives for doing this is hits for your website?
     
  25. Invincibles

    Invincibles Member

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    I am actually quite interested in this, because presumably it correlates with the ability to use a laptop in an airline seat. This is a real issue I noticed on Wendesday on a trip from Manchester to Bristol and back.

    You should include seat angle to capture this fully.

    As an aside I hate it when the person in front reclines their seat on aeroplanes and crushes the drinks can on my table.
     
  26. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    You would be wrong I'm 6ft 2in and I don't think that would be classified as short.
     
  27. 90019

    90019 Established Member

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    I'm 6ft.
     
  28. WillPS

    WillPS Established Member

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    Seeing as it's your idea, and you're always right, I'm sure it'd be fine.
    I'm putting this in bold for no particular reason.
     
  29. asylumxl

    asylumxl Established Member

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    How much legroom does a 390 have?
     
  30. BrummyBoy

    BrummyBoy Member

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    im not reali intrested in justins research but would like to know the outcomes as i am 6ft 4 (so i know weather to get a table seat or not)
     
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