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British railways seat legroom.

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ralphchadkirk

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You don't need to pay a company to SEP your site, you can do it all yourself very easily. For instance, Google likes you if you use Heading 1, heading 2, heading 3 tags for your titles in order of importance (h1 being the most important). Justin isn't even doing this.
The site is putting me off so much ever using that company or following it's advice. It's full of colourful language, bias, and the structure is a mess. Why is there something about incandescent bulbs on a TV Repairs page?!
However I'm not only going to criticise your site - that would be unfair. I like the logo, and the colour scheme you have chosen. The basic layout of your site is also good.
 
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Justin Smith

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Firstly, more publicity for your own website, is that your entire purpose here? To advertise your own website? You seem to be linking to it a lot recently?

Geezer, you're not reading what I'm writing.
For the nth time, I'd rather this website, or another rail based one, put this data on, then I wouldn't bother putting it on mine. I've not really got the time to do it anyway........
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes, I will object if you call people names. If you've got something like that to say, you're better off saying it to their face rather than from behind your keyboard.

I'm more than happy to say anything I write to anyones face, and don't forget I'm not hiding behind an internet name either.
And anyway, what would you call London Midlland's attitude to rail-britain ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thirdly, you do argue for the sake of arguing. Anyone who disagrees with you is usually called something from your dictionary of warped sense of humour (and yes I would say that to your face if I ever had the misfortume to meet you in person).

Why are you so concerned that there will be a list of leg room dimensions on British rolling stock ?
What is it about that that frightens you ?
I don't understand at all........
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.aerialsandtv.com/prices.html#Links

So, seems that legroom is actually measured in web traffic. :D

You're not reading what I'm writing either, see above.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You don't need to pay a company to SEP your site, you can do it all yourself very easily. For instance, Google likes you if you use Heading 1, heading 2, heading 3 tags for your titles in order of importance (h1 being the most important). Justin isn't even doing this.
The site is putting me off so much ever using that company or following it's advice. It's full of colourful language, bias, and the structure is a mess. Why is there something about incandescent bulbs on a TV Repairs page?!
However I'm not only going to criticise your site - that would be unfair. I like the logo, and the colour scheme you have chosen. The basic layout of your site is also good.

The only people who don`t like my website are website designers, and they always pull it to pieces. But even website designers like it if they actually need to find out anything about aerials.......
 
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Max

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I think some people need to lay off a bit frankly.
 

87 027

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To bring this debate back to a more measured level ... I travel on business a fair amount between London and Telford. I now choose Wrexham & Shropshire every time, not only because it avoids a change at B'ham New St or Wolverhampton, and they have a sensible fare policy, but their trains are all table seating with proper space. I hate the VT Pendolino airline seats where the distance to the seat in front is so small that you can't open up a laptop fully (either on the tray or on your knee) and actually see the screen because the angle is wrong. Makes the difference of around 3 hours of productive work on a journey for me so I for one don't dismiss this topic so lightly! I noticed that the VT (Any Permitted) fares became more reasonable once Wrexham & Shropshire became a more serious player on that particular route, but for me the comfort of the journey is the decider these days.
 
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Geezertronic

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I think some people need to lay off a bit frankly.

Works both ways Max, if you are ok with what Justin says you should be ok with what the rest of us say... Personally I object to the way Justin writes some of his comments (and not necessarily the subject) and I will post my thoughts within forum guidelines. If you object, please PM me and I will freely discuss
 

Justin Smith

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To bring this debate back to a more measured level ... I travel on business a fair amount between London and Telford. I now choose Wrexham & Shropshire every time, not only because it avoids a change at B'ham New St or Wolverhampton, and they have a sensible fare policy, but their trains are all table seating with proper space. I hate the VT Pendolino airline seats where the distance to the seat in front is so small that you can't open up a laptop fully (either on the tray or on your knee) and actually see the screen because the angle is wrong. Makes the difference of around 3 hours of productive work on a journey for me so I for one don't dismiss this topic so lightly! I noticed that the VT (Any Permitted) fares became more reasonable once Wrexham & Shropshire became a more serious player on that particular route, but for me the comfort of the journey is the decider these days.

I went on W & S whilst on my Rovers and liked the coaches, obviously, but wasn`t collecting legroom data at that time. I don`t suppose you could measure it could you ? It`d be particulrly useful because I suspect their Mk3s have the same legroom as the unrefurbished XC ones.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Works both ways Max, if you are ok with what Justin says you should be ok with what the rest of us say... Personally I object to the way Justin writes some of his comments (and not necessarily the subject) and I will post my thoughts within forum guidelines. If you object, please PM me and I will freely discuss

I`m more than happy to just talk legroom statistics on here.
You couldn`t get the figure for the Pendolinos could you ?
 

Invincibles

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To bring this debate back to a more measured level ... I travel on business a fair amount between London and Telford. I now choose Wrexham & Shropshire every time, not only because it avoids a change at B'ham New St or Wolverhampton, and they have a sensible fare policy, but their trains are all table seating with proper space. I hate the VT Pendolino airline seats where the distance to the seat in front is so small that you can't open up a laptop fully (either on the tray or on your knee) and actually see the screen because the angle is wrong. Makes the difference of around 3 hours of productive work on a journey for me so I for one don't dismiss this topic so lightly! I noticed that the VT (Any Permitted) fares became more reasonable once Wrexham & Shropshire became a more serious player on that particular route, but for me the comfort of the journey is the decider these days.

Another person who has the laptop issue, it is a problem on some trains isnt it. I can not really work out if it is legroom or the design of the seat that is the issue.

I usually use my knee on Pendolinos
 

sprinterguy

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Another person who has the laptop issue, it is a problem on some trains isnt it. I can not really work out if it is legroom or the design of the seat that is the issue.

I usually use my knee on Pendolinos
I think it's got more to do with the angle of slope of the seat back, coupled with the size of the flip down tables. With the chair design on the Pendolinos, the angle of slope is quite pronounced from chair base to top, which makes it difficult to open up a laptop screen properly. Plus if the back of the seat is more rounded than straight, with a deeper recess for the flip-down table to fit into, then there will be difficulties opening up a laptop. Conversely, a large angle of fixed reclination of the chair (i.e. a slopey one) could mean that legroom is actually quite good at knee height, and only causes issues at laptop height where the seat is a lot "closer", relative to knee height, to the seat behind.

I'm not sure, as I usually travel first class with W&S, and whenever I travel standard I seem to end up on the Cargo-D spare set in as-built 1970s condition, but I think the seating in Wrexham and Shropshire standard class is in the same layout as the first 1980s' mark 3 refurbishment? I know they have 76 seats anyway.

I've got quite a big interest in train interior design, especially the layout of seats and tables and the proportion of tables to airline seats to maximise space, so this information is of some interest. Whilst I would be unlikely to make use of this data when travelling by train, as factors such as journey time, price and reliability take precedence, I think it could be useful to have as a point of reference for current train designs and future refurbishments and new builds. I think it would be more objective though if it also included measurements such as the width/length of the seat cushions, and angle of slope of the seats themselves. Quite a few years ago I did take some seat measurements of most of the train types on my local line, which covered the Northern Spirit refurbs of 142s and 156s and the original style 158s, but the figures will be no doubt buried in a cupboard somewhere now...
 

Geezertronic

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I'm more than happy to just talk legroom statistics on here.

If you only did talk about legroom and not saying people are agrophobic dwarves or other comments to that effect


You couldn't get the figure for the Pendolinos could you ?

Why would I want to do that? It's you that wants to formulate the list not me? For the record, I have no issue with the Pendolino legroom, also used a laptop on table seats (First & Standard) numerous times with no issues. If anyone does want to use a laptop, it would seem logical that a table seat is the seat to take - the airline style seats with the pull down tray are not really designed for laptop use.
 

sprinterguy

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Why would I want to do that? It's you that wants to formulate the list not me? For the record, I have no issue with the Pendolino legroom, also used a laptop on table seats (First & Standard) numerous times with no issues. If anyone does want to use a laptop, it would seem logical that a table seat is the seat to take - the airline style seats with the pull down tray are not really designed for laptop use.
Yep, the flip down tables on airline seats were never intended for laptop use anyway. Makes much more sense to get a table seat if you are going to be working from a laptop. I'm completely outside all this technological shenanigans with laptops and things, I'm just commenting on my observations of others.
And I agree that I also have no issues with Pendolino seating. Or for that matter the seating on pretty much all trains I've travelled on in the UK.
 

jon0844

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I agree that we should perhaps all, myself included, lay off having a go at your website - but from what I've seen, I can't help but feel that all of this is nothing more than a way to get more traffic to your site.

It seems like you're being incredibly (or should that be unbelievably) controversial and starting up a campaign that will ultimately do little more than get people to find your site.

I can't believe you're REALLY that concerned about windows and legroom and may just want to get your 15 minutes of fame (maybe starting with the industry press, followed by mainstream press as they may well take interest in such a story before parliament reconvenes and there's some real news) and sell some more aerials in the process?

If this is NOT the case, might I suggest you set up a totally independent blog instead of tagging things on to a company website that may get more hits, but won't necessarily generate you more business - indeed, it may cost you business.
 

jopsuk

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(As a last from me on the website thing)- perhaps Justin really rather should have three websites? One: fully proffesional for his business, no rants, no slaggin off bodges etc
Two: an aerial "advice" site- with links back to One
Three- other rants and railway stuff, with little/no links to the other sites...
 

Geezertronic

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My only issue has not been related to the subject matter but the comments made that refer to anyone who does not share the same opinion.
 

jon0844

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This is why I think the OP isn't that serious, and just likes to wind people up and be controversial - then link to stories on the web that are in fact just more opinion pieces from the OP on a company website.

If I was still running my own company, I might just be concentrating on selling aerials than - from what it seems - travelling around the UK measuring train seats.
 

Justin Smith

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I'm more than happy to just talk legroom statistics on here.
You couldn't get the figure for the Pendolinos could you ?

Why would I want to do that ?

Because you want to be helpful ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I can't help but feel that all of this is nothing more than a way to get more traffic to your site.

For the nth time, I'd rather this website, or another rail based one, put this data on, then I wouldn't bother putting it on mine. I've not really got the time to do it anyway.........

Why are people not reading what I keep writing ? ! ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
(As a last from me on the website thing)- perhaps Justin really rather should have three websites? One: fully proffesional for his business, no rants, no slaggin off bodges etc
Two: an aerial "advice" site- with links back to One
Three- other rants and railway stuff, with little/no links to the other sites...

Most of the people who comment on the site, which is most of the people who order by phone, like the fact it's got a bit of an "edge", and most of them also think it's quite amusing, obviously some people have a weird sense of humour...... I`m unconcerned anyway, I`m not bothered about being rich, I`m just as bothered about making people laugh, if it puts some people off, so be it.
 
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ainsworth74

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Slightly off topic but seeing as Justin's website has been mentioned just thought I would throw my two-pence in to the ring. I just spent about 30mins or so having a poke around and on the whole I quite like it. Not sure if the humour page is to my taste but the info about TV and aerials is certainly interesting, well written and informative (I now know much more about the Digital Switch over so thanks for that).

As for the seat thing, I would agree with those who have said its going to be hard to get detailed info when there are so many different interior layouts on the same class of train! Still it could be quite interesting to actually have some hard data.
 

Drsatan

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Yep, the flip down tables on airline seats were never intended for laptop use anyway. Makes much more sense to get a table seat if you are going to be working from a laptop. I'm completely outside all this technological shenanigans with laptops and things, I'm just commenting on my observations of others.

Many trains predominantly used by commuters and business travelers (such as the Voyagers and FGW's HSTs) have mostly airline seats fitted (with only a few tables) in their passenger saloons to maximise capacity. I've heard that some of FGW's HSTs have a lower-density seating layout but I haven't found one yet, so I don't know whether it's an urban myth or not. It makes sense to fit high-density seating layouts onto such trains to maximise capacity, even if one's knees might end up touching the seat in front (although I don't have a problem with the seat pitch on FGW's HSTs), because most commuting journeys are under 30 minutes long.

Now, I've observed passengers use laptops on airline seats on those trains, possibly because there aren't enough table seats. Thus, it makes sense to make it easy for passengers to use laptops while sitting in airline seats, since enough people use laptops while traveling by train. To their credit, FGW have facilitated this by installing a pull-out holder that allows a passenger to put a laptop on the fold-down tray, and by installing a plug socket hanging from the two seats in front.

Despite this, it's almost impossible to use a laptop on FGW's 153s due to the design of the Richmond Navigator seats. Firstly, the tray table isn't long enough so while one can put a laptop on the tray table, one can't tilt the screen back far enough. Due to the curvature of the seat back, there's still not enough room to tilt the screen back adequately even if the laptop's on one's back. I've seen quite a few people use laptops on 153s so FGW should be more accommodating. Finally, when designing the Navigator seat, Richmond should have tested it with passengers using laptops and altered the design accordingly. Such a stupid design error wouldn't be tolerated on a car so why should a train be any different?
 

devon_metro

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Richmond seats are old, so laptops weren't that important. I believe the ones in FGW 153s are refurbished ex Scotrail ones!

As for low density sets, they do exist. 4 tables per coach as aside to 2 per hd set.
 

sprinterguy

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Many trains predominantly used by commuters and business travelers (such as the Voyagers and FGW's HSTs) have mostly airline seats fitted (with only a few tables) in their passenger saloons to maximise capacity. I've heard that some of FGW's HSTs have a lower-density seating layout but I haven't found one yet, so I don't know whether it's an urban myth or not. It makes sense to fit high-density seating layouts onto such trains to maximise capacity, even if one's knees might end up touching the seat in front (although I don't have a problem with the seat pitch on FGW's HSTs), because most commuting journeys are under 30 minutes long.
Of FGWs' 54 HST rakes, 18 are low density sets. That said, a "low density" mark 3 TSO still fits in 80 people (except the ones with disabled toilets that seat 68). Removing the majority of table seats seems a bit shortsighted with the growing numbers of commuters who do use laptops on trains. Especially given that FGWs' low density carriages seat just four less seats per carriage than the high density ones, and have a few more tables as well. I suppose given that laptops are getting increasingly more compact and lighter in weight then it is seen as an increasingly smaller issue of having to use laptops in airline seats. Fitting slide-out sections to the fold down tables is quite a good idea.
 

Invincibles

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I have always found those extra little bits work well for using laptops on trains. Last time I went on FGW I was in first class because I had some cheap advance tickets so I am struggling to think when I last caught a train with the extra extension bit. Does anyone know if the EMT 158 refurb has them?
 

MCR247

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Richmond seats are old, so laptops weren't that important. I believe the ones in FGW 153s are refurbished ex Scotrail ones!

As for low density sets, they do exist. 4 tables per coach as aside to 2 per hd set.

ScotRail had 153s? Or the seats were
 

sprinterguy

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The seats apparently. Although I didn't know that any Scotrail stock had been refurbished recently enough to allow Richmond seating to be made spare from them. Former Wales and Borders 153s were fitted with seats from that comapny's 158s when they were refurbed, but I don't know of any other "seating cascades".
 

Skimble19

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I never said I was writing a book, you did !

You, and others, are correct that many travellers don't have an option as to which train comapany to use, but some do. For instance when we went Sheffield to Aberdeen we could have gone GNER or XC.
Finally I think that train companies which provide more leg room, like Grand Central (and Wrexham & Shropshire ?) get some credit, and others, like XC, are exposed for reducing legroom.
GNER? I doubt that somehow..
You keep mentioning these unrefurbished XC HST sets, where are they? All (like the totally un-necessary bold there?) have been done, and were finished quite a while ago IIRC.

Honestly Justin, just give up on this little tirade.. it's not doing you any favours here. People just aren't interested in it, and the way you go about hurling insults at people really doesn't help.
 

Justin Smith

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GNER? I doubt that somehow..
You keep mentioning these unrefurbished XC HST sets, where are they? All (like the totally un-necessary bold there?) have been done, and were finished quite a while ago IIRC.

Honestly Justin, just give up on this little tirade.. it's not doing you any favours here. People just aren't interested in it, and the way you go about hurling insults at people really doesn't help.

It should have said Grand Central, not GNER, a Freudian slip ?
It's not a tirade, I'm interested in it and so are many other people.
Anyone not interested in it doesn't have to read it.
As an example, personally I`m not interested in the numbers of the carriages in any train I`m on, but if others are interested that`s fine by me, I wouldn`t start having a go at them saying nobody is interested.
How can aquisition of data and its publication be a tirade ?
I don't understand why some people are so concerned by it, other than (most) train companies, obviously
 

Geezertronic

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I'd have thought you would have an interest in the number of coaches a train is formed of as that defines how many seats the consist can contain. You've mentioned before about the possibility of adding coaches instead of changing the density of the seating in a coach before? Surely the two are related?

And I'll say it again - I personally get narked by some of your comments directed at people who disagree with you rather than the subject you are talking about. You call it humour, I don't. Your over-use of bold actually amuses me more.
 

Skimble19

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Do please share with us who these people who are interested are...

At the end of the day people aren't gonna think to themselves "Oh I know, I'll research how many inches of spare there'll be for my legs before I get on the train in 10 minutes".. Whereas for a flight, it's slightly more important, hence the existing sites for airlines.
 

Justin Smith

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I'd have thought you would have an interest in the number of coaches a train is formed of as that defines how many seats the consist can contain. You've mentioned before about the possibility of adding coaches instead of changing the density of the seating in a coach before? Surely the two are related?

And I'll say it again - I personally get narked by some of your comments directed at people who disagree with you rather than the subject you are talking about. You call it humour, I don't. Your over-use of bold actually amuses me more.

I `m pleased to amuse anyone.
 
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