Britrail and citizenship

[Tetchytyke]

I am a dual national with the UK and Australia. I have passports for both countries. Would I be able to buy a Britrail pass?

The FAQs talk about residency, but then say residency is proved by a passport. Would they check anything else, or just treat me as Australian?

I've lived here since I was 4 so, needless to say- as those who've met me know- I have a Yorkshire accent. So it's not like I can pretend I'm straight off the plane. I also wouldn't want to lie, but if the passport I present would save me £400 on an ALR with no further issues it would pique my interest.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And on a related note, it is highly likely I will be moving to the Isle of Man in the new year. The Isle of Man is not, and never has been, in the UK. Does anyone know how that works for Britrail?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I think that a lot depends on your appetite for an argument. Referring to https://www.britrail.net/terms-and-conditions * we see

Purchase Restrictions: Pass holders must be non-UK residents. BritRail and its representatives may ask at any time for proof of foreign residency and reserve the right to confiscate the ticket or pass in such circumstances. The BritRail ticket is non-transferable and must only be used by the person or persons specified on the ticket.

So can you get a Britrail on the basis of your Australian passport while you live in Yorkshire? No, because Yorkshire is in the UK and to claim that possession of an Australian passport proved that you didn't live in the UK would be untrue. But when you move to the Isle of Man, I think you would be entitled. On the other hand, I have no difficulty in imagining that there would be railway staff who weren't fully in touch with the constitutional position of the Isle of Man with respect to the UK (ETA) who might take exception to this argument. On the basis of the published conditions, I think you would win the argument - but probably at appeal to the company or the Ombudsman or in court rather than on the day of travel (/ETA).

* I think this is a legitimate website: it's not ATOC/RDG but seems to be authorised by them.

 

[westralian]

What would be classified as sufficient proof? I still have my WA drivers license - does this quantify as proof of overseas residency?

 

[paddington]

The rules say it is for non-UK residents, but the standard of proof doesn't make sense.

A Yorkshireman who moved to Australia but had not become a citizen (yet) would genuinely be eligible, but would only have a British passport. If this person had left the UK after the age of about 20, they would still have a Yorkshire accent for the rest of their life. Some features might mellow after spending a long time in Australia, but as soon as they step foot into the north of England they would likely start sounding like they had never left.

Furthermore an Australian who moved to the UK would only have an Australian passport. They should not be eligible but would likely be accepted as eligible.

I have British and Australian passports too and I have considered this problem before. I have an Australian driver licence which is often accepted as "proof" that I live in Australia, and it is trivial to get one by presenting a UK driving licence, as long as you have an Australian address it can be posted to (they no longer produce them on the spot) and are over 25, or have held it for over 3 years.

As getting such a pass has never been worthwhile for my planned train travel I haven't had to face this dilemma yet

 

[plugwash]

The fundamental problem is residency isn't something for which simple cast-iron proof is available or even possible. So they have to make do with imperfect evidence. If you claim to reside in a foreign country and provide evidence that you have the right to reside there then absent evidence to the contary they are probably going to believe you.

On the other hand there is always the risk that you run into a member of rail staff who recognises you..................

 

[Starmill]

What I wouldn't do, for example, is post on a forum admitting to living in the United Kingdom, and asking if it's likely that I'd be able to 'get away with' the use of a BritRail pass

There isn't anything ambiguous in the requirement to live outside the UK. Nor is it alleged that the Isle of Man is a part of the UK.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Evening all

Jiminy Cricket here.

Shouldn't everyone's first question be not 'can I get away with this' but 'is it right'? If you live in the UK rather than Australia, then regardless of what it says on your passport, you are resident in the UK and you are not entitled to a Britrail pass.

And if doing the right thing isn't good enough for you, try thinking ahead. When ATOC discover that almost all Britrail passes are being bought by Australians who live in the UK, won't they tighten up on the rules and make it much more difficult to ever get a Britrail?

Mind how you go.

 

[Starmill]

Shouldn't everyone's first question be not 'can I get away with this' but 'is it right'?

I personally just approached it as "What is permitted by the contract?". On an assessment of the facts, we have two important questions to answer:
- Does Artic Troll live in the UK?
- Does the contract allow someone who lives in the UK but holding an Australian passport to travel?

My answers to these questions were yes and no respectively. That's open to challenge on a factual basis if anyone would like to, though.

Questions of what is right are going to produce wildly different answers depending on who is asked them. One person might think it is right that they should have free travel by train. Who are you to deny that if that's their sincere view? Poor enforcement practices or badly written contracts are a separate matter to what is actually permitted.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Shouldn't everyone's first question be not 'can I get away with this' but 'is it right'?

Morals don't really come into it, on either side. Is it right an Anytime return to London is £300, or is it that price because they can "get away with it". I prefer to keep it factual.

What I wouldn't do, for example, is post on a forum admitting to living in the United Kingdom, and asking if it's likely that I'd be able to 'get away with' the use of a BritRail pass

I was asking how ATOC define residency, given they only refer to passports. Intetestingly Interrail mention this scenario in their FAQs and say you *can* buy one. Interrail define residency as "the country in which you have citizenship or are a legal resident" and say "If only one passport is European, that is the only one that will be compatible with an Interrail Pass. You can use the non-European Passport to travel with a Eurail pass."

https://www.interrail.eu/en/what-my-country-residence

This is what set me thinking. With a baby, the chance of doing any sort of ALR is pretty much nil for a wee while!

Britrail didn't appear to be so clear. Maybe they will be now!

 

[kieron]

It's also in the FAQ for Britrail:

Am I eligible for a BritRail Pass?

You can buy a BritRail Pass if you are not a UK resident. Anyone who has lived in the United Kingdom for the last six months or more is not entitled to buy a BritRail Pass.

I think this means that you will become eligible for one of these as soon as you move to the Isle of Man. And you can also get a free Britrail pass then for the baby.

If you have an Australian passport, that would probably be the easiest one to show to staff when you're travelling.