Broad Green to James Street (via. Liverpool Lime Street). YP ticket issue.

[chrismid259]

Hi,

I have recently travelled several times from Broad Green to James Street station in the Liverpool City Centre with a discounted train ticket (16-25 railcard).

The train ticket reads:

From: Broad Green
To: Liverpool Stations

this would mean that I can get off the train when it terminates at Lime Street (Northern Rail) and then move on to the Wirral Line (Merseyrail) to get the train to James Street - everytime I put my ticket into the barrier at Lime Street, it sets the alarm off. Is this simply because the staff want to check that I have a railcard to go with the ticket that I have purchased, or something else? Incidently, when I show the staff my ticket that don't ask to see my railcard.

Thanks to anyone who can answer this question for me

 

[yorkie]

Using Avantix Traveller, if I enter a journey from Broad Green (BGE) to James St Liverpl (LVJ) it comes up as To : 0435 LIVERPOOL STNS

So yes LVJ is counted as Liverpool Stations and you can travel there at no extra cost compared to just going to Lime St.

I have no idea why an alarm sounds. I don't ever recall using barriers in Merseyside as I'm only ever there on Saveaway scratch card tickets that I can recall!

 

[First class]

Well Merseyrail Lime Street barriers do not have 'geography' turned on- so it only checks date and ticket type. Railcard is irrelevant.

I would suggest that maybe you're ticket is an off-peak ticket and your trying to use it pre 0930 or some electronic device in your possession is demagnetising the tickets.

Just use the manual gate or the lift- it's so much easier and no ticket barriers.

 

[tony_mac]

Well Merseyrail Lime Street barriers do not have 'geography' turned on- so it only checks date and ticket type.

I actually think that's probably information that shouldn't really be in the public domain!

 

[yorkie]

Are you saying that it's like Leeds was when it was first installed, where any ticket would work the barriers, except it does actually check the date and type?

If so I am sure people would soon recognise that fact. The Leeds barrier accepting anything scenario was well documented and everyone knew about it. Something like that can't really be kept secret.

Also, I am confused how ticket type will matter. Surely it would need to know the full restriction code to be of any use? If a ticket is simply "Off Peak" it may, or may not, be valid in the so-called "peaks" depending on the restriction code!

 

[chrismid259]

I would suggest that maybe you're ticket is an off-peak ticket and your trying to use it pre 0930 or some electronic device in your possession is demagnetising the tickets.

Just use the manual gate or the lift- it's so much easier and no ticket barriers.

I normally travel after 10am. As I believe that I can't get discounted tickets until after 10am with a railcard.

Might it be possible that my mobile phone is demagnetising the tickets?

 

[yorkie]

I normally travel after 10am. As I believe that I can't get discounted tickets until after 10am with a railcard.

This is a myth.

Before 10:00 on 5 days of the week, on 10 months of the year, there is a £12.00 minimum fare for holders of Young Persons railcards on most ticket types.

There is no minimum fare on certain tickets e.g. many Advance tickets, and there is no minimum fare on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays and no minimum fare during July and August.

For Senior Railcards, there is no minimum fare but they cannot be used for certain journeys wholly within the London & The Southeast ("Network") area at times that Off Peak tickets are not valid (this is by no means after 10am, usually it is earlier than that, and it varies by route). I believe it's the same with Family Railcards. As a result, at "peak", time it is cheaper to do Bournemouth to Rugby than Bournemouth to London.

Then there's a load of different rules for all the other railcards.

Simple. Allegedly. :roll:

 

[First class]

It's deliberately set that way because the amount of passengers coming from the Wirral going on to the mainline is huge. The barriers will beep and not open for these passengers as their ticket does not say 'Liverpool Stns'. Therefore, the only sensible way to stop any inconvenience for the passenger is to remove the geographic element. I think most 'dodgers' are well aware of this already. Even people who mistakenly put the wrong ticket in must wonder why they can get through!

You will notice that Merseyrail Lime St barriers never retains tickets because it can never be sure whether the ticket will be further required or not.

I think the ticket barriers are the least of Lime St's problem. The fact there's a lift there that goes straight down to the platform without anyone from Merseyrail even seeing you is concerning. Of course, all of these problems are occasionally combated by RPI presences, both at the barriers and lift. Anyone without a valid ticket- be warned.

The other problem Merseyrail barriers have is it can only read ticket types that Merseyrail issue, which are CDR, SDS, SDR. A CDS fare is available from Broadgreen, which the barriers would not recognise.

As for the railcard, if travelling wholly within the Merseyside area, it is NEVER worthwhile using your railcard before 10am, (except during the Summer holidays, weekends etc), as no fares over £12 exist.

 

[scrapy]

I recently travelled on a Manchester Stns to Liverpool Stns single ticket. I intended to travel to James St. The barriers at Lime St let me through no problem. At the last minute my plans changed and I decided to get off at Liverpool Central. The barriers there swallowed my ticket. I later wanted to continue to James St (The weather was freezing and it was sleeting hard and windy so it was an unpleasant if not short walk). My question is are Merseyrail entitled to take my ticket if it still can be used?

 

[yorkie]

I don't think so, and you're entitled to ask for it back!

 

[John @ home]

are Merseyrail entitled to take my ticket if it still can be used?

If the ticket was route ANY PERMITTED, it still had validity to James Street or Moorfields and you could have asked for it back.

If it was an Advance ticket routed TPE ONLY or EMIDSTRAINS ONLY, it's not valid on Merseyrail.

 

[LondonLarry]

Also, I am confused how ticket type will matter. Surely it would need to know the full restriction code to be of any use? If a ticket is simply "Off Peak" it may, or may not, be valid in the so-called "peaks" depending on the restriction code!

The ticket type used by gate lines is based on the CTOT/Lennon Product code, not SDR or CDR you see in a TIS.

The operator can restrict entry/exit by ticket type, route, time of day, and origin/destination. The ticket's validity code cannot be encoded into the gates.

 

[First class]

The ticket type used by gate lines is based on the CTOT/Lennon Product code, not SDR or CDR you see in a TIS.

The operator can restrict entry/exit by ticket type, route, time of day, and origin/destination. The ticket's validity code cannot be encoded into the gates.

The Merseyrail barriers are only programmed to know restriction Y7 AFAIK. Any other ticket would require a manual inspection.

It is also set to retain tickets to destination '0435 Liverpool Stns'.

Merseyrail have set the barriers to THEIR version of Off-Peak which is the Y7 restriction.

 

[LondonLarry]

The Merseyrail barriers are only programmed to know restriction Y7 AFAIK. Any other ticket would require a manual inspection.

It is also set to retain tickets to destination '0435 Liverpool Stns'.

Merseyrail have set the barriers to THEIR version of Off-Peak which is the Y7 restriction.

If they code it by validity code, there's no flexibility for someone catching a train at, for example, 0931 if the gates will not allow entry to the platforms until 0930... Hence my saying that they cannot program the gates by validity code. (BTW - validity code is Y9)

 

[First class]

If they code it by validity code, there's no flexibility for someone catching a train at, for example, 0931 if the gates will not allow entry to the platforms until 0930... Hence my saying that they cannot program the gates by validity code. (BTW - validity code is Y9)

Ah, but there is with Merseyrail. (The code is Y7 for Merseyrail journeys). Y9 is for Northern's City Line services. Hence me saying Merseyrail's barriers are set at Y7. A Broadgreen-Liverpool ticket is Y9 (as most people will use Northern only), which is why the Merseyrail barriers will not accept.

Merseyrail set the clocks on the barriers/TVMs fast by about 10minutes or so.

If you work for a TOC, speak to a Cubic engineer next time they're around.

 

[LondonLarry]

Ah, but there is with Merseyrail. (The code is Y7 for Merseyrail journeys). Y9 is for Northern's City Line services. Hence me saying Merseyrail's barriers are set at Y7. A Broadgreen-Liverpool ticket is Y9 (as most people will use Northern only), which is why the Merseyrail barriers will not accept.

Merseyrail set the clocks on the barriers/TVMs fast by about 10minutes or so.

If you work for a TOC, speak to a Cubic engineer next time they're around.

The magnetic strip on a ticket doesn't contain a ticket's validity code so the gates cannot check them. If you work for, or know someone that works for Merseyrail, you might want to let them know that Y7 is missing in The Manual. Y9's outward and return valdities are listed as:

CITY LINE SERVICES by any train except those timed to depart Monday-Friday between 0631 and 0929 or between 1601 and 1759.

NORTHERN AND WIRRAL LINE SERVICES by any train except those timed to depart Monday-Friday between 0631 and 0929.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

If - one day - the barrier accepts your ticket, it'll keep it as it says Liverpool Stns.

Best way of making sure you keep it is just to use the manual gate

Ahh barriers, yet something else Merseyrail can't seem to grasp

 

[First class]

The magnetic strip on a ticket doesn't contain a ticket's validity code so the gates cannot check them. If you work for, or know someone that works for Merseyrail, you might want to let them know that Y7 is missing in The Manual. Y9's outward and return valdities are listed as:

CITY LINE SERVICES by any train except those timed to depart Monday-Friday between 0631 and 0929 or between 1601 and 1759.

NORTHERN AND WIRRAL LINE SERVICES by any train except those timed to depart Monday-Friday between 0631 and 0929.

I'll get on to our Retail & Pricing Manager tomorrow morning.

I've observed that the NFM does not show a Y7 restriction for some time, yet TVM/Journey Planner/RJIS will. I'm sure it's just an omission but will get it resolved.

Restriction Y9 only relates to fares sold outside of the Merseyrail TOC operating area, but within the Merseyside PTE area. It is basically saying if using Merseyrail, restriction Y7, any other TOC Y9.

Sadly, I agree that Merseyrail have went with a cheaper options with the barrier software. Break of journey not recognised, does not let you use them for onward travel, does not recognise rovers, or even rail seasons, nor will they let you through on any other ticket type than SDS, CDR, SDR.
Merseyrail are very keen on getting staff to make passengers use the automatic gates, but the amount of times you hear "beep beep beep" is soooo annoying.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

I'll get on to our Retail & Pricing Manager tomorrow morning.

I've observed that the NFM does not show a Y7 restriction for some time, yet TVM/Journey Planner/RJIS will. I'm sure it's just an omission but will get it resolved.

Restriction Y9 only relates to fares sold outside of the Merseyrail TOC operating area, but within the Merseyside PTE area. It is basically saying if using Merseyrail, restriction Y7, any other TOC Y9.

Sadly, I agree that Merseyrail have went with a cheaper options with the barrier software. Break of journey not recognised, does not let you use them for onward travel, does not recognise rovers, or even rail seasons, nor will they let you through on any other ticket type than SDS, CDR, SDR.
Merseyrail are very keen on getting staff to make passengers use the automatic gates, but the amount of times you hear "beep beep beep" is soooo annoying.

The barrier STAFF aren't much better (sorry to tarnish you all with the same brush FirstClass)
I was - very recently - questioned as to why I was travelling via central Liverpool on a LivSPway to Wavertree TechPk ticket.

Sigh...

 

[First class]

The barrier STAFF aren't much better (sorry to tarnish you all with the same brush FirstClass)
I was - very recently - questioned as to why I was travelling via central Liverpool on a LivSPway to Wavertree TechPk ticket.

Sigh...

In fairness, it is nearly always quicker to avoid Liverpool Central and go on the "mainline" from [stn]LPY[/stn]. Even journey planners suggest going that way. Journeys average between 30 and 45 minutes.

If you do go via Merseyrail to Liverpool Central, journey times increase to an average of 58 minutes, a 100% increase in journey time compared to some on the alternative route.

Either route is valid though, for now anyway.

It would have been a RPI who asked you though I imagine.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Nope, a gateline dude after I went through the manual barrier when the automatic one went "beep beep beep"

 

[chrismid259]

Oddly enough - I went through the barrier at Lime Street today. Broad Green > Lime Street > James Street - today the barrier accepted both my OUT and RTN ticket.