BTP Looking for boys who placed concrete on track at Croston (between Preston and Ormskirk)

[Edders23]

Boys wanted after concrete slabs found on railway in Croston

British Transport Police (BTP) are on the look out for three boys after concrete debris was placed on a train line at Croston.

The incident happened at 5.20pm on Wednesday, August 14, on an area of tracks near Ridley Lane in Croston, between Southport and Preston.


It is the sixth time concrete debris has been placed on the tracks in the area.

A spokesperson for BTP said: "Placing items on the tracks is extremely hazardous; those involved are endangering their lives and could possibly cause severe damage to trains."

https://www.lancs.live/news/lancashire-news/boys-wanted-after-concrete-slabs-16840033

Should this be treated as attempted murder?

 

[Red1980]

Yes it should be. It's what would potentially happen if you or I did the same thing on the M6

 

[Robin87]

Truly shocking.
"They believe that the individuals pictured may have have information that can help their investigation." is a bizarre way to state that they are wanted for arrest.

 

[ivanhoe]

No! The clue is in the BTP response: ‘Those involved are endangering their lives and could possibly cause severe damage to trains’

 

[Terry Tait]

They should face the birch

 

[DarloRich]

Answer: no

Please research what attempted murder actually is.

 

[hexagon789]

Potentially, I seem to recall such an incident on the Wemyss Bay branch where local youths placed concrete slabs on the track derailing a 303 unit which killed driver and a passenger.

I believe two culprits were found and tried for culpable homicide and found guilty.

 

[krus_aragon]

There's also this offence:

Doing or omitting anything to endanger passengers by railway.
Whosoever, by any unlawful act, or by any wilful omission or neglect, shall endanger or cause to be endangered the safety of any person conveyed or being in or upon a railway, or shall aid or assist therein, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be imprisoned for any term not exceeding two years

Which is still used to this day.

 

[al78]

Answer: no

Please research what attempted murder actually is.

"In English criminal law, attempted murder is the crime of simultaneously preparing to commit an unlawful killing and having a specific intention to cause the death of a human being under the Queen's Peace. The phrase "more than merely preparatory" is specified by the Criminal Attempts Act 1981 to denote the fact that preparation for a crime by itself does not constitute an "attempted crime"."

To make that charge stick, it would have to be proved they intended to kill people which would be difficult. I don't think an act of extreme reckless alone is sufficient (otherwise we wouldn't need the charge of causing death by dangerous driving).

 

[Camden]

I think there is something to be said for "proof of intent by obvious likely outcome".

If it is obvious that deliberately doing something is likely to cause death, that should be good enough for anyone to prove intent.

It's only the British state that chooses not to see things that way. They keep varying levels of a lid on things, but their actual interest in our well-being?...

 

[DarloRich]

I think there is something to be said for "proof of intent by obvious likely outcome".

If it is obvious that deliberately doing something is likely to cause death, that should be good enough for anyone to prove intent.

It's only the British state that chooses not to see things that way. They keep varying levels of a lid on things, but their actual interest in our well-being?...

But that isnt what the law or precedent says. That argument has been offered and dismissed many times.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It's closer to attempted mansluaghter than attempted murder.

 

[Peter C]

It's when you see these sort of events come up in the news that you really start to lose faith in humanity, isn't it?
I don't know the ins-and-outs of the law when it comes to something like this, but there will be something they can be charged with, even if it is just trespassing.

-Peter

 

[Mojo]

It's closer to attempted mansluaghter than attempted murder.

Attempted manslaughter is not a crime under English law.

To answer the OP, it is not attempted murder as there was probably no attempt to kill.

Even if there was and in the extremely unlikely event this can be proven, there is probably no point in charging for this as there are a couple of offences that exist either under the Malicious Damage Act 1861 or the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 which cover various acts of placing objects on the railway and the maximum sentence for these is life imprisonment, which is the same as the maximum sentence for attempted murder.

Truly shocking.
"They believe that the individuals pictured may have have information that can help their investigation." is a bizarre way to state that they are wanted for arrest.

This is standard phrasing for almost any public appeal for information from the police. Nothing unusual or bizarre about it whatsoever.

 

[al78]

It's closer to attempted mansluaghter than attempted murder.

I thought that was an oxymoron, until I looked it up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter_in_English_law

Looking at the list of feasible defences, I'm not convinced any would apply in this case, unless it can be established the perpetrators were not of sound mind (e.g. mentally ill) therefore not responsible for their actions.

 

[trainophile]

Forgive my possible stupidity, but there isn't a direct line between Southport and Preston? I wish there was!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Forgive my possible stupidity, but there isn't a direct line between Southport and Preston? I wish there was!

Croston is geographically between Southport and Preston; although the sentence could be worded better, I don't think it is meant to imply that it's between them by rail.

 

[Ken H]

Offences against the person act 1861, which i think is still law

 

[PermitToTravel]

Offences against the person act 1861, which i think is still law
View attachment 68024

It is.

 

[paul1609]

Two questions spring to mind:
What is the concrete debris?
Where are they getting it from?

 

[Peter C]

Two questions spring to mind:
What is the concrete debris?
Where are they getting it from?

In all honesty, they have probably stolen it from somewhere else - a builder's yard or similar. "Concrete debris" to me means a large lump of the stuff - but I may be wrong.

-Peter

 

[paul1609]

In all honesty, they have probably stolen it from somewhere else - a builder's yard or similar. "Concrete debris" to me means a large lump of the stuff - but I may be wrong.

-Peter

According to the article it had happened 6 times?

 

[Peter C]

According to the article it had happened 6 times?

I'm going to stand by my point - I still think they stole it from somewhere, or found it lying around - but seen as it has happened six times a builder's yard may not be the origin of said concrete.

-Peter

 

[Ken H]

In BR days they used to have 'tidy days' to remove material from the trackside to stop theft or vandalism. Anything that cannot be removed was secured in some way. Too much crap left at the trackside these days IMHO

 

[HowardGWR]

I thought that was an oxymoron, until I looked it up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter_in_English_law

Looking at the list of feasible defences, I'm not convinced any would apply in this case, unless it can be established the perpetrators were not of sound mind (e.g. mentally ill) therefore not responsible for their actions.

Well read further, possibly.
"In R v Creamer,[21] the court said obiter that attempted manslaughter is not an offence known to law"." from the same article.

It was an oxymoronic concept, it would appear.

 

[Alanko]

Should this be treated as attempted murder?

In Scots law this might be treated as 'Culpable and Reckless Conduct' if the Procurator Fiscal is in a good mood. This is the charge leveled against the guy who threw a traffic cone off a bridge in Edinburgh a few years back. He wasn't trying to hit anybody, but he did and it resulted in life-changing injuries for an Australian national (I think) who was here on holiday. A rotten outcome for stupid, rather than purely malicious, behaviour.

I don't know what the English equivalent is in law. Presumably we're talking about daft boys trying to make a 'big smash' without considering the consequences, rather than malicious boys trying to kill a number of people. The male brain takes a long time to develop, and the 'making responsible decisions, planning strategically and considering outcomes of actions' part of the male brain takes the longest to develop.

What sort of trouble can you get in by pointing lasers at aircraft on approach? Or shining them at helicopter pilots? I would say that the offense is very similar here. By all means throw the book at them, as you don't want the railway seen as a soft target.

 

[LMS 4F]

Over 35 years ago I arrested a youth who put a sleeper on the line hoping he said to derail a train whilst he watched. It was hit in the dark by a 47 pulling coaches and did considerable damage to the loco and line side equipment. The file for prosecution was dealt with by the BTP , I was a local officer, and he was charged with endangering life on the railway and criminal damage.
As I recall he got three years free meals and board and died young a while later of drugs.
I would imagine these youths if caught would be dealt with by way of similar charges, although today 3 years would be excessive given the way things have been in the courts of late.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt it'll be hard to find them, Croston is fairly small, in the middle of nowhere, and nobody is going to do something like that if it's going to result in the cancellation of their train home.

 

[Mathew S]

Over 35 years ago I arrested a youth who put a sleeper on the line hoping he said to derail a train whilst he watched. It was hit in the dark by a 47 pulling coaches and did considerable damage to the loco and line side equipment. The file for prosecution was dealt with by the BTP , I was a local officer, and he was charged with endangering life on the railway and criminal damage.
As I recall he got three years free meals and board and died young a while later of drugs.
I would imagine these youths if caught would be dealt with by way of similar charges, although today 3 years would be excessive given the way things have been in the courts of late.

I hope that a referral order or a youth rehabilitation order, with the aim of diverting these young people away from further criminal behaviour, would be the appropriate response now.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Did they have any CCTV images of this incident?