I suppose it depends on the paper, and the catchment area. Here our local paper is widely read and many lively debates are started in the letters column. Some of the favourites are wind farms, how dismal the area is and why are there so many drunks on the streets. Nothing ever seems to change, these themes have been running for years, so perhaps it is pointless writing to the paper! Still, i might send a letter in about buggies on public transport, just to see if it's published, and if so, what reaction there is! At the very least it would make a change from the usual ramblings in the letters column!
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Buggies on trains
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This thread has got my blood pressure raised a fair bit.
Being a father of 2, with only 2 years between them I have had to get on the train at peak times with a buggy that was fold-able but I did not due to the fact my youngest was asleep in it. Had I woke him I am sure that the 'peak-ers' would have then complained that my child was crying for the whole 50 minute journey. The reason was a hospital visit for my youngest and could not have been avoided.
I could have tried to find the single disabled section to sit at but when the TOC 's are putting pressure on train drivers to maintain their timetables I was not certain that the train driver would have afforded me the luxury. Something that a bus driver would allow.
Plus, I would like to have seen the surveyors attitude had the offender been a group of loud-mouth neds drinking and playing their music to the whole carriage. I would be willing to bet that he would not have the balls to do so.
I would also like to argue the fact that most of the people congregate at the vestibule areas when the train is filling up, are they then a danger to health and safety?
Being a father of 2, with only 2 years between them I have had to get on the train at peak times with a buggy that was fold-able but I did not due to the fact my youngest was asleep in it. Had I woke him I am sure that the 'peak-ers' would have then complained that my child was crying for the whole 50 minute journey. The reason was a hospital visit for my youngest and could not have been avoided.
I could have tried to find the single disabled section to sit at but when the TOC 's are putting pressure on train drivers to maintain their timetables I was not certain that the train driver would have afforded me the luxury. Something that a bus driver would allow.
Plus, I would like to have seen the surveyors attitude had the offender been a group of loud-mouth neds drinking and playing their music to the whole carriage. I would be willing to bet that he would not have the balls to do so.
I would also like to argue the fact that most of the people congregate at the vestibule areas when the train is filling up, are they then a danger to health and safety?
Well its not difficult to find on a bus is it, I dont think they are upstairs at the back
Oh and its a WHEEL-CHAIR space not a buggy space, a comment like that makes you sound as bad as these mothers, which reading your other posts you clearly are not!
An unattended buggy (or suitcase) is an inanimate object. People are not. Quite a daft comparison which weakens your argument.
Well its not difficult to find on a bus is it, I dont think they are upstairs at the back
Oh and its a WHEEL-CHAIR space not a buggy space, a comment like that makes you sound as bad as these mothers, which reading your other posts you clearly are not!
I know where they are :roll:
I meant that with a buggy a bus driver will allow you time to fold the buggy and put it on board. A train driver will not allow you to locate the coach with area that has free space (if it is indeed free) and then fold the buggy down.
I have actually seen people get on a bus with the buggy unfolded with child sat in it!
CarterUSM
Established Member
I think the point was that the girl would have moved the buggy out the way for people but some starched shirt decided that the buggy must be put down. It was not even his job to tell her, it was the conductor/ticket examiners job.
Even then they would have handled it much better I am sure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The guard would.
Its DOO mostly up here.
Lampshade
Established Member
I have actually seen people get on a bus with the buggy unfolded with child sat in it!
I've seen mothers boarding the bus with enormous prams that accommodate two babies, then acting as if they have automatic rights to the disabled space
CarterUSM
Established Member
Not a problem, passengers safety and comfort comes first, and from experience, it's a fair shout to get their attention and assist their timeous boarding anyway, so it really shouldn't cost you much in the way of dwell time.
Answer - To allow a passenger to safely board a train. No guard at my depot has ever been pulled up for delaying a train a few seconds to ensure pax have safely boarded. Yes they have been asked to explain - but the explanation has been accepted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As we are all aware space for large items of luggage, prams, bikes, &c are all at a premium on our trains today. Also with the different types of rolling stock used even within one TOC let alone the network as a whole it is no wonder that passengers can get confused as to the best door to board through when travelling with such items.
The attitude of staff is also important. Some will enforce the rules to the letter, some will adopt a common sense approach, and others just don't care.
The public often don't help themselves by not asking for help and sometimes thinking that the rules do not apply to them and generally not engaging their brains before leaving the house.
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I personally use a lot of discretion when dealing with the travelling public as I genuinely wish to see happy travellers who want to return to railways again and again - however one rule that I am very strict on is "No obstructions to the doorways (offside & nearside), aisles or vestibules". I classify every door on my train as a fire escape and any passenger with an ounce of common sense would do likewise. I had a fire on my train a fortnight ago and was glad that I had taken the time to check that every doorway was free from all obstructions prior to departure as a full evacuation was necessary. Luckily onto a station platform.
How can we resolve this situation to the satisfaction of everyone remembering that we should be encouraging people including mothers & children to travel by train:-
1) Proper train design - is it really surprising that people wish to travel with children, luggage, bikes, &c. Having more fold up seats would be a good start. Proper signage to inform passengers not only where not to store prams, bikes, bulky items, &c but also to inform them where to store such items.
2) A change in staff attitude - keep your train safe but try not to be heavy handed with the passengers. Explain your reasons and offer solutions. Be visible to your passengers esp when they are boarding and alighting.
3) A change in the attitude of the travelling public is also required. Although you may have a right to travel you also have a responsibility to your fellow passengers. Travel in the expectation that your pram/buggy will have to be broken down (you have to do this on most other forms of transport why not a train). Seek out staff and ask "where is the best place for my pram". Generally travel with your eyes (and minds) open.
Happy travelling.
CarterUSM
Established Member
Spot on mate. Though as has been mentioned, some people in this day and age don't like being told, or even asked as politely as possible, what to do sometimes, and indeed, cannot wait to be offended!! I'm with you 100% though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I know it is mate, just a little irony on my part at the expense of driver only operation!!
ChrisCooper
Established Member
You get the same problems on buses. Most buses have a space for a single wheelchair (on some occasions two) or two or three pushchairs depending on the size. The main problem comes when the bays becomes full up, either due to having as many pushchairs as they can take, or their size, or where people will insist on using the bay and then themselves using the tip up seats in the bay (so the bay will only hold a single pushchair). The driver then has to ask further pushchairs to either fold them or wait, as it is not safe (and against PCV regulations) to have anything (other than passengers, for the same reason as on the trains) blocking the aisle. Buses too can go up in flames very quick, usually starting at the back (where the engine is) so leaving the front door as the only exit. Of cource a lot of people arn't happy about this, even though drivers will usually offer to help, even if it's just holding the baby (although these days that has unfortunate implications, you never know who might be an ultra sick pedo who's into babies). In other cases the driver has to ask those who are sitting with their pushchair in the wheelchair bay to move so that another pushchair can go in the bay, which again they often seem unhappy about. Sometimes they will then try and move those who are sitting in the priority seats behind the wheelchair bays, another no unless they have a good reason to need to sit. Of cource, if a wheelchair needs to get on, they have priority over the pushchairs, as it's a wheelchair space. Then again, it doesn't held that many companies advertise their buses as buggy friendly with buggy spaces, probably because the number of wheelchair users is inredibly small.
The size issue effects both pushchairs and wheelchairs. You get some that just won't fit down the aisle between the front wheels, and they have to be refused unless that can be folded. Normal wheelchairs are fine, there are increasing numbers who think that they should be able to bring mobility scooters onto buses. Even the best and most accessible buses just arn't big enough.
The size issue effects both pushchairs and wheelchairs. You get some that just won't fit down the aisle between the front wheels, and they have to be refused unless that can be folded. Normal wheelchairs are fine, there are increasing numbers who think that they should be able to bring mobility scooters onto buses. Even the best and most accessible buses just arn't big enough.
Mobility scooters? What next, 'Mobility' cars being allowed on?
I do wonder if the problem we have today is that everyone thinks that it's okay to do something 'just this once', and if stopped or questioned about it you respond with 'it's just this once - haven't you got anything better to do, jobsworth?'. Then you go and write to the Daily Mail, rant on Twitter or set up Facebook protest group.
Of course, there are rather a lot of people who are just doing it 'this once' or 'only for a few minutes'. Stopping on double yellows, parking in a disabled space.. you can think of a million examples. Are rules and laws based on the length of time that you break them?
The thing is, now we are all so against authority that if someone does break the law, we side with the 'victim'. I guess what people think they want is to live in a lawless society?
I do wonder if the problem we have today is that everyone thinks that it's okay to do something 'just this once', and if stopped or questioned about it you respond with 'it's just this once - haven't you got anything better to do, jobsworth?'. Then you go and write to the Daily Mail, rant on Twitter or set up Facebook protest group.
Of course, there are rather a lot of people who are just doing it 'this once' or 'only for a few minutes'. Stopping on double yellows, parking in a disabled space.. you can think of a million examples. Are rules and laws based on the length of time that you break them?
The thing is, now we are all so against authority that if someone does break the law, we side with the 'victim'. I guess what people think they want is to live in a lawless society?
ChrisCooper
Established Member
It's like these people who moan because they get a parking ticket for being a few minutes over their time. Often they say things like having a 5 min grace period after the parking runs out. Then what, "I was only a few mins past the grace period and I'd already got a ticket".
Where it can be a problem though is where there is an idea of "everyone get's away with it" since those who do get caught feel hard done by. That can be as much down to the staff who let people get away with it "just this once" than the "customers". Going back to pushchairs on buses, if certain drivers regularly let people on with pushchairs that end up blocking the aisle, then people start to think that it's alright, and the drivers who don't are the ones seen as miserable jobsworths. Can be particularly a problem (for the "nice" driver) when the miserable jobsworth happens to be one of the managers covering for a driver on a sick day, who is going to have something to say about getting a load of abuse from passengers for actually enforcing the rules.
The other one that gets me on the same lines is when people get caught doing something wrong, especially older people, and play the "i'm a law abiding citizen", "i've never been in trouble before" etc, when what they mean is they've never been caught before. Speeding is a classic one, the first time anyone gets caught speeding it's as if it's the first time they've ever driven over the limit. Yeh right.
Where it can be a problem though is where there is an idea of "everyone get's away with it" since those who do get caught feel hard done by. That can be as much down to the staff who let people get away with it "just this once" than the "customers". Going back to pushchairs on buses, if certain drivers regularly let people on with pushchairs that end up blocking the aisle, then people start to think that it's alright, and the drivers who don't are the ones seen as miserable jobsworths. Can be particularly a problem (for the "nice" driver) when the miserable jobsworth happens to be one of the managers covering for a driver on a sick day, who is going to have something to say about getting a load of abuse from passengers for actually enforcing the rules.
The other one that gets me on the same lines is when people get caught doing something wrong, especially older people, and play the "i'm a law abiding citizen", "i've never been in trouble before" etc, when what they mean is they've never been caught before. Speeding is a classic one, the first time anyone gets caught speeding it's as if it's the first time they've ever driven over the limit. Yeh right.
Aictos
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Apr 2009
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- 10,403
Agreed, as to the folding buggy I remember growing up if we went anywhere by train with the family and I've grown up with a large family, we always had a similar pushchair to you which was easily folded up when using trains or buses.
My gripe about buggies though is not the carriage of them but rather how most parents seem to prefer to go child first onto the platform rather then adult first onto the platform, with countless times of a child potentially being injured by falling out of the buggy.
There can be quite a gap between the train and platform anyway at most locations so having the intelligence to ensure the buggy is taken off with the adult at the back on the platform is far more safer.
As to 313s, I know first hand how busy they can be indeed even with 6 cars they can resemble sardine cans.
When first myself, then my two younger sisters, were in buggies, we travelled in the guard's compartment whenever possible. This was in the late 80s and early 90s on trains from Blackheath into central London, which were EPBs back then. There were no seats but I spent many happy journeys watching the guard not close his door until the train was halfway out the platform, looking at the poster on first aid for electrocution victims, and wondering what the long wooden poles with metal ends kept against the walls were for. When we couldn't ride with the guard the buggy was just narrow enough to fit through a normal door, and though it got in the way a bit an EPB had plenty more doors so there was never much of an obstruction.
What is the law on mobility scooters? You see them being used as cars on the road, they ar eoften seen on the pavements, and some people seem to think they are allowed to take them on trains and buses! Surely they can't have it all ways?
Spot on, except the last paragraph! There's no need to bring age into it! My father is 71 and has had two speeding tickets in the last few years, due to speed cameras! After the first one, he moaned about inappropriate speed limits, but never once said it was the first time he had done it. In fact, he had been driving at the same speed over that stretch of road for 40 years, and never been caught, as he admitted!
You're right. Now you mention it, I've seen this several times without even thinking about it!
That sounds like an ideal world! In the real world though, it;s unlikely we will get proper space on trains in the foreseeable future, and in the meantime the idea that 'It's my right to bring this buggy onboard unfolded' will continue to be imbedded in people's minds. Only a few days ago I saw a bloke go absolutley ballistic when a bus driver asked him to fold a buggy, as it was an old bus with no buggy spaces. The fact that there was a modern articulated bus two minutes away was of no importance to him, he ranted and raved with foul and abusive language even as the bus was driving off. What sort of future is that child going to have? How does he treat his partner. who looked embarrassed but too scared to say anything to him?
I hope the bus driver had left without the idiot?
Unfortunately all this goes back to people using buses getting away with what they should not ie. even if allowed to use the wheelchair space on a bus it should be one buggy per wheelchair space, not several blocking safe passage for everyone else.
This then spreads to trains, and then you get the "me me" attitude from so many users.
Given a bus driver has to transport someone who refuses to pay (and might have threatened the driver), it shows that we stand no chance until things change.
A driver in such a situation - whether it's a loud mouth chav with no money or a person refusing to fold a buggy - should be able to sit there until the police arrive and deal with the situation, except:
1) The police won't be interested.
2) The other passengers on the bus will not want to be delayed and will tell the driver to get moving - so the driver looks bad and it's a green light to the 'offender'.
Of course, if the driver DID get tough and take positive action - then the situations would stop occuring as there would be nothing to gain by taking the 'what are you going to do about it?' attitude. In fact, there would be everything to lose.
A driver in such a situation - whether it's a loud mouth chav with no money or a person refusing to fold a buggy - should be able to sit there until the police arrive and deal with the situation, except:
1) The police won't be interested.
2) The other passengers on the bus will not want to be delayed and will tell the driver to get moving - so the driver looks bad and it's a green light to the 'offender'.
Of course, if the driver DID get tough and take positive action - then the situations would stop occuring as there would be nothing to gain by taking the 'what are you going to do about it?' attitude. In fact, there would be everything to lose.
Oh yes, the chav made it quite clear he wasn't getting on the f**ing bus anyway! It was then that the driver said there was buggy bus 4 due in 4 minutes, only to be met with a torrent of filth.
222007
Member
Oh how i do love threads like this is certainly stirs emotions on both sides. Well as a parent who used to have to make long journeys with my son and as a member of staff i think i have a reasonable opinion on the matter.
Firstly to those who say buggies/pushchairs should be banned etc i think you need to remove yourself slightly from your self centered life's. However some parents really do not help the situation and i wonder how some parents make it through life.
Today i boarded a train and went to conduct a ticket check i tried to leave the back cab of my unit only to come up against a brick wall. By this i mean a couple had pushed there pushchair right up against the cab door blissfully unaware i was trying to get out - que an announcment requesting the owners of the luggage at the first class end of the train to remove immediately the item (i was unaware of what was blocking the door at that point) I politely informed the passengers that the cab door MUST be kept clear.
On the other side of the coin a few weeks ago i had a parent with a child on her lap (no buggy visable) on my train with the child crying his eyes out (turns out the child and parent were on the way to hospital) and i had some snob say to me cant you make her shut that kid up - i said respectfully the lady is doing all she can to calm the child.
If i'm working and i see a parent with buggy i always advise them to head to the disabled area as there is more space for them. Most parents usually do well those i come across anyway. However you do get those who like to block the aisl and i always try to treat them with respect after all as i said im a parent and i know travelling can be tough but you do have to try and think.
Firstly to those who say buggies/pushchairs should be banned etc i think you need to remove yourself slightly from your self centered life's. However some parents really do not help the situation and i wonder how some parents make it through life.
Today i boarded a train and went to conduct a ticket check i tried to leave the back cab of my unit only to come up against a brick wall. By this i mean a couple had pushed there pushchair right up against the cab door blissfully unaware i was trying to get out - que an announcment requesting the owners of the luggage at the first class end of the train to remove immediately the item (i was unaware of what was blocking the door at that point) I politely informed the passengers that the cab door MUST be kept clear.
On the other side of the coin a few weeks ago i had a parent with a child on her lap (no buggy visable) on my train with the child crying his eyes out (turns out the child and parent were on the way to hospital) and i had some snob say to me cant you make her shut that kid up - i said respectfully the lady is doing all she can to calm the child.
If i'm working and i see a parent with buggy i always advise them to head to the disabled area as there is more space for them. Most parents usually do well those i come across anyway. However you do get those who like to block the aisl and i always try to treat them with respect after all as i said im a parent and i know travelling can be tough but you do have to try and think.
73101
Member
Okay, once upon a time I thought all buggies should be banned - then I had a baby with the missus and woke up in the real world.
This is my take on it ......
1. Large buggies (like large cars) are stupid and only useful for blocking shopping aisles / public transport / anywhere they are put. They are only useful for shopping in out of town locations where space is not at a premium.
2. There really is no excuse for a bloke hogging the place with a pushchair - I carry mine (firstly on a baby carrier - and then as they grow, in my arms / shoulders or whatever. Great workout for the muscles, and the bonding with the child is brilliant
3. Now, here's the rub ......Women have to use a buggy as they cannot physically carry an older baby once the slings are outgrown and the baby cannot walk - sorry some of you kids out there, but they have as much right as you to be on the train. AS LONG AS NUMBER 4 IS FOLLOWED
4. Use a lightweight, small, centre folding pushchair that can be stored on the luggage rack or anywhere else easily - if there is room, use the part designated for cycles/prams - if not, take the sproglett out, fold the pushchair and hold him/her.
So basically all sides of the argument are correct, but both are wrong also
This is my take on it ......
1. Large buggies (like large cars) are stupid and only useful for blocking shopping aisles / public transport / anywhere they are put. They are only useful for shopping in out of town locations where space is not at a premium.
2. There really is no excuse for a bloke hogging the place with a pushchair - I carry mine (firstly on a baby carrier - and then as they grow, in my arms / shoulders or whatever. Great workout for the muscles, and the bonding with the child is brilliant
3. Now, here's the rub ......Women have to use a buggy as they cannot physically carry an older baby once the slings are outgrown and the baby cannot walk - sorry some of you kids out there, but they have as much right as you to be on the train. AS LONG AS NUMBER 4 IS FOLLOWED
4. Use a lightweight, small, centre folding pushchair that can be stored on the luggage rack or anywhere else easily - if there is room, use the part designated for cycles/prams - if not, take the sproglett out, fold the pushchair and hold him/her.
So basically all sides of the argument are correct, but both are wrong also
Therein lies the difficulty! I think it could be that anyone who has called for buggies to be banned (in rush hours or in general!) has encountered some difficutly with parents like this at some point. A bit like the father who thought I should haul my bag down to the other end of a crowded carraige to get off so that he didn't have to move his little angels for me to get to the door, has coloured my views on the subject of selfish parents!
ChrisCooper
Established Member
It really comes down to attitude on both sides, which sadly is pretty pathetic. A good example is how too many people seem to go from being brats themselves, to "ban kids" when they are young, to "I'm a parent, the world owes me and my brats (sorry, little darlings) a living" as soon as they have children, to "ban kids" as soon as their children grow up.
People's intollerance to natural noise is always something that gets me. Babies cry, just like Dogs bark, Cows moo (and smell), Cockrels crow. It can get annoying at times, but it's a fact of life. It's like moaning that the wind is too loud, or the rain. The only one that gets me with babies is when they are crying and the parents don't seem bothered at all. It seems selfish no just to those around, but also to the baby. That and when people moan about babies crying and come out with things like "I was (or my children were) a good quiet baby". I bet. Or even "If I/my children made a noise like that I/they would have got something to cry about". Yes, that really stops the crying, unless you do it really hard but then that's child abuse. Now, when it's older children making a lot of noise, that's another matter.
People's intollerance to natural noise is always something that gets me. Babies cry, just like Dogs bark, Cows moo (and smell), Cockrels crow. It can get annoying at times, but it's a fact of life. It's like moaning that the wind is too loud, or the rain. The only one that gets me with babies is when they are crying and the parents don't seem bothered at all. It seems selfish no just to those around, but also to the baby. That and when people moan about babies crying and come out with things like "I was (or my children were) a good quiet baby". I bet. Or even "If I/my children made a noise like that I/they would have got something to cry about". Yes, that really stops the crying, unless you do it really hard but then that's child abuse. Now, when it's older children making a lot of noise, that's another matter.
fireincairo
Member
- Joined
- 31 Aug 2008
- Messages
- 23
And just how many cows do you see on British trains? (not counting the fat ugly chavs)
Had a run in with a mother with a buggy the size of an X5 this morning, at Old Street.
I was in a real rush to get to work (15 minutes late for a meeting) so I was making fast pace and saw her at the top of the stairs going down from the FCC platforms. I went past and started down, and she called at me. I turned around and she said 'Can you help me?'.. no please, no smile - and a look of real hate as if she was thinking 'how dare that **** leave me here'.
I apologised and said I was in a real hurry, while thinking I'd never be able to carry the thing downstairs anyway (nor would she be able to easily get it up the escalator - so perhaps folding it down might have been a better idea) and another man stepped in and offered to help. She didn't thank him either, but possibly did when they got to the bottom - I was gone by then.
I feel angry, and perhaps a little embarrassed that I didn't help. However, with an attitude like hers, I shouldn't care at all. Nobody asked her to travel to an inaccessible station with a huge off-road tractor sized buggy!
Anyway, I feel a little better for this confession! I would normally help anyone, but you can't just demand everyone around you stops to help!!
I was in a real rush to get to work (15 minutes late for a meeting) so I was making fast pace and saw her at the top of the stairs going down from the FCC platforms. I went past and started down, and she called at me. I turned around and she said 'Can you help me?'.. no please, no smile - and a look of real hate as if she was thinking 'how dare that **** leave me here'.
I apologised and said I was in a real hurry, while thinking I'd never be able to carry the thing downstairs anyway (nor would she be able to easily get it up the escalator - so perhaps folding it down might have been a better idea) and another man stepped in and offered to help. She didn't thank him either, but possibly did when they got to the bottom - I was gone by then.
I feel angry, and perhaps a little embarrassed that I didn't help. However, with an attitude like hers, I shouldn't care at all. Nobody asked her to travel to an inaccessible station with a huge off-road tractor sized buggy!
Anyway, I feel a little better for this confession! I would normally help anyone, but you can't just demand everyone around you stops to help!!
I went on c2c last month and saw plenty.
Very good!
I can also see both sides, How many times have you gone into a high street store and had the back of ankles whacked by a GIANT three wheeler pushchair about the size of a small landrover! My three year wouldnt be seen dead in a pushchair he thinks they are for babies! But that story about the guy who complained to the guard about the distressed child wants to take a long hard look at himself at the end of the day young children are unpredictable and he should look at what he is travelling on i.e. public transport and if he does not travelling with the public perhaps he should make alternative arrangements.
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