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Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus Discussion

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dm1

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I was fortunate to be able to visit Dublin in 2019, and was struck by the state of the bus network there. To me, as a passenger with little knowledge of the network, but with a lot of experience using buses elsewhere, the entire experience was chaotic to say the least.

The very poor information at bus stops, extremely tight stop spacing (meaning very long, slow journeys), and very long dwell times at stops, particularly in the city centre due to single door boarding and people buying tickets did not leave a good impression. Particularly in the city centre, buses creeping up behind others or overtaking one another was a mess. Bus lanes with parked cars on them and basically nonexistent bus priority at junctions did not help.

I even had the joy of experiencing the cliche of waiting for a bus service with nominally 12 minute intervals, for nearly 40 minutes, before four (!) buses turned up at once.

To me, that was a public transport network that was (with the exception of the LUAS and DART) entirely dysfunctional , and one that seemed to be holding the city back economically. Despite this most of the buses I used were far from empty.

I'm therefore very pleased to read about the transformation plans mentioned here. They appear to be very much a step in the right direction and I am hopeful that they will improve the situation considerably.

All that said, it was clear during my visit, that the city was keen to develop its bus network and invest in it. Sadly the same cannot be said for much of the UK, but similar reforms are very much necessary there too.
 
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johncrossley

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I'm soon to be going to Dublin and thinking of getting an Orange day ticket for the Dublin region for €21.70 which I know is valid on Bus Éireann as welll as the routes that were transferred from Bus Éireann to Go-Ahead last year. Can this be used on Dublin Bus as well? If not, is there a ticket that is valid on both Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann?
 

berneyarms

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I'm soon to be going to Dublin and thinking of getting an Orange day ticket for the Dublin region for €21.70 which I know is valid on Bus Éireann as welll as the routes that were transferred from Bus Éireann to Go-Ahead last year. Can this be used on Dublin Bus as well? If not, is there a ticket that is valid on both Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann?
No that ticket is only valid on Bus Éireann and Go-Ahead Ireland (GAI) Public Service Obligation (PSO) regional commuter services - but you do need a LEAP card to load it onto.

It’s valid for unlimited travel on those services for 24 hours from first validation.

You can buy it online and load it onto a LEAP card using the LEAP top-up app once you have the LEAP card.

There’s no cross-ticketing between regional services and Dublin City bus/rail services.

Within Dublin you can avail of fare capping using the epurse on a LEAP card. That applies to city buses, LUAS trams, and suburban rail and DART.

You can top-up a LEAP card online, and then via the top-up app or at any Payzone agent (most corner shops), LUAS or Irish Rail ticket machines.

There are LEAP visitor cards available too for travel within Dublin City but you can’t load the regional commuter tickets onto them, so I’d advise getting a normal LEAP card as the capping will apply.

Go to www.leapcard.ie for more info.
 
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johncrossley

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No that ticket is only valid on BE and GAI PSO regional commuter services - but you do need a LEAP card to load it onto.

It’s valid for unlimited travel on those services for 24 hours from first validation.

You can buy it online and load it onto a LEAP card using the LEAP top-up app once you have the LEAP card.

There’s no cross-ticketing between regional services and Dublin City bus/rail services.

Within Dublin you can avail of fare capping using the epurse on a LEAP card. That applies to city buses, LUAS trams, and suburban rail and DART.

You can top-up a LEAP card online, and then via the top-up app or at any Payzone agent (most corner shops), LUAS or Irish Rail ticket machines.

There are LEAP visitor cards available too for travel within Dublin City but you can’t load the regional commuter tickets onto them, so I’d advise getting a normal LEAP card as the capping will apply.

Go to www.leapcard.ie for more info.

Thanks, I've already got a regular (not visitor) Leap card from a previous visit. I've downloaded the app so it seems easy enough to add the ticket to card. Looks like a cool app, actually. I've already topped up the credit balance by €5 so I've enough for the few Dublin Bus journeys I need. I'll be mostly using Bus Éireann and Go-Ahead Commuter. For 'bashing' the coach network around Dublin €21.70 is pretty good. I'll be going from Dublin to Cavan and back and then to Newbridge and back on Go-Ahead Commuter, and probably other routes if I have time and don't feel tired. Hopefully I'll get one of the new 211 reg double deck coaches up to Cavan.

Bus Éireann seem to love their coaches. Most of the Dublin area coach routes would be almost certainly run by regular buses in the UK, so they are lucky in that respect.
 

berneyarms

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The new LF400s are on the NX, 109 and 109X.

Just remember that the ticket is not valid on BE Expressway but you can use the LEAP epurse on them if you wish.
 

johncrossley

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The new LF400s are on the NX, 109 and 109X.

Just remember that the ticket is not valid on BE Expressway but you can use the LEAP epurse on them if you wish.

Cool, I'll be using the 109X. Maybe one way through Navan so I get to use the NX.

Is the ticket valid on the 100X? It is listed as a PSO route here:


but there is also a timetable for it on the Expressway site:

 

berneyarms

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It’s so nice that state ownership & regulation brings a host of benefits, like integrated ticketing.....
Expressway is a commercial service that BE operate receiving no State subsidy.

Given that there is a private commercial operator on the route too, allowing BE to include such a route in that ticket would amount to illegal State aid under EU competition legislation.
 

Flying Snail

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It is a stupid mess of ticketing and services in what is a very small country that could easily have a fully integrated network.

BE was arbitrarily split in two with some very stupid exclusions now for those unlucky enough to have to pay for their travel in certain places. The supposedly commercial Expressway wasn't commercial when they were expected to run for months with no passengers, revenue or state support in lockdown while the private sector quickly withdrew nearly all other commercial routes. The subsequent losses incurred have now resulted in a number of those routes being withdrawn.

Those poor privates who might face unfair competition are holders of unending FREE licences that block or severely restrict competition on those routes while imposing no service provision, fare, disability access or quality rules.


The leap card ticket johncrossley is asking about is effectively a replacement for the old Medium/Long/Giant hop commuter tickets that had roughly the same zones, those tickets however were valid on all Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus and Irish Rail services within the zones; progress NTA style.
 

GusB

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I'm seeing rather a lot of jargon creeping in. Please remember to define acronyms the first time they're used in a post. Remember that the forum has a wide audience and you shouldn't assume that people will know what you're referring to. Thanks. :)
 

Flying Snail

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Thanks, I've already got a regular (not visitor) Leap card from a previous visit. I've downloaded the app so it seems easy enough to add the ticket to card. Looks like a cool app, actually. I've already topped up the credit balance by €5 so I've enough for the few Dublin Bus journeys I need. I'll be mostly using Bus Éireann and Go-Ahead Commuter. For 'bashing' the coach network around Dublin €21.70 is pretty good. I'll be going from Dublin to Cavan and back and then to Newbridge and back on Go-Ahead Commuter, and probably other routes if I have time and don't feel tired. Hopefully I'll get one of the new 211 reg double deck coaches up to Cavan.

Bus Éireann seem to love their coaches. Most of the Dublin area coach routes would be almost certainly run by regular buses in the UK, so they are lucky in that respect.

The speed limit in Ireland for buses that are designed for standing passengers is 65kph with coaches at 100kph, that isn't the only reason coaches are much more widely used on service buses here but it is a factor.

That zone map doesn't really reflect the variety of services or route variations available in those zones. There are some orbital routes that connect some of the towns as well; 190 Drogheda-Navan-Trim (hourly), 166 Dundalk-Cavan (once a day via some proper backroads)

Dundalk can be reached on the hourly 100 from Drogheda but beware it finishes early as it has always been a combined service with the 100X with that being the only one running in the evenings, arbitrarily splitting up the services like they are two unconnected companies has been a right mess for those who might want to actually use the services.

Dundalk-Drogheda is also served by the 168 which takes a much more rural route.

The routes from Drogheda including the 101 to Dublin and the 105 that connects with the 103 in Ashbourne can get coaches, single or double deck buses. The 103 is the only Bus Eireann route to Dublin that is nearly always bus operated

As well as the 109 Cavan is also served by the 111/a, these appear to be listed as seperate routes to/from Delvin, they certainly used to be through buses but there is a 15/20 min connection now.

There are a handful of services to/from Newbridge on the 120 route running via Clane (and more backroads) The regular 120 to Edenderry connects a few times a day to the 120C service to Enfield where you can catch the 115 route or in the other direction to Tullamore where you would need to go straight back or pay for the train or private operator.

On the 126 the route from Newbridge to Kildare is not direct (private operator Dublin Coach runs that mainly with ex-Stagecoach VanHool deckers) but via the Curragh army camp and some backroads, the handful that are listed for Japanese Gardens take a different longer route and the one that is listed as Suncroft takes a longer route again.

It's a pity the availability on Expressway was removed as the likes of Dublin-Arklow direct and back via Rathdrum and Wicklow is not available without paying more.

Hopefully some of that is of use for your trip.
 

berneyarms

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It is a stupid mess of ticketing and services in what is a very small country that could easily have a fully integrated network.

BE was arbitrarily split in two with some very stupid exclusions now for those unlucky enough to have to pay for their travel in certain places. The supposedly commercial Expressway wasn't commercial when they were expected to run for months with no passengers, revenue or state support in lockdown while the private sector quickly withdrew nearly all other commercial routes. The subsequent losses incurred have now resulted in a number of those routes being withdrawn.

Those poor privates who might face unfair competition are holders of unending FREE licences that block or severely restrict competition on those routes while imposing no service provision, fare, disability access or quality rules.


The leap card ticket johncrossley is asking about is effectively a replacement for the old Medium/Long/Giant hop commuter tickets that had roughly the same zones, those tickets however were valid on all Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus and Irish Rail services within the zones; progress NTA style.
Ah come on - that's a bit of a one sided view of history.

Bus Éireann had zero legal competition for years under Irish public transport legislation, and that could not perpetuate under EU competition law. Whether you like it or not, that's the situation. The split of commercial Expressway and PSO routes was one that they agreed with the National Transport Authority - it was not imposed on them. But it had to happen. Otherwise you'd have had one operator a route receiving State aid, and another not.

The old situation just could not continue legally - there would have been a string of legal cases brought against the Irish government or the National Transport Authority.

Some commercial operators did remain operating alongside Bus Éireann Expressway during the first Covid lockdown - so don't tarnish them all. BÉ also cut services during that time. They did not simply leave everything running. They were free to cut Expressway routes too at that time. Both private operators and Expressway were entitled to avail of State support for commercial routes during the second half of last year.

The private commercial coach operators and BÉ Expressway are subject to the exact same regulation in terms of how close they can operate departures to one another, coach type, and both are entitled to charge whatever fares they like.

The writing has been on the wall for some BÉ Expressway routes since well before Covid hit, as frankly the company was very slow to change in the face of new competition, and has operating costs that are too high. The private competition has resulted in much longer operating hours and has forced BE to up their game. They were very slow to recognise the potential of the motorway network, and that left a barn door wide open for private operators to drive through on certain routes, and BÉ is paying the price for that now.


The speed limit in Ireland for buses that are designed for standing passengers is 65kph with coaches at 100kph, that isn't the only reason coaches are much more widely used on service buses here but it is a factor.

That zone map doesn't really reflect the variety of services or route variations available in those zones. There are some orbital routes that connect some of the towns as well; 190 Drogheda-Navan-Trim (hourly), 166 Dundalk-Cavan (once a day via some proper backroads)

Dundalk can be reached on the hourly 100 from Drogheda but beware it finishes early as it has always been a combined service with the 100X with that being the only one running in the evenings, arbitrarily splitting up the services like they are two unconnected companies has been a right mess for those who might want to actually use the services.

Dundalk-Drogheda is also served by the 168 which takes a much more rural route.

The routes from Drogheda including the 101 to Dublin and the 105 that connects with the 103 in Ashbourne can get coaches, single or double deck buses. The 103 is the only Bus Eireann route to Dublin that is nearly always bus operated

As well as the 109 Cavan is also served by the 111/a, these appear to be listed as seperate routes to/from Delvin, they certainly used to be through buses but there is a 15/20 min connection now.

There are a handful of services to/from Newbridge on the 120 route running via Clane (and more backroads) The regular 120 to Edenderry connects a few times a day to the 120C service to Enfield where you can catch the 115 route or in the other direction to Tullamore where you would need to go straight back or pay for the train or private operator.

On the 126 the route from Newbridge to Kildare is not direct (private operator Dublin Coach runs that mainly with ex-Stagecoach VanHool deckers) but via the Curragh army camp and some backroads, the handful that are listed for Japanese Gardens take a different longer route and the one that is listed as Suncroft takes a longer route again.

It's a pity the availability on Expressway was removed as the likes of Dublin-Arklow direct and back via Rathdrum and Wicklow is not available without paying more.

Hopefully some of that is of use for your trip.
Just to clarify, the 111 and 111A are two separate routes, operated by separate vehicles.

The one thing that is very poor now, is BÉ timetable and ticketing information. It is like pulling hen's teeth trying to find out what routes the LEAP zones apply to, and properly formatted timetable pdfs have vanished from the website for most routes since early last year. In fact the maintenance of the website has been shocking.

My understanding is that LEAP 24 hour Orange Zone tickets can certainly be used on the following services:

Go Ahead Ireland: 120, 120c/d, 126, 130 (timetables are at the bottom of the page here: https://www.goaheadireland.ie/services)

Bus Éireann (ex-Dublin): 101, 101X, 103, 103X, 105X, 109, 109A, 109B, 109X, 111, 111X, 115, 132, 133, 133X

Bus Éireann (regional): 100, 105, 107, 108, 111A, 115C, 133B, 133L, 163. 166, 167, 168, 182A, 187, 190 plus the D1, D2, D4, D5, 173 in Drogheda, 174 in Dundalk, and the N1 & N2 in Navanz

I am not sure if the ticket is valid on the 160, 161, 162, or the 182 beyond Ardee to Monaghan - I am still trying to get a clear answer on the boundaries!

You can get individual route maps for all of the routes here: https://www.transportforireland.ie/getting-around/by-bus/route-maps/

Other handy cross-country routes are operated by Local Link (managed by the NTA). These offer useful connections which are not covered by the regional ticket but are reasonably priced. They go via back roads and smaller towns/villages.

Useful Local Link routes can be found here: https://www.transportforireland.ie/tfi-local-link/ - Scroll down the page to "Regular Rural Bus Service Timetables" and then select the areas as below:

Cavan Monaghan:
Route 176 - Cavan-Monaghan

Carlow Kilkenny Wicklow:
Route 183 - Wicklow-Glendalough
Route 800 - Carlow-Arklow (via Tullow)

Kildare South Dublin
Route 883 - Athy-Newbridge

Louth Meath Fingal
Route 195 - Ashbourne-Balbriggan
 
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johncrossley

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Are Bus Éireann strict regarding boarding restrictions within the area covered by Dublin Bus? If you've got a day ticket you can still go to the first place outside of Dublin you are allowed to get off and come back to get around them.

Regarding express coaches, there are not many European countries left where private express coaches are not allowed for domestic travel. I can only think of Switzerland, Belgium and Luxembourg. Luxembourg has free transport and Belgium has a cheap and comprehensive rail network so private companies wouldn't be interested. Flixbus were allowed to launch a Netherlands domestic network but it has been closed down, probably for similar reasons to Belgium. Switzerland may not need to open up its bus market because it isn't in the EU.

Because Bus Éireann run so many 'local' services using coaches, even though 'local' can mean Dublin to Cavan, the lack of integration looks worse than in, say, Germany, even though coaches in Germany such as Flixbus don't accept anyone else's tickets just like in Ireland.
 
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berneyarms

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Are Bus Éireann strict regarding boarding restrictions within the area covered by Dublin Bus? If you've got a day ticket you can still go to the first place outside of Dublin you are allowed to get off and come back to get around them.

Regarding express coaches, there are not many European countries left where private express coaches are not allowed for domestic travel. I can only think of Switzerland, Belgium and Luxembourg. Luxembourg has free transport and Belgium has a cheap and comprehensive rail network so private companies wouldn't be interested. Flixbus were allowed to launch a Netherlands domestic network but it has been closed down, probably for similar reasons to Belgium. Switzerland may not need to open up its bus market because it isn't in the EU.

Because Bus Éireann run so many 'local' services using coaches, even though 'local' can mean Dublin to Cavan, the lack of integration looks worse than in, say, Germany, even though coaches in Germany such as Flixbus don't accept anyone else's tickets just like in Ireland.
You cannot use BÉ services to travel within the area served by the Dublin city bus service area.

I’d advise you to look at the timetables for the first “normal” stops or jus roost a query here and I’ll try to answer it.
 

johncrossley

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You cannot use BÉ services to travel within the area served by the Dublin city bus service area.

I’d advise you to look at the timetables for the first “normal” stops or jus roost a query here and I’ll try to answer it.

I'm staying near Santry on the 101 route. The timetable says the first set down stop out of Dublin is Ballough. So to avoid paying for a Dublin Bus trip I would have to go to at least Ballough and back. I would try to get off somewhere where there is not too long to wait for the bus going the other way.
 

berneyarms

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I'm staying near Santry on the 101 route. The timetable says the first set down stop out of Dublin is Ballough. So to avoid paying for a Dublin Bus trip I would have to go to at least Ballough and back. I would try to get off somewhere where there is not too long to wait for the bus going the other way.
I wouldn’t advise getting off/on at remote stops like Ballough. Instead I’d aim for towns along the routes where it’s better for waiting, as BÉ services can be notorious for late running.

Personally, if I wanted to sample a good chunk of the network and vehicles in a single day on a weekday, I would suggest doing something like below.

You'd get rural routes like the 111A and 120C, cross-country 190, and commuter 101, 109X, 111, 115, and 120, and it avoids duplication.

Santry (Omni SC)BE 10107:43
Drogheda (Bus Station)08:41
Drogheda (Bus Station)BE 19009:30
Navan (Abbey Road Stop A)10:11
Navan (Abbey Road Stop B)BE 109X10:21
Cavan (Bus Station)11:32
Cavan (Bus Station)BE 111A12:00
Delvin (Gaffney's)13:15
Delvin (Opp Gaffney's)BE 11113:30
Dublin (Busaras)15:04
Dublin (Connolly LUAS)GAI 12016:00
Edenderry (Town Hall)17:20
Edenderry (Town Hall)GAI 120C18:37
Enfield (SuperValu)18:59
Enfield (SuperValu)BE 11519:21
Dublin (Bachelors Walk)20:15

You'd also have time to observe the town and regional services in Drogheda and Cavan doing that, plus grab something to eat in Edenderry. You could head back from Dublin to Santry using Dublin Bus routes 16, 33, 41, 41b, or 41c.

Also I cannot emphasise this enough - check here for service updates - https://buseireann.ie/inner.php?id=364 - that's where BÉ post cancellations. GoAhead post service updates on twitter at https://twitter.com/goaheadireland
 
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johncrossley

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I wouldn’t advise getting off/on at remote stops like Ballough. Instead I’d aim for towns along the routes where it’s better for waiting, as BÉ services can be notorious for late running.

Thanks for your detailed advice. I'll have the real time app so I should be aware of late running, or can I not trust it?
 

berneyarms

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Thanks for your detailed advice. I'll have the real time app so I should be aware of late running, or can I not trust it?
You're welcome!

The realtime info can blow hot & cold - sometimes the GPS isn't working on the vehicle and it will display the scheduled times instead. It can be pot luck!

That's why I'd leave a bit of time for connections. That being said the 190/109X should be ok.
 

johncrossley

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Expressway contracts further. X8 replaced by 245X. Would this have gone to tender?

www.transportforireland.ie/news/cork-to-dublin-bus-connectivity-to-be-maintained-by-introducing-a-new-public-service-obligation-pso-route-245x
Route 245X to serve Fermoy, Mitchelstown, Cahir and Cashel

Leap Card discounts will be available for the first time, offering 30% discount versus cash single fares

The National Transport Authority (NTA) is pleased to confirm that from Sunday 5 September 2021, a new Public Service Obligation (PSO) route will operate between Cork and Dublin, serving Fermoy, Mitchelstown, Cahir and Cashel. This route, 245X, will offer four services per day between Cork and Dublin, and will initially be operated by Bus Éireann, supported by funding from the NTA.

The Transport for Ireland route is being introduced following the cessation of Expressway route X8, with its final service operating on Saturday, 4 September 2021. After the announcement of Expressway’s intention to exit Route X8, the NTA carried out a detailed review and assessment of transport connectivity. This identified and supported the need for maintaining a link between Dublin and Cork, particularly for communities in Tipperary.

NTA CEO Anne Graham said: “We have undertaken a thorough and careful assessment of the entire transport system along the Cork to Dublin route. It became clear there was a need to preserve connectivity for the towns along the route and we are pleased to ensure a seamless transition for the communities affected. We believe this brings certainty and avoids any disruption to public transport provision in the area, which is particularly welcome ahead of the resumption of third level education in the autumn.”

The 245X will maintain the same timetable, with the same stops as the previous commercial route, terminating in Dublin city. Four services a day will operate in both directions. The principal changes will be:

  • The livery of the coaches serving the route will change to TFI/Bus Éireann.
  • Some fares between Dublin and Cork will increase by €1, however for the first time, a 30% Leap Card discount will be applied, meaning that, using Leap Card, a single ticket between Cork and Dublin will be €12.25 instead of the previous fare of €16.50. Leap Cards can be bought online, delivered by post to any household in the country and easily topped up on Android or iPhone devices 24 hours a day using the Leap Top Up app
  • Passengers will be able to buy a ticket online at buseireann.ie but reserving a seat will not be possible.
 

berneyarms

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johncrossley

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I'm impressed that they have the same information monitors inside the bus, like what they have in Switzerland:


British bus companies are too tight to pay for such things!
 

berneyarms

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I'm impressed that they have the same information monitors inside the bus, like what they have in Switzerland:


British bus companies are too tight to pay for such things!
How did your trip go after all?
 

SouthEastBuses

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I'm impressed that they have the same information monitors inside the bus, like what they have in Switzerland:


British bus companies are too tight to pay for such things!

Some British bus companies do have such monitors though, for example Metrobus in Crawley which has them on their Volvo Wright Eclipse and Wright Streetlites.
 

cnjb8

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Some British bus companies do have such monitors though, for example Metrobus in Crawley which has them on their Volvo Wright Eclipse and Wright Streetlites.
It is quite common for new buses to have them now, particularly on ADLs MMC buses
 

Ewan M

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Hello all. Does anyone have the fleet numbers/registrations of the new 21-plate Bus Eireann VDL Futura FDD2s? I snapped a few of them in Dublin last month in the TFI livery but unfortunately I’m having issues trying to identify their fleet number
 

SouthEastBuses

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You cannot use BÉ services to travel within the area served by the Dublin city bus service area.

I’d advise you to look at the timetables for the first “normal” stops or jus roost a query here and I’ll try to answer it.

You can on the 126 though apparently, at least according to the Irish transport forums (the only bus I ever caught in Ireland was a Dublin Bus B9TL Gemini on the Airport route from Dublin Airport to the City Centre, so I don't know much about Irish buses, sorry)

EDIT: just realised that the 126 is actually Go Ahead Ireland, which may have different rules to Bus Éireann.
 
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berneyarms

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You can on the 126 though apparently, at least according to the Irish transport forums (the only bus I ever caught in Ireland was a Dublin Bus B9TL Gemini on the Airport route from Dublin Airport to the City Centre, so I don't know much about Irish buses, sorry)

EDIT: just realised that the 126 is actually Go Ahead Ireland, which may have different rules to Bus Éireann.
No you can’t.

The first stop at which passengers can travel to outbound on the 126 is just beyond Rathcoole, which is outside the Dublin City Bus service area.

Hello all. Does anyone have the fleet numbers/registrations of the new 21-plate Bus Eireann VDL Futura FDD2s? I snapped a few of them in Dublin last month in the TFI livery but unfortunately I’m having issues trying to identify their fleet number
LF401 to LF430 was the first batch.
LF431 to LF453 is the second batch currently being delivered.
 
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SouthEastBuses

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No you can’t.

The first stop at which passengers can travel to outbound on the 126 outbound is just beyond Rathcoole.


LF401 to LF430 was the first batch.
LF431 to LF453 is the second batch currently being delivered.

One user on that forum said that you can choose between 69 & 126 when travelling between Rathcoole and Dublin City Centre.
 
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