Bus Passenger Rights - Stranded If Last Bus Cancelled.

[Busaholic]

A nagging thought in all this - just because somebody says they're an off-duty police constable (and presumably is not wearing the traditional garb) did they produce evidence of this?

 

[Antman]

A few years ago I was stranded after the last Brighton & Hove bus from Brighton to Tunbridge Wells didn't run, I got another bus to Uckfield, train to Eridge and a taxi from there. I was fully reimbursed with a very apologetic letter.

There really does need to be an emergency contact number for all bus operators that is staffed throughout operating hours.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I had a similar situation where it was technically the last bus. On I think the Saturday 1st November 2014 (Saturday around then if not on the 1st) I was on a late S1 (22:05ish from Witney around 15 minutes late due to a lot of passengers onboard I presume). A Gold S1-branded Scania this was.

Just after coming through the Railway Station bridge around 22:50, I saw the 22:50 service 31 enter the station. I get off at Frideswide Square, put my hand out in good time and clearly, and it went past the S1 and stopped at the traffic lights. I tried to explain via indicating to the driver I put my hand out and he didn't even open the doors when I'd have been 2 seconds getting on with my concessionary pass (I'm 26 now). 08-reg Scania E400 ran the 31 which was empty.

I emailed Stagecoach Oxford and they spoke to the driver concerned I think. Thankfully the 23:10ish Oxford Bus Company service X3 I didn't have long to wait for. The 31 was handy as it stopped down my road and the X3 stopped a minute longer away that's all.

Surprisingly the 2 front seats on the S1 and X3 (also a Scania E400) were available!

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I had a similar situation where it was technically the last bus. On I think the Saturday 1st November 2014 (Saturday around then if not on the 1st) I was on a late S1 (22:05ish from Witney around 15 minutes late due to a lot of passengers onboard I presume). A Gold S1-branded Scania this was.

Just after coming through the Railway Station bridge around 22:50, I saw the 22:50 service 31 enter the station. I get off at Frideswide Square, put my hand out in good time and clearly, and it went past the S1 and stopped at the traffic lights. I tried to explain via indicating to the driver I put my hand out and he didn't even open the doors when I'd have been 2 seconds getting on with my concessionary pass (I'm 26 now). 08-reg Scania E400 ran the 31 which was empty.

I emailed Stagecoach Oxford and they spoke to the driver concerned I think. Thankfully the 23:10ish Oxford Bus Company service X3 I didn't have long to wait for. The 31 was handy as it stopped down my road and the X3 stopped a minute longer away that's all.

Surprisingly the 2 front seats on the S1 and X3 (also a Scania E400) were available!

Sorry, should've said in Oxfordshire this all was.

 

[extendedpaul]

A nagging thought in all this - just because somebody says they're an off-duty police constable (and presumably is not wearing the traditional garb) did they produce evidence of this?

He certainly showed what looked like a warrant card to the bus driver he spoke to without being asked and was chatting to us about being back on duty the following morning at 6am. I had no reason to think he wasn't what he said.

 

[Busaholic]

He certainly showed what looked like a warrant card to the bus driver he spoke to without being asked and was chatting to us about being back on duty the following morning at 6am. I had no reason to think he wasn't what he said.

Fair enough!

 

[philthetube]

Very few rights, the T&Cs for bus companies offer all sorts of getout clauses, though the Consumer Rights Act will help.

In West Yorkshire three of the four big companies will refund a taxi if the last bus is more than 20 minutes late. https://www.wymetro.com/contact-us/...i-refunds-for-bus-journeys-in-west-yorkshire/

It wouldn't matter what the terms and conditions said, if they were found in law to be unreasonable then that is that,

I wonder if there has ever been a court case regarding contract law when someone has a return ticket and the return journey fails to show.

 

[carlberry]

It wouldn't matter what the terms and conditions said, if they were found in law to be unreasonable then that is that,

I wonder if there has ever been a court case regarding contract law when someone has a return ticket and the return journey fails to show.

The problem is the likely outcome would be a refund of what was paid plus some small compensation (which is likely to have already been offered by that point), it would be difficult to prove anything like a large 'consequential loss' so, I suspect, nobody would be willing to take the risk of taking it to court.

 

[londonbridge]

I had a similar situation where it was technically the last bus. On I think the Saturday 1st November 2014 (Saturday around then if not on the 1st) I was on a late S1 (22:05ish from Witney around 15 minutes late due to a lot of passengers onboard I presume). A Gold S1-branded Scania this was.

Just after coming through the Railway Station bridge around 22:50, I saw the 22:50 service 31 enter the station. I get off at Frideswide Square, put my hand out in good time and clearly, and it went past the S1 and stopped at the traffic lights. I tried to explain via indicating to the driver I put my hand out and he didn't even open the doors when I'd have been 2 seconds getting on with my concessionary pass (I'm 26 now). 08-reg Scania E400 ran the 31 which was empty.

I emailed Stagecoach Oxford and they spoke to the driver concerned I think. Thankfully the 23:10ish Oxford Bus Company service X3 I didn't have long to wait for. The 31 was handy as it stopped down my road and the X3 stopped a minute longer away that's all.

Surprisingly the 2 front seats on the S1 and X3 (also a Scania E400) were available!

I always thought bus drivers are instructed not to open the doors other than at bus stops.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I always thought bus drivers are instructed not to open the doors other than at bus stops.

Normally yes but common sense, given that time of night and that I put my hand out in good time, is that a 2-second job wouldn't have hurt. Maybe I'm wrong, but I bet if a nice driver, who's seen me on their service before, was running that service he'd have likely let me on.

However, the driver (not that long after I complained to Stagecoach) acted like nothing had happened which was fine - rather that than argue.

I do see your point, however if 2 vulnerable people were in the same position as me then the driver should let them on. If I was driving that service and someone put their hand out but I accidentally didn't see them but was fortunate to stop at a red light, I'd have opened the door and saved them a wait in a city past 11pm on a Saturday night.

Changing the subject slightly, Frideswide Square has not that long been remodelled with 2 larger lay-by bus stops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always thought bus drivers are instructed not to open the doors other than at bus stops.

They are, but if I'm reading it right this was after he sailed past the OP at a stop with his hand out.

To be honest, it's the problem with the "hand out" thing. The default at any stop where it is impossible to see conclusively if someone wants the bus (e.g. another bus is there and perhaps a wheelchair user is hiding behind it) should be to stop and open the doors for at least ten seconds. Certainly on a last bus or infrequent service.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

They are, but if I'm reading it right this was after he sailed past the OP at a stop with his hand out.

To be honest, it's the problem with the "hand out" thing. The default at any stop where it is impossible to see conclusively if someone wants the bus (e.g. another bus is there and perhaps a wheelchair user is hiding behind it) should be to stop and open the doors for at least ten seconds. Certainly on a last bus or infrequent service.

They are, but if I'm reading it right this was after he sailed past the OP at a stop with his hand out.

To be honest, it's the problem with the "hand out" thing. The default at any stop where it is impossible to see conclusively if someone wants the bus (e.g. another bus is there and perhaps a wheelchair user is hiding behind it) should be to stop and open the doors for at least ten seconds. Certainly on a last bus or infrequent service.

Forgive me for asking, what does 'OP' mean?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Forgive me for asking, what does 'OP' mean?

Sorry, it's "Original Poster", the person the comments in your post refer to. Quite common in here and in other forums.

 

[AY1975]

On a couple of occasions back in 2000 the now-withdrawn late evening buses on route 140 (Matlock-Alfreton) failed to turn up so I had to pay for a taxi from Matlock to South Wingfield. I raised the matter with Derbyshire County Council, and luckily they sent me a complimentary Derbyshire Wayfarer ticket.

I believe that the last bus on a route, especially on lightly used rural routes, often tends to run early so the driver can clock off early (even though they risk disciplinary action if caught doing this). More recently I've had problems with the last bus on the 140 since it's been run by Littles Travel (see my now-closed thread on this at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/littles-travel-poor-reliability-on-evening-buses.144836).

If it's a service that's run under contract to the local authority, and you don't get a satisfactory response from the operator, then I'd say it'd be worth escalating the matter to the local authority public transport department in the first instance, then if that doesn't work either, reporting it to the Traffic Commissioners.

 

[pjnathanail]

Interestingly Centrebus, who are not known as being an overly customer-friendly operator, have this information on their website. The relevant section would be "No alternate service that day" so as long as the taxi wasn't four times the single ticket you'd be fine, but given the cost of rural taxis I think you would still be out of pocket even with the very high bus fares that are charged!!

https://www.centrebus.info/index.php/contact-us/delay-compensation

What might you get back?
For completed journeys - the value of the ticket you have purchased from us

For journeys not completed - the value of a standard single ticket for the intended journey, or the value of your ticket if you have already purchased one.

Season tickets - the proportional daily cost of your ticket

No alternate service that day - the value of a journey on an alternate mode, up to 4 times the standard single fare

 

[LowLevel]

If an Authorised Person by the meaning of the Byelaws gives permission to travel and this can be evidenced, if they should not have done that becomes a disciplinary matter between them, their employer and (if a third party) the TOC. It does not reflect in any way on the passenger, a fare cannot be retrospectively imposed, a PF appeal would succeed and a prosecution would fail.

This is similar to the "argument between RPI and guard" thread - in that case the RPI cannot retract permission given by an Authorised Person (the guard) - once given, such permission stands - all they can do is report it as a disciplinary matter.

Which is all well and good with a uniformed railway official or transport police officer.

It is much less likely to hold any water at all when the person in question is an off duty home office police constable not engaged in any duty upon the railway asserting that they and their companions are entitled to travel without a ticket owing to the cancellation of a bus service which is precisely nothing to do with the railway. Whether his companions believe him to hold the authority is irrelevant.

Incidentally the last constable I know of who attempted to assert their authority with a railway official (in this case a train guard) was arrested on the spot by the transport police.

In any case you will never find any police constable transport police or civil asserting that someone has the right to travel on board a train without a ticket or in any other circumstances prescribed by the byelaws as it is not within the realms of their duties. They must always defer to the senior railway official in charge which in the case of conveyance by train is the guard or driver on a Driver Only service (I can assure you that they don't always like it but will always concede it).

 

[Busaholic]

Which is all well and good with a uniformed railway official or transport police officer.

It is much less likely to hold any water at all when the person in question is an off duty home office police constable not engaged in any duty upon the railway asserting that they and their companions are entitled to travel without a ticket owing to the cancellation of a bus service which is precisely nothing to do with the railway. Whether his companions believe him to hold the authority is irrelevant.

Incidentally the last constable I know of who attempted to assert their authority with a railway official (in this case a train guard) was arrested on the spot by the transport police.

In any case you will never find any police constable transport police or civil asserting that someone has the right to travel on board a train without a ticket or in any other circumstances prescribed by the byelaws as it is not within the realms of their duties. They must always defer to the senior railway official in charge which in the case of conveyance by train is the guard or driver on a Driver Only service (I can assure you that they don't always like it but will always concede it).

That all accords with my understanding of the situation, which is why I queried the 'credentials' of the off-duty police officer. When as a young man I worked in a Housing Aid Centre on Euston Road in Central London we heard of an individual approaching young men at Euston and King's Cross saying he was the Bishop of Medway (he was even in full regalia!) and taking advantage of their naivety/ desperation in consequence. It was only when the British Transport Police were finally persuaded (by me, actually) that there was no such office within any recognised church that they took action, although only to warn him off. I regret it was a couple of further years before, following information passed to the Evening Standard, he was arrested, charged and jailed for sexual offences.

 

[Robertj21a]

Interestingly Centrebus, who are not known as being an overly customer-friendly operator, have this information on their website. The relevant section would be "No alternate service that day" so as long as the taxi wasn't four times the single ticket you'd be fine, but given the cost of rural taxis I think you would still be out of pocket even with the very high bus fares that are charged!!

https://www.centrebus.info/index.php/contact-us/delay-compensation

What might you get back?
For completed journeys - the value of the ticket you have purchased from us

For journeys not completed - the value of a standard single ticket for the intended journey, or the value of your ticket if you have already purchased one.

Season tickets - the proportional daily cost of your ticket

No alternate service that day - the value of a journey on an alternate mode, up to 4 times the standard single fare[/QU

I've generally found Centrebus/High Peak to be quite customer friendly.

 

[Deerfold]

Back in 1994, the last Barton bus from Nottingham to Castle Donington sailed past me at about 0030 as I returned from my then girlfriend's. I was somewhat annoyed as I was already out later than I probably should have been and walked home annoyed for half an hour or so. When i got home I left a polite but annoyed answerphone message and went to bed. 3 days later a free ZigZag day ticket and an apologetic letter landed on my doorstep, which seemed very fair.

 

[TheAlbanach_]

So this happened to me last night in London .Was waiting for the last RV1 from Covent Garden which didn't appear. So I phoned the TfL helpline and they told me it had departed early and advised me to walk to Aldwyc to get another bus. That bus also didn't appear... Spoke to a bus driver who refused to help anyone. Then phoned up TfL again, demanded a taxi to get myself and my boyfriend back to our hotel since it was now 1am and we were stranded. They refused, instead telling me to walk aimlessly to certain areas to try and find another bus that they could not even guarantee was running. In the end a police officer helped us,advised us to get a taxi and claim it back from TfL.

 

[Mwanesh]

So this happened to me last night in London .Was waiting for the last RV1 from Covent Garden which didn't appear. So I phoned the TfL helpline and they told me it had departed early and advised me to walk to Aldwyc to get another bus. That bus also didn't appear... Spoke to a bus driver who refused to help anyone. Then phoned up TfL again, demanded a taxi to get myself and my boyfriend back to our hotel since it was now 1am and we were stranded. They refused, instead telling me to walk aimlessly to certain areas to try and find another bus that they could not even guarantee was running. In the end a police officer helped us,advised us to get a taxi and claim it back from TfL.

Good luck with that one.You will be moved from pillar to post.Your time and postage stamps will be worth more than the taxi fare.Any correspondence you send will just vanish in the system .Just take is a lesson learned.

 

[vlad]

This puts me in mind of the 1959 Hancock's Half Hour episode "The Last Bus Home". After a trip to the cinema, the cast aren't allowed on the last bus as it's full so have to walk home (unsuccessfully).

 

[PeterC]

SNIP

I believe that the last bus on a route, especially on lightly used rural routes, often tends to run early so the driver can clock off early (even though they risk disciplinary action if caught doing this). More recently I've had problems with the last bus on the 140 since it's been run by Littles Travel (see my now-closed thread on this at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/littles-travel-poor-reliability-on-evening-buses.144836).
/SNIP

Now of purely historic interest but in the early 70s the last bus from Aberystwyth to Borth ran back in service. The only passengers were on the outbound journey for a hall of residence in Borth so after leaving the town centre the driver just floored it in both directions. By the time it reached the main campus at Penglais on the return journey it would be at least 15 minutes early. I only made the mistake of waiting for it when returning late from Penglais to my digs in town once.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now of purely historic interest but in the early 70s the last bus from Aberystwyth to Borth ran back in service. The only passengers were on the outbound journey for a hall of residence in Borth so after leaving the town centre the driver just floored it in both directions. By the time it reached the main campus at Penglais on the return journey it would be at least 15 minutes early. I only made the mistake of waiting for it when returning late from Penglais to my digs in town once.

The ubiquity of GPS tracking (which means drivers WILL get caught at it) seems to have mostly put the kibosh on this practice, with buses around MK usually quite diligently waiting for time at timing points rather than running (often very) early as used to be the case.

 

[Robertj21a]

So this happened to me last night in London .Was waiting for the last RV1 from Covent Garden which didn't appear. So I phoned the TfL helpline and they told me it had departed early and advised me to walk to Aldwyc to get another bus. That bus also didn't appear... Spoke to a bus driver who refused to help anyone. Then phoned up TfL again, demanded a taxi to get myself and my boyfriend back to our hotel since it was now 1am and we were stranded. They refused, instead telling me to walk aimlessly to certain areas to try and find another bus that they could not even guarantee was running. In the end a police officer helped us,advised us to get a taxi and claim it back from TfL.

Quite difficult to actually get 'stranded' in central London when there are numerous all-night bus services. The distances aren't usually very great either, many quite walkable.

 

[TheAlbanach_]

Quite difficult to actually get 'stranded' in central London when there are numerous all-night bus services. The distances aren't usually very great either, many quite walkable.

Point is they shouldn't be running last services early and advising people to walk for any distance with the chance (they couldn't guarantee anything they said was correct) that they could get a bus.

 

[infobleep]

Good luck with that one.You will be moved from pillar to post.Your time and postage stamps will be worth more than the taxi fare.Any correspondence you send will just vanish in the system .Just take is a lesson learned.

What is the lesson they have learned? Don't travel on the last bus? Don't use buses at all?

 

[PeterC]

What is the lesson they have learned? Don't travel on the last bus? Don't use buses at all?

Once upon a time I used to go to a regular gig on a Friday night as I could get the penultimate bus of the day home, with the last bus as a fallback. When they dropped that last bus from the timetable I just stopped going to that gig as I couldn't rely on getting home any more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Point is they shouldn't be running last services early and advising people to walk for any distance with the chance (they couldn't guarantee anything they said was correct) that they could get a bus.

No bus service should ever run early under any circumstances. It is either lazy or incompetent or both to do so, and should be a serious disciplinary matter if done repeatedly rather than a one-off accident. Better to run it a little late if anything. (I know it's the practice of some LNR guards to deliberately depart about 3-4 minutes late on the last train of the evening from Euston to ensure they get all the stragglers, there's enough slack at that time of night to catch it back up).

 

[175mph]

No bus service should ever run early under any circumstances. It is either lazy or incompetent or both to do so, and should be a serious disciplinary matter if done repeatedly rather than a one-off accident. Better to run it a little late if anything. (I know it's the practice of some LNR guards to deliberately depart about 3-4 minutes late on the last train of the evening from Euston to ensure they get all the stragglers, there's enough slack at that time of night to catch it back up).

On Sundays, our two night time circulars that also run during Saturdays and weekdays at night often see the buses running up to ten minutes earlier past many stops than they are supposed to.

On Sunday evenings, the timetable is slightly different with a five minutes difference due to not serving Tesco, due to it being closed by the evening, but even so, I've noticed most of the drivers almost never wait at the timing points they are supposed to resulting in getting back to the bus station sometimes almost 15 minutes earlier than they should be doing.

When I mentioned this to one of the drivers, they admitted that since there's nobody to check on a Sunday night, it's a pretty much free for all Sunday nights, sometimes you'll even get two drivers doing the two circulars seeing who can beat one another back to the bus station.