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Buxton to Marple - valid via New Mills Central?

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aye2beeviasea

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Hello, is the £16.00 off peak day return Buxton to Marple valid for a change between the two New Mills stations, then via Strines?

For that matter, is it ever likely to be quicker than going into Manchester and back?

Similarly I assume Buxton to Sheffield is valid by walking between the two New Mills stations as you're just slicing off a bit of the journey, though I'm not sure it's actually practicable :)

Thanks!
 
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lyndhurst25

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The £16 Buxton to Marple off-peak return is routed "via Manchester", so strictly speaking wouldn't be valid between New Mils Central and Marple. Would anyone objecting to it being used that way???

If you wanted to do the walk between the two New Mills stations then it would be cheaper to buy separate tickets anyway. Buxton to New Mills Newtown £7.50 plus New Mills Central to Marple £4.10 (£4.80 if returning in evening peak). TOTAL £11.60 (or £12.30).

If you did want to travel via Manchester on one leg of the journey, then a GM Wayfarer at £14, beats the pricey £16 Buxton to Marple ticket.


Strange that there's no ticket inter-availability between the two New Mills stations. Tickets from Central to Manchester cost more than ones from Newtown. The journey from Central to Manchester is a little bit quicker though. Maybe that's the reason?
 

yorkie

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Hello, is the £16.00 off peak day return Buxton to Marple valid for a change between the two New Mills stations, then via Strines?
No; despite being a permitted route, tickets are only valid via Manchester (the shortest route, and any routes shorter than the shortest route) are not permitted on these tickets.

The rail industry wants you to purchase a combination of tickets for this journey.

The rail industry is restricting more and more fares in this way.
For that matter, is it ever likely to be quicker than going into Manchester and back?
Absolutely
http://www.fastjp.com/#journeys?orig=BUX&dest=MPL&odate=20190417&otime=0930&maxres=22&maxch=4
Similarly I assume Buxton to Sheffield is valid by walking between the two New Mills stations ...
Yes.
 

kieron

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No, but the £11.00 off peak day return from Buxton to Reddish North is valid that way. There is a reason for this, but it's very silly.

According to fastjp.com, it's usually (if not always) faster that way.

Buxton-Sheffield is also valid that way (as nationalrail.co.uk shows), but it's often quicker to change at Stockport as the faster and more frequent trains make up for the detour.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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This is an excellent example of one of the many problems introduced by the RDG's insatiable craze for eliminating "Any Permitted", and replacing this with either route dot (".", displayed as "Any - Permitted" on some systems) or "via X". Not to mention some of the crazy repercussions this has with the Routeing Guide and booking engines.

The through fares from Buxton to Marple are all routed "via Manchester". Sensible, in one sense, because that is how they are priced. But totally nonsensical as soon as you look at the fastest journey opportunities between the two stations.

A website like www.fastjp.com, which purely looks for the fastest possible options and isn't constrained by ticket routes, the Routeing Guide, easements and so on, will clearly show that the fastest route between Buxton and Marple is, almost invariably, changing at New Mills Newtown and New Mills Central, with a walk between the two. The journey time is approximately 1'05" this way.

It also shows itineraries, that are almost entirely overtaken by the above route, where you change at Manchester Piccadilly. The journey time is approximately 1'45" this way - so, unless there is a specific reason why you can't, or would prefer not to, walk between Newtown and Central, I would have thought that travelling via Manchester is not an attractive option.

The issue is the route of "via Manchester" though. For Routeing Guide purposes, this means that the ticket is effectively two tickets in one: a Buxton to Manchester ticket, and a Manchester to Marple ticket. You have the right to stop short, or start late, on either portion, as none of the tickets in question have any break of journey restrictions.

One valid route (as per the Routeing Guide) for a plain Buxton to Manchester ticket, is via New Mills Newtown and Central. That is because it is shorter than the shortest route that involves solely using trains (via Stockport), at 24.31 vs 25.66 miles. But that, too, is affected, by a ludicrous ticket route - "via Stockport". It is only through the saving grace of a ticket route easement, which permits tickets routed "via Stockport" to be used via Romiley too, that this route is actually permitted.

So, to answer your question itself, yes, this is a valid route - as you can simply stop short at Marple, before ever reaching the via point of Manchester.

But the story goes further. If you enter 'via New Mills Central' into most booking engines - such as Northern's website, LNER's website, TrainsCanBeCheaper (the non-splitting variant of TrainSplit), or indeed something like The Trainline - it will simply tell you that there are no valid routes.

This is, as explained above, preposterously incorrect. It appears that most booking engines simply don't take into account the fact that it is permissible to stop short on the ticket in this way. To give them credit where it's due, this is no doubt a difficult thing to implement.

But then other websites have other results. If you use Chiltern's website, for instance, it will sell you tickets for the itinerary that FastJP produces - but in fact it is not one ticket that they are selling you, but instead a combination of tickets (which happens to be cheaper than the through fare, if you are avoiding Manchester).

And if you use an ATOS MixingDeck based site, such as TransPennine Express' old-style site, you can be sold the 'via Manchester' fare with an itinerary via New Mills Newtown, Central, into Piccadilly, and back out to Marple - i.e. doubling back between Marple and Piccadilly (which is perfectly valid, given the ticket route)! Admittedly, getting this kind of itinerary to show up is a little complicated, as you first have to enter the journey via New Mills Central in the "timetables only" mode, where it will initially appear to have ignored the via point, and then you also have to add "calling at Manchester Piccadilly", and it will then produce the itinerary, which you can then select to buy a ticket for.

This has to be one of the craziest examples of the problems that the dysfunctional rail industry's ticketing systems, and in particular the cack-handed "attempts" to fix it, can cause.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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No; despite being a permitted route, tickets are only valid via Manchester (the shortest route, and any routes shorter than the shortest route) are not permitted on these tickets.

No, but the £11.00 off peak day return from Buxton to Reddish North is valid that way. There is a reason for this, but it's very silly.

As per my post above, it is valid, as it is shorter than the shortest route! (And you can then stop short/start late at Marple)
 

yorkie

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As per my post above, it is valid, as it is shorter than the shortest route! (And you can then stop short/start late at Marple)
Are you saying Manchester to Marple is valid via New Mills Central?

Or are you saying the "via Manchester" restriction is unlawful as it imposes a restriction that is contrary to the NRCoT which permits us to use the shortest route (and an implied right to use routes that are shorter than the shortest route by rail)?

Or something else?
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Are you saying Manchester to Marple is valid via New Mills Central?

Or are you saying the "via Manchester" restriction is unlawful as it imposes a restriction that is contrary to the NRCoT which permits us to use the shortest route (and an implied right to use routes that are shorter than the shortest route by rail)?

Or something else?
What I meant is that Buxton to Manchester is valid via New Mills Central (and Marple).

I wouldn't say the "via Manchester" route is tortious as such (which is what I think you are meaning), but it could represent a misleading statement or omission, which could therefore constitute a criminal offence under The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008.

Not that anyone with the ability and nous to prosecute such an offence is likely to care about this kind of thing, unfortunately...
 

yorkie

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What I meant is that Buxton to Manchester is valid via New Mills Central (and Marple).
Ah I see; you're saying it's valid Buxton - New Mills Central; New Mills Newton - Marple - Manchester and Manchester - Marple. True, from a routeing perspective. If the train calls at Marple en route to Manchester, the ticket ceases to be valid beyond that point, but finishing 'short' at the destination is permitted.

Booking engines can't implement this but I agree it has to be valid contractually.

Rather like https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/london-euston-to-edale-via-stockport.148525/#post-3025082 which discussed omitting a doubleback between Stockport & Manchester.
 

kieron

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So, to answer your question itself, yes, this is a valid route - as you can simply stop short at Marple, before ever reaching the via point of Manchester.
Sorry, yes it is valid that way. nre.co.uk* will even give an itinerary that way.

Buxton-Marple fares were changed from "any permitted" ones last year, so I suppose it is just an example of a route change that they didn't really think through.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for this link to display correctly.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Ah I see; you're saying it's valid Buxton - New Mills Central; New Mills Newton - Marple - Manchester and Manchester - Marple. True, from a routeing perspective. If the train calls at Marple en route to Manchester, the ticket ceases to be valid beyond that point, but finishing 'short' at the destination is permitted.
You can get itineraries for travel via Manchester, so if anyone was crazy enough to want to pay more to travel via a more inconvenient route, just to get to Manchester, they would be entitled to follow an itinerary beyond their destination.

Booking engines can't implement this but I agree it has to be valid contractually.
They could, but I agree that it might be difficult to do so!
 

yorkie

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You can get itineraries for travel via Manchester, so if anyone was crazy enough to want to pay more to travel via a more inconvenient route, just to get to Manchester, they would be entitled to follow an itinerary beyond their destination.
A booking engine that is correctly programmed to recognise that a ticket expires when your train calls at the destination printed on the ticket will not do so, so this relies on a train calling at NMC but not Marple (which I think isn't a thing in the current timetable) or on a booking engine being incorrectly programmed (and yes I know some are).
They could, but I agree that it might be difficult to do so!
I'm not convinced this would be within RDG's expectations to pass accreditation, though I am happy to be corrected if anyone from RDG is in a position to do so!
 

aye2beeviasea

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Wow! Thank you everyone, that's a far more complex - but far, far, far more interesting - answer than I was expecting! I'll spend a bit of time digesting that!


{One thing that leaps out though is the Reddish North ticket - that suggests that for a simple Buxton to Manchester return I should get Buxton to Reddish North return (£11.00 off peak, £17.30 anytime) instead, but NOT change at New Mills!} Forget this, I was confusing myself with all the options, they're the same price anyway.

Got to admit my head's hurting a little now!
 
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