Buying a ticket at the 'first available opportunity'

[hairyhandedfool]

Discretion is often shown where disabilities are concerned.

 

[Fare-Cop]

At south Elmsall, a wheelchair user accessing the machine (which is on the Leeds bound platform) would involve a 10 minute journey via three local streets.

I don't see how posters on here can say "walked past an opportunity to pay" when it is so far away.

I just made the very point that in the case of a disabled traveller, allowances should be made. See quote below:

It is unlikely that the same decision would have been reached in the case of a disabled traveller, but then it is equally unlikely that a prosecution could be properly brought in such a case.

For able bodied travellers, I don't think it is our opinion as forum users that matters, but it is the opinion of Magistrates who are required to decide whether the person who may be accused of an offence is guilty of that offence that will count.

 

[Flamingo]

At south Elmsall, a wheelchair user accessing the machine (which is on the Leeds bound platform) would involve a 10 minute journey via three local streets.

I don't see how posters on here can say "walked past an opportunity to pay" when it is so far away.

As my revenue colleague has said, unless a special circumstance, like a disability, is present, not leaving time to get a ticket, or putting it bluntly, being too lazy to walk to a ticket sales point is not going to be viewed as a valid defence.

 

[ryan125hst]

As Flamingo says, provided that the facility is within the area that is the station, the distance from the ticket machine or booking office to the platform from which the traveller wishes to leave has no bearing on the liability for payment of a fare.

This might be the case, but one problem that has been identified is signage, or rather the lack of it. If it is a passenger's first time to a station and the ticket machine is on the other platform (say that there is an entrance on both platforms). If the ticket machine cannot clearly be seen from the other platform and there are no signs pointing to it (along with other signs explaining penalty fares), then surely the passenger is not in the wrong?

 

[broadgage]

In my view, a long walk to the ticket machine is not a valid excuse for not buying a ticket, if you can see the machine, or signs directing one to the machine, then it should be used.

What is in my view a valid excuse is if the customer could reasonably believe that no ticket machine is provided.
If no machine, nor signs directing one to a machine are visible from the entrance or platform, then in my view that is a valid excuse.

Just how long is one meant to spend searching a station for a well hidden ticket machine ?
To hide the machine in a shelter on another platform and not sign post it sounds to me like deliberate entrapment, and I suspect that a court would share this view.
If clear signs are provided directing one to a distant ticket machine then that in my view is poor customer service but not actually entrapment.

 

[pemma]

This is the point: many of the examples in this thread (I believe Nantwich, Todmorden, Slaithwaite, possibly Duffield) _are_ the old PayTrain stations of the 1970s and 80s.

When Northern sent the ex-ATN 150s over to the west side they use to have a BR notice on them relating to 'PayTrain' before Northern gave them a refresh but I've not no idea which routes they would have been used on in the mid 1980s.

 

[Flamingo]

Just to set something straight, for those of a more paranoid disposition, rail companies are not into "entrapment". Much more is lost innon-payment of fares (deliberate or otherwise) than is gained in the whole range of penalty fares, excess fares, court fines (which do NOT go to the TOC) or even Northern's £80 charge.

It is in TOC's interest to have points available for ticket purchase. The balance between accessability and the protection of TVM's (both from the elements and vandalism) means that the passenger may not trip over them on their way to the train, but let's stop the rubbish about their location being chosen to deliberately hide them!

 

[broomster]

At south Elmsall, a wheelchair user accessing the machine (which is on the Leeds bound platform) would involve a 10 minute journey via three local streets.

I don't see how posters on here can say "walked past an opportunity to pay" when it is so far away.

The quoted problem wouldn't happen, as I'm sure they could ask before boarding.. Ie when the guard was getting the ramp.. Any guard who says no in such situations is probably going to open a huge can of worms for themselves leaving a disabled passenger at a station who was willing to pay...

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[sheff1]

.. but let's stop the rubbish about their location being chosen to deliberately hide them!

It might not be deliberate, but if Northern did want to hide the new booking offices at, for example, Blackburn and Glossop they would struggle to find better locations !

If booking offices are going to located other than in the obvious place of the station entrance hall, then clear (or even any sort of ) signposting should be a given.

 

[alcockell]

I have mobility issues (currently housebound as recovering from cellulitis - but have been walking with a stick for a while).

In the case of small unmanned stations with direct access to each platform, surely the fairest solution would be to put PTT or TVMs on every platform? Thereby helping the passenger?

if there's a choke-point and a concourse of sorts - put them there...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It might not be deliberate, but if Northern did want to hide the new booking offices at, for example, Blackburn and Glossop they would struggle to find better locations !

If booking offices are going to located other than in the obvious place of the station entrance hall, then clear (or even any sort of ) signposting should be a given.

Glossop? Isn't that on the right as you enter the station underneath the sign that says "Tickets"?

 

[sheff1]

Glossop? Isn't that on the right as you enter the station underneath the sign that says "Tickets"?

A thread last year explained all.

 

[Fare-Cop]

It would be very helpful to have large, clear signs at all stations directing intending travellers to the ticket office or machines, but it really doesn't matter how good they are, there always have been and always will be those who either:

i) do not leave sufficient time to arrive for their intended train and buy a ticket
ii) feel that they are so important that queuing is beneath them, even when queues are moving well within charter guidelines
iii) just can't be bothered to buy a ticket, but will do if asked
iv) do not intend to pay - ever
v) will travel regardless of the fact that they do not have a ticket or the means to pay

 

[edwin_m]

But the signs would remove one reason, or excuse depending on your point of view, not to buy a ticket before boarding.

 

[Flamingo]

But the signs would remove one reason, or excuse depending on your point of view, not to buy a ticket before boarding.

Paddington station has prominent signs at the end of every platform where every passenger has to walk past them, and regular automated announcements, informing passengers they must buy before boarding or potentially face a penalty fare.

I regularly get passengers respond to being told this as I sell them a ticket "Why are there no posters up telling people this?"

As I have said before, the railway has been in operation nearly 200 years in this country. In all that time, it has never been a free service. It is safe to say that every single passenger knows that they need to pay for their journey, and need to have a ticket.

 

[edwin_m]

So it is legitimately possible to PF passengers who board at Paddington without tickets because reasonable efforts have been made to make passengers aware of this.

If passengers are not made aware of the need to buy a ticket before boarding at a particular station, when this was often acceptable in the past and still is at many stations today, then anyone PF'd or prosecuted has a potential defence. If this information is not provided then there will be some occasional users who genuinely aren't aware, and a much larger group who no doubt know they should buy a ticket but can use this omission as an excuse not to do so.

Very similar to the situation with various road traffic offences where there are lawyers who can get people off if the signage etc is not 100% compliant with the standards.

 

[Harpers Tate]

It is safe to say that every single passenger knows that they need to pay for their journey, and need to have a ticket.

Yes it is. Of course. However, I believe you are mixing issues here. It's is not whether to pay; it is when. And, as we have discussed ad nauseam here and elsewhere, that is not quite as clear as you seem to believe it is.

We have an almost random combination of differing practices and facilities at stations and on trains; varied opening hours, unpredictable queues, and so on. And history has seen changes to what passengers are required to do in order to pay their due fares which again varies almost randomly with location. There is no consistency either at one moment in time or over time over when to pay - other than this "at the first opportunity" thing which is so varied as to be virtually unpredictable.

Coupled with this we have TOCs and employees who seem to want to extract as much money as they can by fining people who have no intent to avoid paying (in the broad sense of the dictionary definition for the purists here) often with justification that, whilst it may be within the letter of the rules, is morally reprehensible.

 

[jb]

not whether... it is when... not quite as clear... no consistency... over when... to pay - other than this "at the first opportunity" thing which is so varied as to be virtually unpredictable... TOCs... want to extract... morally reprehensible.

For the millionth time:

"Consistency" means either complete anarchy over ticket purchase or closing thousands of stations. Which is it?

 

[bnm]

It is impractical, nay impossible, to have a 'one size fits all' policy with regard to ticket purchasing. You can not, for example, enforce the rules that apply at Birmingham New Street to Berney Arms. What is permissible at Pilning can not be allowed at Paddington.

What does need defining more clearly is 'earliest opportunity'.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Consistency is impossible. I agree. I never suggested it was possible.

So therefore we ought not to make assumptions about what people using the Railway will think is legal and/or practice. Knowing a fare is due (as Flamingo says) isn't enough on its own. Lack of consistency means it is reasonable to assume that someone, knowing a fare is due, may believe it is acceptable to pay it onboard (because, for example, last week, that's exactly what they did on Grand Central).

 

[sheff1]

"Consistency" means either complete anarchy over ticket purchase or closing thousands of stations. Which is it?

Neither, because those are not the two options.

 

[Controller1701]

Back in March I had reason to use Keynsham station over the course of a weekend, now I have never been there, had no idea of what if any facilities are there for the purchasing of tickets. On the Friday night on arrival, what did I do... Correct searched over both platforms and entrances to try and ascertain the location if present of any ticket machines. On the Saturday morning I then made sure that I was at the station much much earlier than required for the train, my reason being... you guessed it, to make sure that in daylight I performed another full search of the station and its environs just in case I missed a machine the previous night in the darkness. Having failed to identify a ticket machine, my next action was to text my mate who was already on the train I was catching to ascertain the location of the FGW conductor so that on arrival of the train I could be in an appropriate position to enable me to get on by their door and advise them that I required a ticket. Sunday was a repeat text and even required not travelling with my mate as he was in the front unit and the conductor was in the rear unit. Now why did I do this, oh yes because I am a law abiding citizen who knows that it is my responsibility to make sure that to get and maintain in my personal possession a valid ticket for any journey I am making, even if this means not travelling in the company of friends.

Paul

 

[broadgage]

It could be resolved very easily as follows

"The railway industry must ensure, that when resonably practicable, that means are provided to sell tickets, via a manned ticket office, or by automatic machines. these ticket selling facilities must be either clearly visible from the station entrance, or be clearly signed from that point"

"When it is not reasonably practical to offer ticket selling facilities, then this must be indicated by one or more clear signs worded NO TICKET SELLING FACILITIES AT THIS STATION, PLEASE PAY EN-ROUTE OR AT YOUR DESTINATION"

 

[yorkie]

Controller1701 - I strongly disagree that you are under such obligations, though a small but irritating minority in the rail industry do, sadly, seem to think that way.

broadgage - I doubt they would comply with that. TOCs such as Northern seem to delight in having hidden ticket machines (e.g. at Garforth - only visible if you enter from a car park entrance on one side of the station, and even then it could be mistaken for a vending machine) and then catching people out. There's no effective ombudsman to uphold standards, hence huge inconsistencies between TOCs. FCC have to put up loads of signage in order to charge £20 penalty fares, but Northern don't seem to have to put up a single sign to collect a £80 'fixed penalty' notice, which I think is all part of their plan to catch people out.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Back in March I had reason to use Keynsham station over the course of a weekend
Paul

Indeed Keynsham brings up an issue itself. There is a sign saying there is a ticket machine on the station, but in actual fact, as you found out, there isn't one. I think there used to be one a few years ago but it was taken away (similar to Oldfield Park a stop further down the line).

 

[Urban Gateline]

Indeed Keynsham brings up an issue itself. There is a sign saying there is a ticket machine on the station, but in actual fact, as you found out, there isn't one. I think there used to be one a few years ago but it was taken away (similar to Oldfield Park a stop further down the line).

Indeed, a Photo on NRE shows the TVM definitely used to exist there!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Indeed, a Photo on NRE shows the TVM definitely used to exist there!

Interestingly the NRE page for Oldfield Park displays this message:

Please note that there is no ticket machine at Oldfield Park station (the photograph / information in the 'Stations Made Easy' section is incorrect). Tickets should be purchased from station / train staff

Despite the fact I can't see a photograph showing the old machine. Surely the page for Keynsham should have one too? (I would also argue pages like that should be kept up to date and if a picture shows a facility that is no longer there then it should be removed).

 

[broadgage]

Controller1701 - I strongly disagree that you are under such obligations, though a small but irritating minority in the rail industry do, sadly, seem to think that way.

broadgage - I doubt they would comply with that. TOCs such as Northern seem to delight in having hidden ticket machines (e.g. at Garforth - only visible if you enter from a car park entrance on one side of the station, and even then it could be mistaken for a vending machine) and then catching people out. There's no effective ombudsman to uphold standards, hence huge inconsistencies between TOCs. FCC have to put up loads of signage in order to charge £20 penalty fares, but Northern don't seem to have to put up a single sign to collect a £80 'fixed penalty' notice, which I think is all part of their plan to catch people out.

I agree that some TOCs would be unlikely to comply with my suggestion, and I think that this or something very similar, worded in proper legal language should be a legal requirement.
This is nothing unduly onerous, expensive, or unreasonable in my suggestion.
I would also also agree with your view that in some cases at least that there is a plan to catch people out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So it is legitimately possible to PF passengers who board at Paddington without tickets because reasonable efforts have been made to make passengers aware of this.

I would argue that anyone boarding at Paddington without a valid ticket would normaly be liable for a penalty fare.
I have observed notices at Paddington stating that tickets must be purchased before boarding.
The only likely exception would seem to be if some exceptional event (flood, power cut, fire evacuation, industrial dispute etc) prevented tickets being sold.

 

[alastair]

Back in March I had reason to use Keynsham station over the course of a weekend, now I have never been there, had no idea of what if any facilities are there for the purchasing of tickets. On the Friday night on arrival, what did I do... Correct searched over both platforms and entrances to try and ascertain the location if present of any ticket machines. On the Saturday morning I then made sure that I was at the station much much earlier than required for the train, my reason being... you guessed it, to make sure that in daylight I performed another full search of the station and its environs just in case I missed a machine the previous night in the darkness. Having failed to identify a ticket machine, my next action was to text my mate who was already on the train I was catching to ascertain the location of the FGW conductor so that on arrival of the train I could be in an appropriate position to enable me to get on by their door and advise them that I required a ticket. Sunday was a repeat text and even required not travelling with my mate as he was in the front unit and the conductor was in the rear unit. Now why did I do this, oh yes because I am a law abiding citizen who knows that it is my responsibility to make sure that to get and maintain in my personal possession a valid ticket for any journey I am making, even if this means not travelling in the company of friends.

Paul

Sorry but are'nt you making a bit of a meal out of this? If you were that concerned about whether or not Keynsham had a machine you could have checked NRE which clearly states that it does not.

 

[Deerfold]

Sorry but are'nt you making a bit of a meal out of this? If you were that concerned about whether or not Keynsham had a machine you could have checked NRE which clearly states that it does not.

NRE states that my local station (Steeton & Silsden) does not have a machine.

It's wrong. And has been for a year or so.

It's been wrong about Keighley for at least 6 years.