Buying a Y/P ticket for someone else

[Going South]

I normally buy my tickets online, including for my better half who has Y/P Railcard. Never a problem.
Last week I found myself with some vouchers to spend as a result of a very late train, so on my way though Paddington I stopped at the ticket office to buy her a ticket for a future journey. The ticket office refused to sell me a Y/P priced ticket as I didn't have a Y/P card to show. I explained that I was buying for someone else and that it would/should be checked on the train but he wasn't prepared to sell it to me, alleging that I would use it myself and claim that I'd shown a Y/P card on buying it.
Now it seems to me that there are two standards being played out here; either you need to show the Railcard to buy, in which case you have to use the ticket office, (or they come up with a system to enter your railcard number when you buy online - which wuld be sensible); or you shouldn't need to show it on purchase, only when travelling.

As an aside, I remember a few years ago when I had a Y/P card losing it in transit and having to fork out for a new ticket. Ouch. So I wouldn't imagine the story outlined by the ticket office cutting much ice these days.

Thoughts?

 

[glynn80]

Now it seems to me that there are two standards being played out here; either you need to show the Railcard to buy, in which case you have to use the ticket office, (or they come up with a system to enter your railcard number when you buy online - which wuld be sensible); or you shouldn't need to show it on purchase, only when travelling.

Unfortunately it is not an "either or" situation, the Railcard must be shown when the tickets are being purchased and when they are inspected on the train.

Condtions 5 & 6 of the Railcard Terms & Conditions (http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/buy-16-25-railcard/railcard-terms-conditions) clearly explain this:

5. Tickets for your journey should be purchased before boarding the train and when buying tickets you must show the Railcard.

6. You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price Standard Single fare for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket.

Also just as an aside related specifically to the OPs situation, Rail Travel Vouchers are transferable and therefore you could have merely given the vouchers to your friend for them to purchase their own discounted tickets.

 

[eos]

Sounds like more vouchers on the way. You can legally buy train tickets for other people, ( they are not transferable to anyone other than the person they were bought for - or something like that ) You couldn't legally really be expected to be in possession of a 'female' Y/P card and expect to buy tickets with it, and the ticket could easily have been endorsed by the ticket office staff with ' YP card Not produced at purchase' leaving the on train staff or gateline staff to check. Get the complaint in now to the TOC who operates the station...
......and collect vouchers!!

 

[mumrar]

either you need to show the Railcard to buy, in which case you have to use the ticket office, (or they come up with a system to enter your railcard number when you buy online - which wuld be sensible); or you shouldn't need to show it on purchase, only when travelling.

It is actually a requirement to do both of these things. The chap in the ticket office was entirely correct in his refusal to sell you the ticket. If you only had to show the card at the point of purchase you could than pass the ticket on to anyone without a YP to try and get away with it. If you only had to show it on the train, how does the issuing member of staff know the eventual ticket holder has a YP? Recently, upon spending over £50 at Tesco shopping, I got a voucher for 5p discount per litre of fuel. Would you expect them to have sold me the fuel without the voucher? There will be people who can post you links to lots of info here I'm sure, I'm on a train at the moment, but you know the idea of innocent until proven guilty? Maybe you shouldn't have assumed the ticket office staff were in the wrong, just because you didn't get what you wanted.

 

[Max]

I was in an almost identical situation recently. I had received £30 of vouchers after a complaint to NXEC, and wanted to buy tickets using a family railcard. My railcard wouldn't have been valid at the time of my journey, however, I was holding on for the renewal because I knew that a 50% off offer was starting the following week. But I wanted to get the tickets bought because they were advance fares and I was going on holiday a couple of days later. At the station, the bloke in the ticket office kicked up a massive fuss about the railcard being out of date at the time of travel. To me though, this seems almost pointless - if I travelled with an out of date railcard I would undoubtably be chinged for a full open fare (better for the railways financially?), and I could have bought the tickets online no problem. It felt like because I was using vouchers, I was being unfairly punished.

In the end he gave in and sold the tickets, but the whole thing seemed a bit petty to me.

 

[Going South]

Thank you for such swift replies. I now understand why he didn't sell me the ticket, though not why he made an unfounded accusation instead of referring me to the terms and conditions (thanks for those btw).

glynn80As it happens I did as you suggested and passed on the vouchers; luckily the advance fare wanted was still available.

mumrarI don't think I suggested that the ticket staff were in the wrong just because I didn't get what I wanted; I suggested that the system is flawed as had I not been using vouchers I would have simply ordered the tickets online (as I often do) and would not have had to show a Railcard. I do however now suggest that the ticket office person WAS in the wrong, for not explaining (or better still, showing in print) the relevant terms and conditions, instead of simply making a false allegation. The ticket office was not busy at the time so I feel he could have done this.

eosI'm not that interested in collecting vouchers for a bit of rubbish customer service - it just pushes up prices for everyone. And as has been pointed out, the ticket guy was in the right, even if he couldn't be bothered to explain why.

My real query I suppose is this: If it is SO important to have a Railcard when purchasing tickets...why is some way of enforcing this for online transactions not in place?

 

[TEW]

I was in an almost identical situation recently. I had received £30 of vouchers after a complaint to NXEC, and wanted to buy tickets using a family railcard. My railcard wouldn't have been valid at the time of my journey, however, I was holding on for the renewal because I knew that a 50% off offer was starting the following week. But I wanted to get the tickets bought because they were advance fares and I was going on holiday a couple of days later. At the station, the bloke in the ticket office kicked up a massive fuss about the railcard being out of date at the time of travel. To me though, this seems almost pointless - if I travelled with an out of date railcard I would undoubtably be chinged for a full open fare (better for the railways financially?), and I could have bought the tickets online no problem. It felt like because I was using vouchers, I was being unfairly punished.

In the end he gave in and sold the tickets, but the whole thing seemed a bit petty to me.

The ticket staff were in the wrong then, you are able to buy tickets with a railcard which will be out of date at the time of travel.

 

[ikorodu]

The nonsencical thing here is the fact that you can get as many railcard discounted tickets as you like online without holding a railcard.
I would have thought that if this was such a big issue for the TOC's then some system would be in place online (eg. have the tickets printed with the railcard number on). Or do the TOC's think that those buying online are more trustworthy!?

In a similar vein, if I was to go to the ticket office to get a ticket for myself and my 6 year old son would I have to take him with me to prove to the ticket staff that I was not a fraud?

ikorodu

 

[yorkie]

The way things are going, staff who refuse to issue tickets are putting their own jobs in jeopardy by doing so, because you can get the ticket they are refusing to sell online by using a computer that isn't rude, isn't obstructive, and shows you the full range of fares.

What we need is for ALL tickets to be available online, including Rover tickets.

 

[Going South]

The way things are going, staff who refuse to issue tickets are putting their own jobs in jeopardy by doing so,

The cynic in me suggests that TOCs may have thought of this... Refuse to sell the ticket, drive customers to the internet, cut down on ticket staff... OR ticket seller sells tickets against T&Cs (and therefore job spec.), disciplinary procedures, et cetera, et cetera.

 

[martyn29]

as a travel advisor at a station, I would not sell a ticket without seeing the rail card.

 

[ikorodu]

as a travel advisor at a station, I would not sell a ticket without seeing the rail card.

Would you sell me a child ticket, without seeing my child?

 

[mumrar]

Would you sell me a child ticket, without seeing my child?

That's not really the same, all children under the age of 16 are by definition under the age of 16. Not all 16-25 year olds (or mature students etc.) have railcards, not all pensioners have senior railcards, and surprisingly not all disabled travellers have railcards. All people who are aged from 5-15 are aged from 5-15 which is the qualification for the discount.

 

[martyn29]

Yes I would

 

[37401]

Would you sell me a child ticket, without seeing my child?

err yes, many times people buy tix for other people not there at the time.

imagine someone treating there child to a day out, the parent is going to get the ticket without the child knowing so he/she wont be there!

 

[yorkie]

By the same logic, all railcard holders have railcards so what's the difference? If you can't see the child how can you know they are aged 5-15?

What purpose does this serve, given that you can get railcard discounted tickets from machines and online?

 

[TEW]

But railcards aren't always checked on trains, if a 50 year old is using a child ticket it will be picked up on.

 

[ikorodu]

But railcards aren't always checked on trains, if a 50 year old is using a child ticket it will be picked up on.

That makes no sense at all. If your tickets are not checked then a 50 year old could travel on a child fare without detection as easily as a 24 yo could get away with the discounted fare but no railcard. The risk of fraud is the same whether getting a railcard fare or a child fare. The t&cs for the railcard are clearly from a time when ticket machines and internet purchasing were not around. They need updating.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's not really the same, all children under the age of 16 are by definition under the age of 16. Not all 16-25 year olds (or mature students etc.) have railcards, not all pensioners have senior railcards, and surprisingly not all disabled travellers have railcards. All people who are aged from 5-15 are aged from 5-15 which is the qualification for the discount.

How would the ticket seller know that I had a child and was not planning on using the ticket fraudulently for an adult? They wouldn't, just like they wouldn't know if the railcard fare was for real railcard holder or not. So why sell a child fare without the child being present, but not the railcard fare without the railcard being present? The point to detect fraud is using onboard checks, not by refusing to sell people what they ask for.

 

[mumrar]

Ok then, let's start selling Off-Peak tickets at all times of the day, give everyone railcard and child discounts regardless and employ an army of staff to do the on board checks. That's like saying the Police are at fault if someone dies while speeding, as it was up to them to detect the crime. I'll also make sure I lie on my tax return, as it's up to them to find me out, and the same for my car tax and MOT.

 

[glynn80]

The point to detect fraud is using onboard checks, not by refusing to sell people what they ask for.

And for those TOCs who do not carry out onboard checks and revenue protect in other ways?

 

[Greenback]

What if someone brings along a child, buys a child ticket and then uses it him/herself? What if someone buys a ticket with a railcard and then gives the ticket to someone without a railcard?

As an ex sales advisor I don't really see how refusing to sell someone a ticket helps that much. And no, I wasn't dismissed for not following 'the rules'!!!

 

[glynn80]

What if someone brings along a child, buys a child ticket and then uses it him/herself? What if someone buys a ticket with a railcard and then gives the ticket to someone without a railcard?

There are always going to be those determined to commit fraud, but by refusing to sell discounted tickets until the booking office clerk is sure those attempting to purchase are actually entitled to discounted tickets, is one link in the chain to prevent fare evasion.

 

[yorkie]

Ok then, let's start selling Off-Peak tickets at all times of the day,

They already are. NR site says "Buy any time, travel off-peak" so if that is false they'll have to answer to the Advertising Standards Agency. They can write "Valid after 0930" (or whatever) on the ticket if they insist.

give everyone railcard and child discounts regardless

Websites & ticket machines already do, if you ask for it.

and employ an army of staff to do the on board checks.

There should be enough staff to do on board checks

That's like saying the Police are at fault if someone dies while speeding, as it was up to them to detect the crime.

I can't see any analogy to suggest that. The equivalent would be to not sell cars that are capable of more than 70mph?

I'll also make sure I lie on my tax return, as it's up to them to find me out, and the same for my car tax and MOT.

No-one is suggesting lying.

And for those TOCs who do not carry out onboard checks and revenue protect in other ways?

If they rely on ticket staff not selling discounted tickets, then anyone going to a ticket machine will get round that! So I don't think any TOC would purely rely on that!

 

[90019]

Ok then, let's start selling Off-Peak tickets at all times of the day, give everyone railcard and child discounts regardless and employ an army of staff to do the on board checks. That's like saying the Police are at fault if someone dies while speeding, as it was up to them to detect the crime. I'll also make sure I lie on my tax return, as it's up to them to find me out, and the same for my car tax and MOT.

So they shouldn't sell child tickets without the child being there?
And no tickets should be sold if the person they're for isn't there?

Should they stop seeling all railcard discounted or child tickets online and make you go to the station to prove that it's the right ticket?

:?

 

[Max]

If they rely on ticket staff not selling discounted tickets, then anyone going to a ticket machine will get round that! So I don't think any TOC would purely rely on that!

One thing to note, you can't buy a child ticket on it's own from a fast-ticket machine. This means that if you are under 16 and the booking office is closed, you have no choice but to buy on the train. But would some TOCs (eg. NXEC) buy this?

 

[Greenback]

There are always going to be those determined to commit fraud, but by refusing to sell discounted tickets until the booking office clerk is sure those attempting to purchase are actually entitled to discounted tickets, is one link in the chain to prevent fare evasion.

True, but if they are detemrined to commit fraud they will probably buy on line or at a machine anyway! The result, as in this case, is that genuine customers can end up inconvenienced and annoyed!

 

[Tom B]

I really don't see why they shouldn't sell tickets without the YPR being present. Hell, I've bought them many a time. Of course you take the YPR with you when you travel - if companies do not bother to check railcards on trains then that is their problem.

 

[ikorodu]

There are always going to be those determined to commit fraud, but by refusing to sell discounted tickets until the booking office clerk is sure those attempting to purchase are actually entitled to discounted tickets, is one link in the chain to prevent fare evasion.

But TOC's are happy to allow this 'link' to be broken both online and at machines, so they are clearly not that concerned about it. So why keep it at the ticket office? If it is a big issue for the TOC's then I would have thought they would update the online systems/machines to only issue Railcard fares when a vaild rail card numbr is entered and this then printed on teh ticket. Clearly they do not see this upgrade as making financial sense so they allow anyone to buy a discounted ticked online or at a machine.

I agree that some will be determined to commit fraud, but I think this outdated condition is doing very little to stop those who are or are not determined.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And for those TOCs who do not carry out onboard checks and revenue protect in other ways?

They have taken a decision (presumably based on their business model) that means that they are prepared to accept that their anti-fraud policy will not be as robust as those TOC's who do onboard checks. They must think that the cost benifit analysis of having onboard inspection does not stack up, which they are entitled to do.

 

[tony_mac]

I agree that some will be determined to commit fraud, but I think this outdated condition is doing very little to stop those who are or are not determined.

I think that 'outdated' is probably a good word to use. In the days of internet sales and ticket machines this now probably does more to inconvenience genuine customers than to protect revenue.

I also wonder how often it gets applied to different railcard types.
If an elderly person tried to buy two advance tickets with senior railcards, would the ticket office staff really refuse unless both were present? Or what about one with a disabled railcard?

 

[glynn80]

But TOC's are happy to allow this 'link' to be broken both online and at machines, so they are clearly not that concerned about it. So why keep it at the ticket office? If it is a big issue for the TOC's then I would have thought they would update the online systems/machines to only issue Railcard fares when a vaild rail card numbr is entered and this then printed on teh ticket. Clearly they do not see this upgrade as making financial sense so they allow anyone to buy a discounted ticked online or at a machine.

As I have already said it is a link in the chain, not the complete chain. Nobody is stating it is a "big issue" for the TOCs, only that certain ticket offices do refuse to issue discounted tickets when they suspect fraudulent travel maybe occurring.

Furthermore, the fact that there are loopholes does not mean the TOCs do not care about fare evasion using discounted tickets at all, just that the financial cost of implementing a solution that prevents the situation is in their eyes too expensive for the potential gains received when the fare evasion is prevented. This fact however does not mean that TOCs should then forgot completely about fraud prevention, if there is a cheap and easy solution that can help to fight a proportion of evasion then of course the TOCs will utilise it.

They have taken a decision (presumably based on their business model) that means that they are prepared to accept that their anti-fraud policy will not be as robust as those TOC's who do onboard checks. They must think that the cost benifit analysis of having onboard inspection does not stack up, which they are entitled to do.

This view is frankly ridiculous. You cannot say that because a TOC has chosen not to implement onboard checks, they open themselves up to this kind of fraud and therefore all fraud prevention should be abandoned.