Buying a Y/P ticket for someone else

[jon0844]

Then surely we should limit the ammount these people have to complain about.

I get the point, but this morning; One person arrives at Hatfield from London and tries to use his Oyster card to get out. Obviously doesn't work, and he gets told he must pay a penalty fare.

He starts moaning and saying he wasn't told he couldn't use his Oyster card and that he'd got through the barrier at King's Cross and started to ask, then beg, to be let off. He then said he had no money, but eventually 'found' £5 - but even I saw from a distance his wallet filled with cards!

He wasn't let off, but he could just as easily moan about how the railway has penalised him for not allowing him to use his Oyster, and that the railway doesn't make it clear and that .. you get the idea.

How far do we go to stop bad press before everyone starts to try it on?

We've accepted that anyone buying a young person railcard must accept they need to have this with any discounted ticket; that was made clear when they bought it. Do we REALLY need to start treating them with kid gloves? Chances are the ones that are saying they didn't know don't have a YPRC in the first place.

Perhaps RPIs should keep a copy of the railcard T&Cs on a simple hand-out sheet to give to people that are caught, so they know for future? A simple photocopied page that you give to say 'you did obviously read these?' in a sarcastic tone? Then see the person try and moan then.

I work gateline, these excuses are usually (and dont accuse me of being age-ist) used by senior railcard holders, in fact id go as far to say that 95% of problems i get with railcards are senior.
Dont think ive ever (or at least its extremely rare) had a y/p railcard holder gripe about having to show their railcard at the gateline. most of them accept if they want the discount they have to show it.

I probably see more YPRC related problems on account of Hatfield being a university town - so I accept the problem is likely to be worse at certain locations.

I also don't see it as a problem to say that old people can cause problems. The scum of today will get old one day, so will they suddenly become good, honest, people? Old people can be nasty, rude and try it on - especially when they have 'being old' as a get-out-of-jail card. They can still commit crime.. yet, we're always given the picture of an ageing war-veteran that has paid his taxes and now deserves something back!

One thing you learn over time is that people of all ages, sex, race and income will try it on given half a chance.

 

[Bill Badger]

A related query.

Say I have a Gold Card between Portsmouth and Guildford and wish to travel onto London for an evening out. My friend joins me on the train I am travelling on at Guildford, having purchased tickets for us both to London using the Gold Card discount (as we are travelling together) at Guildford station.

Is this allowed?

At no point are either of us travelling without a valid ticket although my friend would be unable to show the Gold Card he will be travelling on at the ticket barrier in Guildford if asked to do so.

Cheers

 

[yorkie]

I don't see any reason for that being invalid at all.

 

[jon0844]

Actually, I would have thought that might present a problem - not by using the gate, but if being asked to show the person they are travelling with to qualify for the discount.

By the way, tonight when I came home tonight (Hatfield) there were two people stopped because they tried to use YP tickets in the gates (I was behind them, so clearly saw the ticket) - and when they went to the wide gate (manned) both were ushered through. So much for the idea that they must show their railcard!!!

 

[yorkie]

Actually, I would have thought that might present a problem - not by using the gate, but if being asked to show the person they are travelling with to qualify for the discount.

But that person is on the train so they are valid. It's only an issue at the barriers. What I am unsure of, is whether or not the barrier staff have the right to refuse entry on the basis that they cannot see the person he is travelling with as they are on the train. I think it is less of an issue getting off, but getting on they could attempt to deny access to the train. This is one reason why I dislike barriers, as they punish legitimate passengers. Determined dodgers get through anyway by doubling up behind a ticket holder.

 

[WillPS]

I'm totally fed up with the inconsistencies of this, all it serves is to hinder me from purchasing tickets from a human being. When I buy tickets from a ticket office for me (16-25 Railcard) and my brother (child) without my brother being present, there is no problem. Replace my brother with my girlfriend (16-25 Railcard), and that's not allowed, and I'm treated as if I'm trying to pull a fast one. It's lunacy!

On a similar note, back in March me and some friends travelled to Alton Towers from Sheffield - clearly the cheapest ticket would be the Derbyshire Wayfarer, but that's not valid in peak time, so I tried to buy singles to Chesterfield to cover the 'peak' section of the journey - even with those peak tickets purchased, the ticket office would not sell me the wayfarers - for god's sake!! If I went to the other side of that exact same ticket office the day before they would have no problem issuing that ticket with this days date - why then am I not allowed to purchase one before the valid time but ONLY on the valid date. It's flipping lunacy.

 

[yorkie]

even with those peak tickets purchased, the ticket office would not sell me the wayfarers - for god's sake!! If I went to the other side of that exact same ticket office the day before they would have no problem issuing that ticket with this days date - why then am I not allowed to purchase one before the valid time but ONLY on the valid date. It's flipping lunacy.

They have to sell it. They are in breach of impartial retailing by refusing to sell a combination if you ask for it.

Anyway you can simply walk to the adjacent bus station (other end of it though so it'll take 3 or 4 mins to walk!) and buy from there. Funnily enough you don't get rude, obstructive people there, and they don't turn away business! Quite the opposite in fact. York station also issue Wayfarers on the day of travel without asking any questions and without any fuss, the guy had never issued one before but was happy to do so, as they are professional and impartial unlike some other ticket offices.

Ticket office staff who are obstructive are putting their jobs at risk in this day and age of ticket websites machines, pure and simple. No other industry would allow it!

But I have some scratch cards now (they never expire) from the bus station to save me queuing.

 

[glynn80]

They have to sell it. They are in breach of impartial retailing by refusing to sell a combination if you ask for it.

Nearly, they should sell said ticket unless they suspect the ticket may be used fraudulently. If they do suspect fraud a booking office clerk is more than capable of refusing to issue any ticket he/she so wishes.


P.S. I am not suggesting the situation the OP has described is or could even be considered fraud, all I am saying is we have only heard one side of the story and cannot make a full judgment on the ticket office staff at Sheffield based on the encounter.

 

[yorkie]

That's ridiculous as they can use that as a shield to be obstructive by playing the "I suspect fraud" card constantly. If I ask for a Wayfarer at Sheffield, they should sell it to me, at any time, simple.

If they refuse then would I go to the bus station and make a point of waving the ticket past their window when I return!

National Rail state that off peak tickets can be purchased "at any time" they do NOT say that off peak tickets can only be bought off peak. They should be compelled to honour that commitment.

It's none of the ticket offices' business if the customer holds any other tickets, but the OP actually bought a Anytime to Chesterfield anyway so the "fraud" excuse cannot possibly be used by the useless staff.

The solution to the problems highlighted in this topic is simple: buy online, from machines, or from bus stations (as appropriate/applicable), and if that means some jobsworths are out of a job as a result, then so be it. I will use my local station when convenient though as they are helpful and never obstructive, make no attempt to drive customers away so their future is assured. On the other hand those who drive customers away should reap what they sew.

 

[glynn80]

That's ridiculous as they can use that as a shield to be obstructive by playing the "I suspect fraud" card constantly. If I ask for a Wayfarer at Sheffield, they should sell it to me, at any time, simple.

No it's sensible policy designed to allow ticket office staff to be able to refuse blatant fraud without said passengers being able to waive impartiality regulation to force through ticket purchased.

I have not said Sheffield claimed they suspected fraud and if they were consistently denying passengers the right to purchase tickets with no valid reason, they would be in breach of impartiality rules that are already in place (if the OP believes this to be the case he can complain directly to the DfT or via Passenger Focus both of whom's remit covers the situation at hand).

It's none of the ticket offices' business if the customer holds any other tickets, but the OP actually bought a Anytime to Chesterfield anyway so the "fraud" excuse cannot possibly be used by the useless staff.

It is if they suspect fraud, especially if they could be accused of being complicit to the fraud taking place.

 

[yorkie]

I'd like to read where this is documented, as I was under the impression you could buy a ticket from anywhere, to anywhere, at any station.

Rovers/Rangers should be made available online immediately so that jobsworths can be by-passed in the same way that you can by-pass them for combinations of 'normal' tickets.

Some staff (particularly on EMT) seem to see it as some personal insult to them if you simply ask for a combination of tickets, despite the fact that we are perfectly entitled to ask for those combinations. Nottingham and Sheffield are noted as particularly bad. Bizarrely though St Pancras is the opposite and is well known for being helpful. I wonder if there is some manager in charge of the northerly stations who trains the staff in a certain way?

 

[glynn80]

I'd like to read where this is documented, as I was under the impression you could buy a ticket from anywhere, to anywhere, at any station.

It is documented within Section 7 of the Fraud Act 2006, "Making or supplying articles for use in frauds".

If a system were to be introduced, I think it would be similar to the database of Season Ticket holders.

Customers holding Monthly Season Tickets or longer are on purchase, entered into a database of Season Ticket holders. This allows renewals to be done much more quickly and ensures that discounts for failure to meet service level targets are automatically applied.

This database can be accessed from both Ticket Office TISs and SSTVMs.

If a database of Railcard holders was produced, each Railcard would have a unique number which the customer would have to enter on purchase of a Railcard discounted ticket. When a Railcard holder wished someone other than him/herself to purchase a ticket for them, all they would have to do would be to give the purchaser their unique Railcard number. The unique Railcard number could even be printed onto the ticket in the same fashion as Photocard numbers.

This system would not require any hardware alterations to SSTVMs seeing as they already have the functionality to access the Season Ticket database, the only alterations would be software based.

Further to my post earlier in the topic, I have actually found some documents that detail plans by ATOC to carry out something similar to what I have described above. The scheme however seemed to fall on its knees rather, with the ITSO smartcard scheme the DfT were launching at the time taking over as the preferred method to combat the problem.

Magnetic stripe on Railcards

This was briefly discussed with a view to avoiding fraud through validation that a Railcard is actually held when buying rail tickets from self-service TIS. This might come from a magnetic stripe or a chip on the Railcard. Retail Group asked for an update on this project.

Activity to prevent fraud in retailing activity

The group felt that the many new ticketing initiatives (e-ticketing, ticketless travel etc) could pose significant fraud risks and it would like to ensure that an ATOC/RSP group is actively managing this area to avoid financial losses for TOCs.

[Name Removed: ATOC Representative] to update Retail Group on use of the magnetic stripe on Railcards, and ways of avoiding fraud.

[Name Removed: ATOC Representative] said that trials have taken place with this, but the preference is for a barcode to be used on Railcards. The magnetic stripe is in the wrong position on the Railcard to be read by ticket vending machines. A further problem is that magnetic stripes can wear out, which could result in Railcards having to be reissued to holders. [Name Removed: ATOC Representative] said that RSP are investigating options. Retail Group agreed that barcodes were the likely best way forward, and not the magnetic stripe.

[Name Removed: Silverlink Representative] asked how this work linked in with future gating strategy, and requested that this was given full consideration, as ticket gates have about a ten-year lifespan. [Name Removed: ATOC Representative] agreed to raise this with RSP Head of Systems Innovation. [Name Removed: ATW Representative] mentioned problems with fading of Season Tickets and Railcards if print-on barcodes are used. [Name Removed: ATOC Representative] said that Railcards issued for online sales are plastic and the future aim is to transfer as many Railcard sales as possible to online.

[Name Removed: FGW Representative] raised the point that some TIS suppliers are unhappy about the prospect of adding another device, such as Railcard barcode readers, to self-service ticketing machines, as they were not designed to accommodate so many additional devices and would confuse customers.

 

[jon0844]

Smartcards are definitely the way forward. I'd hope that if photos are then printed/etched on the card that they will be big enough to be useful, not small things tucked away in a corner - allowing people to pass themselves off as someone else.

They don't even check passports that thoroughly at airports, so I wouldn't expect RPIs to do it if there's only a small thumbnail image on it.