Buying More Than One Ticket Per Person

[wimbledonpete]

Hi

I think this has come up before but I can't make the search bring anything up. Someone's just tweeted that they're on a busy train and a group of four people have claimed to have bought extra tickets so they can put their feet up.

I'm pretty sure that I've seen that they can be asked to move their feet no matter how many tickets they hold but can anyone point me in the right direction please?

I don't know the full ins and outs of this particular case.

Thanks!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A ticket does not guarantee a seat, only a reservation can do that, however I was under the impression Byelaw 5 covered feet on seats, Byelaw 6(2) might as well.

 

[najaB]

Hi

I think this has come up before but I can't make the search bring anything up. Someone's just tweeted that they're on a busy train and a group of four people have claimed to have bought extra tickets so they can put their feet up.

Buying a ticket gets you transportation from point A to point B, nothing more than that. If you want more room then either buy a first-class ticket, or hire a car.

 

[Tetchytyke]

A ticket does not guarantee a seat, only a reservation can do that

And buying/obtaining more than one reservation doesn't give you an extra seat either.

Feet on seats is one area where I wish the TOCs were more strict in enforcing the Byelaws.

 

[Welshman]

Feet on seats is one area where I wish the TOCs were more strict in enforcing the Byelaws.

I agree.
I once boarded a fairly-full train and sat opposite someone in a group of four seats round a table.
He had his feet on the seat as I went to sit down, so I made a deliberate play of rubbing and wiping the seat before I sat, and glared at him for the next few miles.
He obviously felt guilty for he opened-up a conversation, telling me how he was returning to his unit, and expected to be sent out to Afghanistan in the near future!

 

[Flamingo]

Hi

I think this has come up before but I can't make the search bring anything up. Someone's just tweeted that they're on a busy train and a group of four people have claimed to have bought extra tickets so they can put their feet up.

I'm pretty sure that I've seen that they can be asked to move their feet no matter how many tickets they hold but can anyone point me in the right direction please?

I don't know the full ins and outs of this particular case.

Thanks!

A ticket does not guarantee a seat, and if a seat is reserved, after the stop has been passed, if there is no bum on the seat the seat is available. I've argued this with people before when they had their bags on their "friends" seat.

 

[bb21]

The guard on one of my Swansea trains on Friday actually removed reservation labels after leaving Paddington on unoccupied seats and made announcements as such. I was hoping it would be you but was a tad disappointed as he walked past.

 

[Chapeltom]

I'd be intrigued to know how a conversation between Joe Bloggs who decides to either buy an extra ticket/reserve a seat for the purposes of putting their feet up and someone wanting to sit down.

Reservations would deter most people from challenging the selfish passenger. Imagine saying something like

"Do you mind moving your feet off the seats, someone has reserved that seat." I'd wonder how the selfish passenger would react!

I'd imagine if the seat was unreserved and the selfish passenger buys another seat, the conversation could go something like this.

"Excuse me, do you mind me sitting there?" whilst pointing to the seat.
"I've bought two tickets, so that seat is mine."
"A second ticket doesn't entitle you to an extra seat."
"Yes it does."

Then you could start quoting the bye-laws or fetch an RPI/ or more likely guard if in the near vicinity!

Unfortunately in the real world, the ordinary passenger pointing out the feet on seats is likely to get a mouthful of abuse. What a shame :/

 

[Swirlz]

A ticket does not guarantee a seat, only a reservation can do that, however I was under the impression Byelaw 5 covered feet on seats, Byelaw 6(2) might as well.

Merseyrail enforce "feet on seets" with 6(8).

 

[supervalkoinen]

Merseyrail enforce "feet on seets" with 6(8).

One very high-profile enforcement a few years ago (against a solicitor IIRC) with consequent press coverage helped improve the situation enormously.

Probably time for another....

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Merseyrail enforce "feet on seets" with 6(8).

Fair enough, I can see how that would work.

 

[Deerfold]

I've seen people trying to get a bit of extra room on EC - what appears to happen is they reserve a seat next to the Window but they then sit in the unreserved seat next to it. People getting on the train at London see the reservation so don't sit there.

It works less well coming South.

It can be useful to know if you board late and have no reservation. You tend to get glared at for the rest of the journey though

(I usually ask if anyone is sitting there - when they say it's reserved I point out the train is about to leave and I'll take my chance on the reservee turning up - they rarely do).

 

[Flamingo]

Try the dirty looks that one gets walking along taking the reservations out of the empty seats from the same people sitting beside them - especially when accompanied by an instruction to move the bag to a luggage rack...

 

[trainophile]

I went to sit on an empty seat on a fairly full Merseyrail train recently, to be told by the woman sitting next to it "sorry, that seat's reserved". I was so stunned I just said "reserved, really?" and moved on. Wish I'd challenged her but I was too timid.

(For those who don't know, Merseyrail does not operate any form of seat reservation on any of its services.)

 

[Deerfold]

I went to sit on an empty seat on a fairly full Merseyrail train recently, to be told by the woman sitting next to it "sorry, that seat's reserved". I was so stunned I just said "reserved, really?" and moved on. Wish I'd challenged her but I was too timid.

(For those who don't know, Merseyrail does not operate any form of seat reservation on any of its services.)

Got an ATW train in July. Asked a lady to move so I could get to it. She said "that seat's reserved". I replied "I know. For me."

 

[iainbhx]

I have more than once asked "Has that bag got a ticket?". Instant snarl but usually compliance in the end.

 

[dvboy]

The stories on this forum of people taking up two seats or a seat for their luggage causing problems and the ways people deal with them amaze me. I've never had any problems asking someone politely if they'd mind moving their bag for me to sit, or if the seat next to them is free, or if they'd move out of my reserved seat.

Just the other day someone was in my reserved seat and they apologised and said they'd reserved another seat and started to pack up their stuff, but I said don't worry, I'll sit in your seat, and we were both happy.

 

[RailAleFan]

A ticket does not guarantee a seat, and if a seat is reserved, after the stop has been passed, if there is no bum on the seat the seat is available.

That's interesting - so if one doesn't occupy their reserved seat at the point of departure, they forfeit any right to use that seat for the remainder of the journey?

A common scenario that I have witnessed (and been on the receiving end of) is where somebody with a reservation boards an empty train at departure and sits where they want, not taking any notice of reservations. The train fills up, they get bumped by a genuine reservation somewhere down the line and then go and "claim" their actual reserved seat, in which somebody has now made themselves comfortable because reserveee should have been sat there from the start.

 

[Flamingo]

That's interesting - so if one doesn't occupy their reserved seat at the point of departure, they forfeit any right to use that seat for the remainder of the journey?

A common scenario that I have witnessed (and been on the receiving end of) is where somebody with a reservation boards an empty train at departure and sits where they want, not taking any notice of reservations. The train fills up, they get bumped by a genuine reservation somewhere down the line and then go and "claim" their actual reserved seat, in which somebody has now made themselves comfortable because reserveee should have been sat there from the start.

I've had this scenario on occasions, one memorable one where the three claiming their seats did so an hour after departure when I had kicked them out of First Class as they refused to pay the Weekend Supplement (as Diet Coke was not in the complementary beverages, they said they should be entitled to a free First Class upgrade).

It was easily solved, I just gave the people occupying the reserved seats a free First Class upgrade

 

[RailAleFan]

What if a person has a reserved seat, no baggage, and it's the middle of summer so no jacket or coat to leave behind either, and they nip to the loo - that shouldn't void their reservation though, should it?

 

[Flamingo]

What if a person has a reserved seat, no baggage, and it's the middle of summer so no jacket or coat to leave behind either, and they nip to the loo - that shouldn't void their reservation though, should it?

That's no different to anybody else nipping out to the loo...

 

[RailAleFan]

That's no different to anybody else nipping out to the loo...

Accept that - perfectly valid point - so just to confirm, if a reserved seat is not occupied by the "reservee" from the point of departure, they forfeit any right to that seat later on in the journey?

 

[Flamingo]

If they have not turned up, I'll remove the reservation once the station has been passed. If somebody then approached me later in the journey, I would find them another seat in the same class if possible. I've never had a problem with this, and I've been doing it for many years now.

 

[RailAleFan]

If they have not turned up, I'll remove the reservation once the station has been passed. If somebody then approached me later in the journey, I would find them another seat in the same class if possible. I've never had a problem with this, and I've been doing it for many years now.

You might be able to remove paper reservations but I don't think Cross Country [Voyager] guards can edit reservations in real time and this happens all the time, so that's why I'm asking if the right to a reserved seat is forfeited beyond the departure station.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm afraid I've no idea what other TOC's do, and I know that Mojo has been told by Customer Services that a reservation is good for the whole journey whenever the passenger turns up. All I'm saying is what I do in the absence of any guidance to the contrary, and it's never been a problem yet.

 

[IanD]

Accept that - perfectly valid point - so just to confirm, if a reserved seat is not occupied by the "reservee" from the point of departure, they forfeit any right to that seat later on in the journey?

Remember, this is Flamingo's rule and not necessarily the rule followed by all other train managers.

As I've said everytime this topic has come up in the last few years - my view is that a seat is reserved from Station A to Station B not from Station A to Some arbitrary point just outside station A.

Others obviously disagree but until someone can come up with a definitive published rule on this, there will always be disagreements.

 

[Flamingo]

Remember, this is Flamingo's rule and not necessarily the rule followed by all other train managers.

My train, my rules! (As I've heard it abbreviated, FOITTM!)

 

[IanD]

My train, my rules! (As I've heard it abbreviated, FOITTM!)

Goes without saying.

 

[bb21]

Remember, this is Flamingo's rule and not necessarily the rule followed by all other train managers.

As I've said everytime this topic has come up in the last few years - my view is that a seat is reserved from Station A to Station B not from Station A to Some arbitrary point just outside station A.

Others obviously disagree but until someone can come up with a definitive published rule on this, there will always be disagreements.

It is not even just on this forum that disagreements arise. Between different TOC's customer service departments they are unable to give a consistent answer.

 

[furlong]

Remember, this is Flamingo's rule and not necessarily the rule followed by all other train managers.

Others obviously disagree but until someone can come up with a definitive published rule on this, there will always be disagreements.

I hadn't even noticed that there wasn't a published rule any more! It's my firm recollection that the network-wide conditions attached to seat reservations used to state that you lost your entitlement to the reservation if you didn't claim it within ten minutes of departure.