Buying NR tickets from London Underground

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Brucey

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I was playing around with a LU machine in Zone 1 yesterday, just to see what was available on there.

I noticed it was offering an "Off Peak Single" to Bletchley for £17.something.

There doesn't appear to be any ticket for that price. Does anyone know what ticket type it would have sold me?

Also, I assume the machine would print this on the pink LU stock. Is this correct?

And a final question: can LU machines sell tickets to any NR destination? The range of tickets looked very limited and railcard discounts minimal.
 
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sonic2009

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I was playing around with a LU machine in Zone 1 yesterday, just to see what was available on there.

I noticed it was offering an "Off Peak Single" to Bletchley for £17.something.

There doesn't appear to be any ticket for that price. Does anyone know what ticket type it would have sold me?

Also, I assume the machine would print this on the pink LU stock. Is this correct?

And a final question: can LU machines sell tickets to any NR destination? The range of tickets looked very limited and railcard discounts minimal.
It looks like the ticket that it would have sold you may have been a :

OFF-PEAK DAY S ZONE U1* LONDN - BLETCHLEY which is priced at £16.00.

Yes the ticket would be printed on LU ticketing stock, I don't believe it can sell tickets to any UK destination but most destinations are within the former NSE area

* I'm happy to be corrected as my knowledge of LU ticket machines is not the best.
 

Brucey

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That is also the nearest fare I could find. However the price was definitely over £17, probably £17.40.
 

Mojo

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The machines sell tickets to a number of destinations in the former NSE area, plus a few locations outside, such as Peterborough.

The Poms (LUL TVMs) have a 'Best Value' function which picks the best value ticket according to the time of day for which the ticket is attempting to be purchased.
 

ashworth

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A couple of months ago I posted the following in another thread concerning the poor location and lack of information about the National Rail ticket office at Stratford London. To my misfortune I found out that London Underground sell National Rail Tickets the hard way:

Is it just me that was not really thinking straight when visiting Stratford station last week, or is the National Rail Ticket Office badly located and difficult to find for those not familiar with the station?

I was spending a week staying in North London, near Hampstead Heath Overground Station and had planned a couple of days out in Essex. The cheapest way to do this seemd to be to use my Oyster Card to get to Stratford and then purchase a Super Off Peak Day Return from there. It was perhaps my own fault for not realising my error but it didn't turn out as originally expected.

I arrived at Stratford on the Overground and made my way to the barriers to touch out on the Oyster card reader. I then looked for the ticket office where I was intending getting a Super Off Peak Day Return to Southend. The intention was to travel out to Southend Victoria and then back from Southend Central stopping off at Leigh on Sea. The only ticket office I could see was a large one by the main entrance which appeared to be operated by London Transport. I looked all around the inside of the station and couldn't find another and so decided that the station must be operated by London Transport and so that was the only place to get a ticket.

I asked for a Super Off Peak Return to Southend Stations that would allow me to use both routes and the very unhelpful man said it didn't exist and I had to decide whether I wanted to go to Victoria or Central as he couldn't sell me a ticket valid to both. I argued with him and told him the I'd looked it up with National Rail and that it cost £11.70. He never told me that they didn't sell National Rail Priced Tickets and that there was actually a National Rail Ticket Office hidden round a corner outside the station entrance. Eventually I foolishly gave up arguing and settled for a Day Return to Southend Central via Barking which cost me £15.50.

I was still very puzzled by this and on the return journey went back to the ticket office and spoke to a much more friendly man enquiring whether I had been overcharged. He explained that this was London Transport Ticket Office and the £15.50 fare I had been charged was correct and that if I wanted a cheaper more flexible ticket I should have gone to the National Rail Ticket Office outside.

I went on a search for the National Rail Ticket Office and couldn't believe how, at such a major interchange station, it was a scruffy two windowed office, hidden away round a corner in an alcove to the right of the station main entrance. Anyone arriving as I did by overground, tube, DLR would not pass by it and even if entering by the main entrance it is not very adequately signed and most members of the public would not see it and go straight to the very prominent London Transport Ticket Office in the main station entrance.

I learnt my lesson the hard way by being overcharged and 3 days later when travelling to Burnham on Crouch I did go to the correct Ticket Office despite its cold draughty, hidden away location to buy my £12.30 Super Off Peak Day Return.

Sorry for my long post but I just wonder how many other people, perhaps less used to travelling than me, make this mistake, and go straight to the very prominent London Transport Office and are sold an overpriced ticket without anyone advising them that it would be cheaper from National Rail or even that a National rail Ticket office exists if you really search for it.
 

34D

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So are we concluding that LU ticket offices/machines will sell through tickets to selected NR destinations, but that such tickets are more expensive (the convenience factor I guess).

What about stations where LU fulfill the role of national rail ticket office (such as West Ham)?
 

Brucey

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What about stations where LU fulfill the role of national rail ticket office (such as West Ham)?
I visited the ticket office at Harrow & Wealdstone on Friday to get a new Oyster card wallet. The TVMs are Scheidt & Bachmann, so I can assume that they sell the full range of tickets. As for the ticket office, it looked like a FasTIS machine with separate credit card machine. This station has no exemption from impartial selling.

I'm still interested in finding out how LU calculate the fares on their own style of TVMs and what ticket types they are actually selling. I also could not work out a way of applying a railcard discount.
 

radamfi

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Harrow & Wealdstone and West Ham are National Rail stations so should sell the normal range of tickets.

I would suggest that LU ticket offices at stations that are not National Rail stations probably only sell Any Permitted tickets. For example a long time ago I asked for a single to Three Bridges and only the very expensive ticket including Gatwick Express was offered.
 

Indigo2

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Here are all possible single fares from London Underground stations to Bletchley. All fares set by London Midland; you can also see them by putting in any Zone 1 station as the origin and Bletchley as the destination on brfares.com.

Looks like the machine may be automatically selling a fare with validity through a larger number of zones than is necessarily needed.

Code:
From: ZONE U1256 LONDN
SDS  ANYTIME DAY S			VIA LONDON	LONDON MIDLAND	£23.20
CDS  OFF-PEAK DAY S	DM		VIA LONDON	LONDON MIDLAND	£17.80

From: ZONE U1245 LONDN
SDS  ANYTIME DAY S			VIA LONDON	LONDON MIDLAND	£22.80
CDS  OFF-PEAK DAY S	DM		VIA LONDON	LONDON MIDLAND	£17.40

From: ZONE U1234*LONDN
SDS  ANYTIME DAY S			VIA LONDON	LONDON MIDLAND	£22.00
CDS  OFF-PEAK DAY S	DM		VIA LONDON	LONDON MIDLAND	£16.60

From: ZONE U123* LONDN
SDS  ANYTIME DAY S			VIA LONDON	LONDON MIDLAND	£21.50
CDS  OFF-PEAK DAY S	DM		VIA LONDON	LONDON MIDLAND	£16.10

From: ZONE U12* LONDN
SDS  ANYTIME DAY S			VIA LONDON	LONDON MIDLAND	£21.40
CDS  OFF-PEAK DAY S	DM		VIA LONDON	LONDON MIDLAND	£16.00

From: ZONE U1* LONDN
SDS  ANYTIME DAY S			VIA LONDON	LONDON MIDLAND	£21.40
CDS  OFF-PEAK DAY S	DM		VIA LONDON	LONDON MIDLAND	£16.00
 

Brucey

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£17.80, that was it. The machine was at Liverpool Street so didn't really need to offer all those zones.
 

radamfi

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You really don't want to be buying tickets to National Rail stations that include Underground travel as you might pay way more than the single from the London Terminal plus the Oyster single. For example, an Off-Peak single from London Terminals to Bletchley is £13.00, so you are effectively paying £4.80 to get to Euston. £4.80 is the peak Oyster single to Euston from Zone 6. Off-peak from Zone 6 is £2.90. From Zone 1 (including Liverpool Street) it is £2 any time.
 

Mojo

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I visited the ticket office at Harrow & Wealdstone on Friday to get a new Oyster card wallet. The TVMs are Scheidt & Bachmann, so I can assume that they sell the full range of tickets. As for the ticket office, it looked like a FasTIS machine with separate credit card machine. This station has no exemption from impartial selling.
A different arrangement applies at Queens Park - Harrow/Wealdstone (except Willesden Jct), Gunnersbury and Kew Gardens as the ticket offices are operated by LUL on behalf of LOROL. Therefore they use standard National Rail ticket office equipment and machines. Tickets from the ticket offices are issued on RSP 9599/TFL stock, as used by London Overground booking offices and TVMs.

The following stations use standard LUL ticket office machines but provide ticket issuing facilities on behalf of the Tocs. Therefore a greater range of tickets is available from these stations, including Railcard discounted tickets from the Poms. Tickets are issued on standard or triangled (depending on the area) LUL stock.
  • Amersham
  • Barbican
  • Blackhorse Road
  • Canada Water
  • Canning Town
  • Chalfont & Latimer
  • Chorleywood
  • Farringdon
  • Finsbury Park
  • Greenford
  • Harrow-on-the-Hill
  • Highbury & Islington
  • Kentish Town
  • Moorgate
  • Old Street
  • Rickmansworth
  • Seven Sisters
  • South Ruislip
  • Southwark
  • Stratford
  • Tottenham Hale
  • West Brompton
  • West Ham
  • Whitechapel
 

transportphoto

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The following stations use standard LUL ticket office machines but provide ticket issuing facilities on behalf of the Tocs. Therefore a greater range of tickets is available from these stations, including Railcard discounted tickets from the Poms. Tickets are issued on standard or triangled (depending on the area) LUL stock. [LIST REMOVED - TP]
But not a full range I am aware, so you couldn't ask them for a Glasgow to Edinburgh ticket? Correct? What range of tickets do they sell?

TP
 

Mutant Lemming

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A different arrangement applies at Queens Park - Harrow/Wealdstone (except Willesden Jct), Gunnersbury and Kew Gardens as the ticket offices are operated by LUL on behalf of LOROL. [/LIST]
I was under the impression that the stations from Queens Park to Harrow and Wealdstone (apart from Willesden Junction) were actually transferred from Overground to LU and are in fact operated by LU as LU stations. The staff were transferred over (TUPE'd across) and the stations have LU roundels whereas Willesden J has Overground ones and Overground staff.

As for the H & W ticket office, I recall they wouldn't sell me a London Midland 'Great Escape' ticket.
 

LondonJohn

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A couple of months ago I posted the following in another thread concerning the poor location and lack of information about the National Rail ticket office at Stratford London. To my misfortune I found out that London Underground sell National Rail Tickets the hard way:

Is it just me that was not really thinking straight when visiting Stratford station last week, or is the National Rail Ticket Office badly located and difficult to find for those not familiar with the station?

I was spending a week staying in North London, near Hampstead Heath Overground Station and had planned a couple of days out in Essex. The cheapest way to do this seemd to be to use my Oyster Card to get to Stratford and then purchase a Super Off Peak Day Return from there. It was perhaps my own fault for not realising my error but it didn't turn out as originally expected.

I arrived at Stratford on the Overground and made my way to the barriers to touch out on the Oyster card reader. I then looked for the ticket office where I was intending getting a Super Off Peak Day Return to Southend. The intention was to travel out to Southend Victoria and then back from Southend Central stopping off at Leigh on Sea. The only ticket office I could see was a large one by the main entrance which appeared to be operated by London Transport. I looked all around the inside of the station and couldn't find another and so decided that the station must be operated by London Transport and so that was the only place to get a ticket.

I asked for a Super Off Peak Return to Southend Stations that would allow me to use both routes and the very unhelpful man said it didn't exist and I had to decide whether I wanted to go to Victoria or Central as he couldn't sell me a ticket valid to both. I argued with him and told him the I'd looked it up with National Rail and that it cost £11.70. He never told me that they didn't sell National Rail Priced Tickets and that there was actually a National Rail Ticket Office hidden round a corner outside the station entrance. Eventually I foolishly gave up arguing and settled for a Day Return to Southend Central via Barking which cost me £15.50.

I was still very puzzled by this and on the return journey went back to the ticket office and spoke to a much more friendly man enquiring whether I had been overcharged. He explained that this was London Transport Ticket Office and the £15.50 fare I had been charged was correct and that if I wanted a cheaper more flexible ticket I should have gone to the National Rail Ticket Office outside.

I went on a search for the National Rail Ticket Office and couldn't believe how, at such a major interchange station, it was a scruffy two windowed office, hidden away round a corner in an alcove to the right of the station main entrance. Anyone arriving as I did by overground, tube, DLR would not pass by it and even if entering by the main entrance it is not very adequately signed and most members of the public would not see it and go straight to the very prominent London Transport Ticket Office in the main station entrance.

I learnt my lesson the hard way by being overcharged and 3 days later when travelling to Burnham on Crouch I did go to the correct Ticket Office despite its cold draughty, hidden away location to buy my £12.30 Super Off Peak Day Return.

Sorry for my long post but I just wonder how many other people, perhaps less used to travelling than me, make this mistake, and go straight to the very prominent London Transport Office and are sold an overpriced ticket without anyone advising them that it would be cheaper from National Rail or even that a National rail Ticket office exists if you really search for it.

I am sorry but had you listened to the guy who directed you to the National Rail ticket office you would have paid the lower fare. There are staff all around the station and several Greater Anglia TVMs at the station (one at the entrance to the Jubilee line platforms, and two by the main LU barriers that I can think of.

Whenever I use the Stratford LUL ticket office the staff always direct people that want to buy NR tickets to the facility outside.
 

Mojo

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I was under the impression that the stations from Queens Park to Harrow and Wealdstone (apart from Willesden Junction) were actually transferred from Overground to LU and are in fact operated by LU as LU stations. The staff were transferred over (TUPE'd across) and the stations have LU roundels whereas Willesden J has Overground ones and Overground staff.
Yes you are right in that the stations themselves are operated in the normal manner as LU stations, all of them under the Wembley Central group on the Bakerloo line, although the management of the stations transferred directly to LUL from Silverlink from the first day of operations for London Overground back in 2007, and were never staffed by London Overground.

There are a number of special arrangements in place though that differ from the standard agreements in place across the network. For example, LUL staff do not service front-loading Poms, yet National Rail do. A large number of staff on the north end of the Bakerloo are agency staff. There are also a number of special agreements, such as there being no station supervisors at certain stations, for all or part of the day. The whole state of affairs is a bit bizarre: http://www.rmtlondoncalling.org.uk/bakerloobranch

There is a special arrangement in place at these stations as the ticket office hours and facilities are regulated by the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (schedule 17) with responsibility resting with LOROL. Therefore the ticket issuing equipment is of the standard National Rail type rather than LUL.
 

Deerfold

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I am sorry but had you listened to the guy who directed you to the National Rail ticket office you would have paid the lower fare. There are staff all around the station and several Greater Anglia TVMs at the station (one at the entrance to the Jubilee line platforms, and two by the main LU barriers that I can think of.
Er, wasn't he directed there on his second visit after he had bought his ticket and made his return journey?
 

bicbasher

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Stratford Regional has two Greater Anglia managed ticket offices which sell NR tickets. One at the Westfield concourse as you walk in from the shopping centre, it's the tiny one to the left next to a GA TVM. The other is outside the main entrance.

As mentioned, there are various Greater Anglia TVM's in the station, alongside LUL and DLR TVM's.
 

ashworth

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Er, wasn't he directed there on his second visit after he had bought his ticket and made his return journey?
Yes correct!
In the morning when I purchased my ticket I was served by a very unco-operative man who did not tell me that there was a National Rail Ticket office outside the station where I could purchase the ticket I had asked for.

I asked for a Super Off Peak Day Return to Southend stations that I could use to both Southernd Victoria and Central. He just told me that there isn't such a ticket and that I would have to decide which station I wanted ticket to travel to and from in Southend. I told him that it does exist and that I had looked it up on a National Rail website and I even told him the price.
Not once did he tell me that this was a London Transport Ticket office that couldn't issue that ticket. He just kept insisting it didn't exist and that I had to decide between Victoria and Central. As I wanted to break my journey on the return trip at Leigh on Sea I settled for a Day Return to Southend Central which cost me nearly £4 more than I had expected to pay. During my journey I looked up the the fasre on the East Coast website and saw that indeed exist. That is why when I got back to Stratford on the return journey I went back to the same Ticket Office to ask if I had been overcharged. Only then did I see someone more friendly he told me about the two different ticket offices.
 

LondonJohn

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Yes correct!
In the morning when I purchased my ticket I was served by a very unco-operative man who did not tell me that there was a National Rail Ticket office outside the station where I could purchase the ticket I had asked for.

I asked for a Super Off Peak Day Return to Southend stations that I could use to both Southernd Victoria and Central. He just told me that there isn't such a ticket and that I would have to decide which station I wanted ticket to travel to and from in Southend. I told him that it does exist and that I had looked it up on a National Rail website and I even told him the price.
Not once did he tell me that this was a London Transport Ticket office that couldn't issue that ticket. He just kept insisting it didn't exist and that I had to decide between Victoria and Central. As I wanted to break my journey on the return trip at Leigh on Sea I settled for a Day Return to Southend Central which cost me nearly £4 more than I had expected to pay. During my journey I looked up the the fasre on the East Coast website and saw that indeed exist. That is why when I got back to Stratford on the return journey I went back to the same Ticket Office to ask if I had been overcharged. Only then did I see someone more friendly he told me about the two different ticket offices.
Apologies for that, I mis read your post. I use Stratford every day and have checked and there is no signage from inside the station to the Greater Anglia ticket office though there is a massive one on the outside that indeed indicates that you can buy underground, train tickets and travelcards.

I do wonder how you missed the 2 Greater Anglia TVMs immediate opposoite the tube gateline at the main entrance.
 

ashworth

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I do wonder how you missed the 2 Greater Anglia TVMs immediate opposoite the tube gateline at the main entrance.
I fully understand. I don't know what I was thinking about that morning! I can remember seeing the machines right against the London Transport ticket office. I've just always purchased my tickets from a ticket office and have only ever used the machines to collect pre booked tickets.
I just never considered using them as I thought the prominently positioned ticket office inside the station was the main and only ticket office available. I never evn thought about it being a London Transport office rather than National Rail.

I think I've now learnt from my mistake, but I am annoyed that the man on duty that morning couldn't even tell me that I was at the wrong ticket office for the ticket I was asking to buy!
 
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34D

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I think I've now learnt from my mistake, but I am annoyed that the man on duty that morning could even tell me that I was at the wrong ticket office for the ticket I was asking to buy!
Its certainly worth a complaint to TfL.

I'm still surprised/intrigued about these more expensive fares though.
 
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