Buying ticket with Network Card before 10.00

[Essexman]

I'm travelling from Upminster to Oxford Parkway (return) using Network Card. If leaving Upminster before 10.00 but London after 10.00 I usually book from Upminster and use Oyster Card to Marylebone, saving a little.

Today the person in Upminster booking office refused to sell me a ticket with railcard before 10.00 as 'I might use it to travel to London'. Previously I've bought tickets before 10.00 from Upminster ticket office and of course if I buy online I can pick it up anytime. Was she correct to refuse to sell me the ticket before 10.00? She sold me one from Marylebone instead.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

There is no basis whatsover in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement for primary ticket offices to refuse to sell time-restricted tickets before a certain time, or certain types of tickets which aren't useable at that station. Made-up policies like this (whether invented by the clerk or their manager or the TOC's policy makers) simply help accelerate the demise of manned ticket offices. If there are ticket offices out there which are as useless as this, then I will not miss them if they go.

It is the customer's problem if they travel with an invalid ticket - the clerk should of course advise the customer of the restrictions, but they should never refuse to sell a ticket because it might be used otherwise than in accordance with the ticket validity.

Otherwise surely you shouldn't be allowed to buy Advances at the ticket office ahead of travel, as you might otherwise get on the wrong train or TOC!

 

[Essexman]

Thanks.
I shall complain to C2C.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the precise wording of the Network Card T&C? Is it allowed to start a journey short in that way in order to get round the restriction by buying another overlapping ticket in that way? With conventional time restrictions it depends on the precise wording of the restriction.

 

[OwlMan]

There is no basis whatsover in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement for primary ticket offices to refuse to sell time-restricted tickets before a certain time, or certain types of tickets which aren't useable at that station. Made-up policies like this (whether invented by the clerk or their manager or the TOC's policy makers) simply help accelerate the demise of manned ticket offices. If there are ticket offices out there which are as useless as this, then I will not miss them if they go.

It is the customer's problem if they travel with an invalid ticket - the clerk should of course advise the customer of the restrictions, but they should never refuse to sell a ticket because it might be used otherwise than in accordance with the ticket validity.

Otherwise surely you shouldn't be allowed to buy Advances at the ticket office ahead of travel, as you might otherwise get on the wrong train or TOC!

A ticket office is perfectly entitled to refuse to sell a ticket if they think it will be used fraudently.
AIUI the rules for selling ticket varies depending on whether it is in advance (not on day of travel) or not.
A TOC can refuse to sell a ticket for use on the day of purchase if puchased at a time when it is not valid, it is common practice not to sell offpeak tickets until just before they are valid.

 

[nickswift99]

A ticket office is perfectly entitled to refuse to sell a ticket if they think it will be used fraudently.
AIUI the rules for selling ticket varies depending on whether it is in advance (not on day of travel) or not.
A TOC can refuse to sell a ticket for use on the day of purchase if puchased at a time when it is not valid, it is common practice not to sell offpeak tickets until just before they are valid.

In that case there would be no opportunity to purchase and the passenger would be entitled to travel and pay for their fare later according to the NRCoT.
Refusing to sell does nothing to help with revenue collection and provides opportunities for a passenger to legitimately travel without a ticket.

 

[island]

A ticket office is perfectly entitled to refuse to sell a ticket if they think it will be used fraudently.
AIUI the rules for selling ticket varies depending on whether it is in advance (not on day of travel) or not.
A TOC can refuse to sell a ticket for use on the day of purchase if puchased at a time when it is not valid, it is common practice not to sell offpeak tickets until just before they are valid.

I agree with OwlMan. It is the clerk’s discretion whether to sell the ticket (and if he/she does so, whether to write “restrictions advised” on it).

 

[MikeWh]

You could try to buy the Upminster to Oxford ticket at Marylebone having used Oyster to get there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The best way to avoid arguments would be to buy it online and collect at a TVM.

 

[Essexman]

I often do book online but have also booked same ticket before 10.00 at ticket office.

I couldn't have used it fraudulently as gate would not open.

Tweet to C2C got response 'they may have been unable to'. Follow up tweet got no response which is usual with C2C if questions get difficult.

 

[yorksrob]

A ticket office is perfectly entitled to refuse to sell a ticket if they think it will be used fraudently.
AIUI the rules for selling ticket varies depending on whether it is in advance (not on day of travel) or not.
A TOC can refuse to sell a ticket for use on the day of purchase if puchased at a time when it is not valid, it is common practice not to sell offpeak tickets until just before they are valid.

Its this sort of claptrap that gives the railway a bad name.

At my major railway station, I often buy an off-peak-railcard ticket early on before work, so as to avoid the queue afterwards. If I were refused, I would be writing strongly worded complaints.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its this sort of claptrap that gives the railway a bad name.

At my major railway station, I often buy an off-peak-railcard ticket early on before work, so as to avoid the queue afterwards. If I were refused, I would be writing strongly worded complaints.

Certainly LNR/WMT believe this is OK because not only will their TVMs do it, I noticed yesterday that they now have a note on the screen *actively telling* you to do it.

 

[furlong]

I'm not aware of any basis for refusing to sell a valid ticket to a passenger who says they will use it in accordance with its validity. Rather it's the other way around, not selling might have put the company in breach of its franchise agreement, something you can ask the DfT to pursue. The usual approach where there are concerns would be to stamp the ticket 'restrictions advised' or to write the specific restriction on the ticket (I've even seen gateline staff do that!).

 

[joncombe]

I've had similar issues with SWT when trying to buy tickets for the following day during my lunch break (wanting to avoid the long queue for tickets if I go before or after work). The staff usually insist that you can't buy a ticket for the following day until after 3pm. The ticket machines have a button for tickets for tomorrow, but if pressed would then tell you this option was not available until after 3pm. Perhaps they still do. So now I just buy the same tickets online and collect them from the ticket machine. Avoids any arguments, but as another posted stated, this hardly helps the case for keeping ticket offices open if the staff won't sell the tickets the customer wants to buy, but they can buy the very same tickets online.

I've also experienced issues with this 10am rule for Network Cards too, because for a long while the ticket machines wouldn't sell you a ticket until after 10am, which isn't much use if you want to travel on the 10am train (as I did). That means waiting in the queue at the ticket office (if there is one). I have wondered what you are meant to do if there isn't a ticket office in this case. If a penalty fare area you're not meant to board a train without a valid ticket, but the ticket machine won't sell you the (valid) ticket you want to buy.

However the last time I tried to buy a railcard ticket before 10am it had changed and I now got a popup advising of the time restrictions, but you could just press OK and be allowed to go ahead and buy the ticket. So perhaps they have relaxed these restrictions a bit now.

 

[westv]

On the subject of tickets, is there any particular reason ticket offices don't sell monthly season tickets until after midday the day before?

 

[bb21]

On the subject of tickets, is there any particular reason ticket offices don't sell monthly season tickets until after midday the day before?

Yes, because the tickets are not encoded with start dates due to limited capacity on the magstripe, hence used partly as a fraud prevention measure AIUI.

 

[westv]

That does surprise me. You would have thought they'd be the same as weekly tickets. I alsp assumed the only coded dates were the start and the finish.

 

[bb21]

Neither do weekly seasons have start dates encoded on them.

In theory, continuous renewals are allowed to be purchased earlier, on the condition that the existing ticket is surrendered. In reality I very rarely have the old ticket taken off me, but that's by the by.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I have also had plenty of season "renewals" (which do not state a start date) in the past despite not producing the old ticket, and despite the old ticket already having expired some days or weeks earlier. However, I have never been able to obtain these before 3pm the day before.

 

[westv]

My only previous experience has been with annuals ages ago and I was always able to renew several days in advance.

 

[Hadders]

Annuals can be renewed further ahead than weeklies. I think it’s a week ahead but i’m sure someone who works in a ticket office will be along to advise.