Byelaw 9 & 11 Offences

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BrownE

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Say a heavy passenger flow was coming the other way and a large queue formed to come through the single wide gate. A woman (with her husband, son and baby in a pram) were told to wait by Assistant A till all passengers had passed through. So, the woman with her pram goes to pass through a normal gate and someone puts there hand over the sensor.

What Byelaw offences, if any have been committed here?

Thanks.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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Byelaw 11
11. General safety
(1) No person shall move, operate, obstruct, stop or in any other way interfere with any automatic closing door, train, or any other equipment on the railway except:
(i) in an emergency, by means of any equipment on or near which there is a notice indicating that it is intended to be used in an emergency; or
(ii) any equipment intended for the use of passengers in that way in normal operating circumstances.
Byelaw 24.3
24. Enforcement
(3) Identification of authorised persons
An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.
I hate the phrase "moral compass".
 

ralphchadkirk

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On a technicality I think the staff member is correct, there does appear to be a breach of 11(1).

I can't see how 12 is relevant here at all, unless you were either told beforehand or there was a notice telling you not to deliberately block the sensor.

I also can't see why you used 24(3) either, as whilst it's your right to do so, it would only serve to antagonise the situation.

In short, I think you acted with the best intentions however given that the passengers had already been asked to wait until an assistant was available to help then it would have been best not to interfere.

I don't think it's worth complaining to FGW as a mountain has been made out of a molehill here by the gateline assistant and you.
 

BrownE

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Sorry, I'm on my phone and can't seem to copy and paste them. I'all add them in when I'm on a proper computer.

For reference, they are downloadable here.
 
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Urban Gateline

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Byelaw 9(2) Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or an automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the barrier in the correct manner.
Byelaw 9(3)No person shall open a barrier or any other gate on the railway except where there is a notice indicating that it may be used by him or with permission from an authorised person.
Byelaw 11(1) No person shall move, operate, obstruct, stop or in any other way interfere with any automatic closing door, train, or any other equipment on the railway
The above byelaws may be relevant to your situation, however I'm no legal expert so I won't comment further!

As barrier staff myself, I can see your reason for blocking the sensors, it is much safer than having the gate close on the pram or the lady which could cause a compensation claim to be made against the TOC!

However, it should be the staff who do this and take their initiative, if passenger flow is too busy then gates should be altered to optimise passenger flow by putting more into the "exit" direction.

The problem with blocking the sensors is that you are effectively showing other passengers how to avoid the ticket barriers and the staff may (wrongly) assume that you are a fare evader yourself even though you had good intentions!

So basically I'm saying you or the lady should have complained to the barrier staff before taking actions into your own hands as it is the staff who are responsible for the safe operation of the ticket barriers!
 

hairyhandedfool

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.....I can't see how 12 is relevant here at all, unless you were either told beforehand or there was a notice telling you not to deliberately block the sensor.....
Not necessarily for the op, but then the barrier staff may have assumed the op was part of the couples group. Byelaw 12 relates to safety instructions and the requirement to follow them. In this case I think it is to do with putting the pram through the automatic gates when they should go through the manual gate.
 

MichaelAMW

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What did you mean when the gateline chappie said, "I will get this cancelled for the offences?"

Do you mean he confiscated your Oyster card as a kind of on-the-spot fine for a byelaw breach?
 

BrownE

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What did you mean when the gateline chappie said, "I will get this cancelled for the offences?"

Do you mean he confiscated your Oyster card as a kind of on-the-spot fine for a byelaw breach?
Yes, this persons Oyster card was taken and the person took pictures of it before returning it to the user.

Given I saw no MG11 being completed and the Oyster card I'm told isn't registered I see no way he can do that to this person.
 
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MichaelAMW

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That was his exact wording, I interpreted that to mean: "I'll do nothing, I'm just trying to scare you".

Given no MG11 was completed and my Oyster card isn't registered I see no way he can do that. This is one of the areas my complaint will be around; 24 (Enforcement) says no where he can cancel my oyster card.

Unless I am wrong!?
I find that rather outrageous. He has, in effect, simply pinched your PAYG credit. I don't see how that could be permissible in any circumstances - even if you were using the ticket fraudulently the unused value is still yours - and in any case this wasn't a ticket irregularity.
 

BrownE

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No no no! He gave it back; telling me it would be cancelled (immediately) as punishment for the offences.

He took a photo (with his personal phone) of the front and back. No, I'm not sure why he took a photo of the front.
 
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ralphchadkirk

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Good :) however the threat of having us card cancelled is incorrect so it may be worth making a complaint however personally I wouldn't.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk
 

BrownE

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How do you know it was a personal phone? If it is a personal phone then that seems questionable.
Fair question, I didn't explain that.

I must say, I make that assumption given there were many game apps on it and as far as I'm aware, FGW don't issue iPhone 4S'.
 

lyndhurst25

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The Transport for London Byelaws and National Rail Byelaws are slightly different.

Byelaw 11(1) doesn't mention "automatic closing doors" in the TfL version for example. I suppose that mentioning doors separately isn't necessary as they are covered by the catch-all "other equipment on the railway".
 

MikeWh

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I suspect he was just trying to scare you.

If you're worried you could just get your card refunded.
Ditto. Even if he does manage to persuade TfL to hotlist the card, which I seriously doubt, they would still be able to refund the credit and deposit. But to put your mind at rest I'd go to a tube station and ask them to swap the stuff over to a new card. Just say that it's getting a little temperamental at touching in.
 

BrownE

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Ditto. Even if he does manage to persuade TfL to hotlist the card, which I seriously doubt, they would still be able to refund the credit and deposit. But to put your mind at rest I'd go to a tube station and ask them to swap the stuff over to a new card. Just say that it's getting a little temperamental at touching in.
Oh, I'm 99.9% sure that it's a hollow threat! I even said it a little earlier.

The point is you shouldn't tell someone incorrect information; had I been told that he needs to report it, fill an MG11 etc I'd be happy. I'm happy to accept I broke the rules, but telling a semi-knowledgeable passenger (or any passenger regardless of their Rail knowledge) utter lies is wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That has cleared it up, I did break the rules.

The question is, as the Oyster card has my railcard associated with it, did I have to give them my address at the time (I cannot remember) and will FGW decide to prosecute?
 

benk1342

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The question is, as the Oyster card has my railcard associated with it, did I have to give them my address at the time (I cannot remember) and will FGW decide to prosecute?
My understanding is that when a railcard is added to an Oyster card staff just ticks a "railcard" box in the software and enters an expiration date. I don't think any personal details are recorded.

I don't have first-hand experience with it though so I will yield to any corrections.
 

SussexMan

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Fair question, I didn't explain that.

I must say, I make that assumption given there were many game apps on it and as far as I'm aware, FGW don't issue iPhone 4S'.
Then I think that is an issue. What else is this person taking photos of? People's ID or other identifiable items? His employer should be asked what the company policy is (you can be sure it won't be to use personal mobile phones to take 'evidential' pictures) and why this person did and what action will be taken.
 

PFAS

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Hi all

Firstly I will introduce myself. I am John Williams and I am the Chief Editor/ Disk Jockey/Dogsbody etc for PFAS (Penalty Fare Appeal Support).
You can find out more on our website, I wont post the link in case I break a forum rule.

Anyways the OP has been chatting with my colleague Sam via Twitter DM and I will respond based on our collective opinions on the issue.

The Hammersmith and City gateline at London Paddington is an unusual occurrence although not too uncommon, in that a TOC operates the gates on behalf of TfL. I suspect FGW get a kickback but that is irrelevant here.
I also believe that both TfL and NR byelaws apply. The only difference being that TfL have added "attempt to commit" at the end of each para, whereas NR are all listed at the end.

From what you have said from the outset, you have indeed committed a bye-law offence, namely that of NR Bye-law 11 (1) and TfL Bye-law 11 (1) and (4)

11. General safety
(1) No person shall move, operate, obstruct, stop or in any other way interfere with
any part of a train or other equipment on the railway except:
(i) in an emergency, by means of any equipment on or near which is a notice
indicating that is intended to be used in an emergency; or
(ii) any equipment intended for the use of passengers in that way in normal
operating circumstances. NR bye-laws
TfL Byelaw : (4) A person who attempts to breach any of Byelaws 11(1) to 11(3) shall be liable to the same penalties under the Byelaws as if he had breached that byelaw.
However based on what you have said I would also think that several other bye-laws could come into play.

Bye-laws 9(2) & (3) are worded so as technically you could be in breach of them.

9 (2) Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station on the railway is via a manned or automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the barrier in the correct manner.

(3) No person shall open a barrier or any other gate on the railway except where there is a notice indicating that it may be used by him or with permission from an authorised person.
NR Bye-laws
TfL Bye-law: (6) A person who attempts to breach any of Byelaws 9(1) to 9(5) shall be liable to the same penalties under the Byelaws as if he had breached that byelaw
However generally 9's are used to prosecute those who jump the gates, climb over fences and double shuffle.

Assistant A as you called them, told the buggy customer to wait by Assistant A till all passengers had passed through. This is the safety instruction and by doing what you have done this maybe is a technical breach of 12(2).

(2) An authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances in which he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to any person on the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such instructions. NR and TfL Bye-laws
.



Now of course I am only talking (well typing) with my previous BR/IC/NSE experience, others may have completely differing views. This is the beauty of a forum environment. Many heads are better then no heads!!

Now in regards to making a complaint to FGW. Sam has already told you why not to and I will repeat him adding some stuff.
At the present time, the inspector has no details of you apart from your Oystercard number. I doubt they would be able to get CCTV. They will log it in a notebook (prob wont) and then fill in a report form (again prob wont) and then send it off to prosecutions (read as will forget).
However if you complain to FGW Customer Services and start confusing them with byelaws what you think they will do? Send it across to prosecutions. They will then ask the inspector what happened. The inspector will remember half of the story (convenient thinking??) make you out to be a criminal, etc etc, and it could get worse. FGW could then either warn you or prosecute you.

MikeWh has a good idea, if you are worried it will get blocked. Just tell them your having to slightly bend the card to get it to register otherwise it gives out a "seek assistance" message.
Every TOC has a person that has access to the Oyster Database (yes you all agreed to it by getting the oystercard). These people can Hotlist and read detailed journey history. They cant un-hotlist and cant see/amend balances. The oyster system updates overnight anyway so nothing can be done "immediately".

Re the Young Persons details, I am unaware of this new addition to Oyster. I know you get the discount, but other then that no idea. Next time you go to an underground machine check what it states at the top. "You have presented an... Adult Oystercard" or ".... An Unregistered Oystercard".

Anyway onto your specific questions, some which I think Sam has already gone over with you.
a) Yes you have broken 11. However as stated above, maybe 9(2),(3) or 12(2)???
b) See a above.
c) I wouldn't as stated above.
d) Hmmm???


Obviously its entirly up to you what your next stage is. If you see this inspector again, try not to engage them or give them ANY reason to stop you. As this would be a way they could get your details for the new 'offence' and then add the address details to the old offence. I have heard of this being done before on a certain pink commuter London TOC that may or may not go to a location with a 'top' university.
If they ask for your ticket, give it to them. Photocard, same. Be ultra polite as it does p**s off some inspectors as they want a rise.

Doesn't matter then an MG11 was not completed at the time, the MG11 can be completed at a later date by prosecutions.

Re the phone: I believe that First as a whole do issue some people with iPhones. Generally yes it is Blackberries, however I have seen some staff on FCC with company branded iPhones and many many apps. Also whats to stop the inspector taking the sim from a company blackberry and putting it into their iPhone. It may not be a company phone... but it is a company sim card??
I will have to do some digging on this one.


John Williams
Chief Editor
PFAS
Twitter: @penaltyfare
 
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BrownE

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Also whats to stop the inspector taking the sim from a company blackberry and putting it into their iPhone. It may not be a company phone... but it is a company sim card??
Thanks John, a very detailed reply. That's the whole issue with Bring Your Own Device, the SIM card only acts as a small memory store; photos will be stored on the phones memory; which is the same, regardless of the SIM card. Anyway Info Sec isn't relevant, I can email you about it if you wish. :)
 

Stigy

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I find that rather outrageous. He has, in effect, simply pinched your PAYG credit. I don't see how that could be permissible in any circumstances - even if you were using the ticket fraudulently the unused value is still yours - and in any case this wasn't a ticket irregularity.
It's acceptable for staff to seize Oyster Cards as evidence, but it's more commonplace to jot down the number of the card and have it blacklisted. The card remains the property of TfL, so there's no issue. Any funds on the card will sooner or later be retuned, and a receipt will usually be given.
 

PFAS

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Stigy
I was always under the impression that staff were instructed NOT to confiscate Oystercards due to the fact that to do so is Theft because of the £5 deposit.

Obviously if the card has a photograph on it and the person using it bears no resemblance to the photograph then indeed you can confiscate it as it is not theirs in the first place.

I do know of a few RPIs that have been the subject of criminal proceedings because they have confiscated a PAYG oystercard as 'evidence'. The TOC changed its stance very quickly afterwards.

Yes it prob cost the person suing more money, but we all know some people do have more money then sense sometimes.
 

Stigy

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Stigy
I was always under the impression that staff were instructed NOT to confiscate Oystercards due to the fact that to do so is Theft because of the £5 deposit.

Obviously if the card has a photograph on it and the person using it bears no resemblance to the photograph then indeed you can confiscate it as it is not theirs in the first place.

I do know of a few RPIs that have been the subject of criminal proceedings because they have confiscated a PAYG oystercard as 'evidence'. The TOC changed its stance very quickly afterwards.

Yes it prob cost the person suing more money, but we all know some people do have more money then sense sometimes.
We were instructed to jot the number down and have the card blacklisted, but have since been advised that we should once again seize the card. I see what you're saying, but the Oyster Card, PAYG or otherwise, remains the property of TfL, therefore can be seized as evidence. There'll be a 'digital' log so as to prevent the card being used once it's been seized by staff, so as to prevent the customer from complaining that their money has been used etc.

I'd be interested to see how such criminal proceedings of theft would pan out in such an instance as it seems very strange.
 

barrykas

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My understanding is that when a railcard is added to an Oyster card staff just ticks a "railcard" box in the software and enters an expiration date. I don't think any personal details are recorded.
To be able to add a Railcard (or any other discount) entitlement to an Oyster, the card MUST be registered. The system won't let you put it on without doing so.

It's left as an exercise for the reader as to whether staff are doing so correctly, however!

Cheers,

Barry
 
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