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CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

Rhydgaled

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I don’t know if it needs 6 carriages Mach - Shrewsbury but 4 can be very cosy in summer, 5 would add a good boost of capacity but it’s not possible with the current 158 or 197 fleet for the Cambrian.
But not to mention 2 is not enough on many services between Mach and Aberystwyth or Pwllheli. So during summer a 3+3 splitting at Mach would make a lot of sense IMO.
Agreed; since ETCS has effectively restricted the Cambrian to one type of unit I've been of the opinion that the only better choice of unit at the time to the 158s would have been 159s (basically a 3-car version of the same thing). 6-cars Machynlleth to Shrewsbury does sound a little overkill, but Aberystwyth certainly would benefit from 3-cars on the busier trips year-round and the Coast in the summer. The tricky bit is how to provide a 2-car unit for the coast in the winter but 3-cars in summer. Perhaps the better option would be 3+2+2 with Aberystwyth having the 3-car unit and 4-cars up the Coast in summer with the other 2 detached at Shrewsbury in Winter (but, given the need for a Wrexham portion as well, that would make it 9 or 10 coaches between Shrewsbury and Birmingham).

I'm amused by the posted saying something like "Good news for knees and elbows" - standard plus is coming.

So they're saying that their regular seats are uncomfortably cramped?
I wouldn't say the seats on a 197 are cramped. I'm 6ft 2 and find them perfectly fine. A 150 or.153 I find cramped.

But there is is no denying standard plus offers far more comfortable seats and more personal space.
Sadly I've not had a chance to try Standard Plus (I've still only had one trip on a 197, Shrewsbury to Wem, and I'm pretty sure that was only a 2-car unit) and now probably never will. Standard class on a 197 does have a slightly better seat pitch (spacing) in the non-priority airline-style seats (800mm vs 820mm I think) but the class 175s were even more roomy with, I think, 840mm between each row.

I'm a similar height to you (give or take half an inch probably) and I agree that 150s and 153s are too tightly packed with seats. The 158s I can just about fit in since ATW fitted the less-comfy but thiner-backed (and still better than the Sophias on 80x) new seats in the refurb around 2011, but mostly I aim for table bays on anything but 175s to avoid getting my knees crushed against the seat in front.

Slightly off-topic but given the gangway design of the 197s, wasn’t it time TfW named one of their Civities Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer for the coming Christmas season ? :E
I'm not sure the gangway design is particularly Reindeer-esque, but the livery is certainly red-nosed. They're all Rudolphs! With the big red doors as well they have somewhat of a London Underground look to them externally too.

Which routes are the SP units intended for, from December?

Assuming they'll only do Manchester-Swansea every 2 hours, that'll only require 5 of 6 SP units from the total of 14. Are the rest intended for Cardiff-Holyhead, Manchester-Llandudno, or a mixture of both?
Of course, when they were ordered (with first class rather than standard plus) they were expected to work Manchester-Swansea hourly (so around 9 units, still a little shy of full utilisation so it's always been a mystery where else was expected to see them). I would hope that TfW are still planning to provide an hourly 5-car fast service between Cardiff and Swansea, so perhaps the Standard Plus diagrams on that route will do Manchester-Swansea-Cardiff-Swansea-Manchester, but this will still be less than the originally expected 9 diagrams due to the mark 4s now running Cardiff-Manchester every two hours. Presumably, this means more of the normal 3-car units on other routes will be replaced by Standard Plus units, releasing a small handful of normal (non-SP) 3-car 197s. If they are still going to impose the 197s on the Cambrian, they could do worse than fit those few released 3-car non-SP units with ETCS.
 
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Lurcheroo

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Agreed; since ETCS has effectively restricted the Cambrian to one type of unit I've been of the opinion that the only better choice of unit at the time to the 158s would have been 159s (basically a 3-car version of the same thing). 6-cars Machynlleth to Shrewsbury does sound a little overkill, but Aberystwyth certainly would benefit from 3-cars on the busier trips year-round and the Coast in the summer. The tricky bit is how to provide a 2-car unit for the coast in the winter but 3-cars in summer. Perhaps the better option would be 3+2+2 with Aberystwyth having the 3-car unit and 4-cars up the Coast in summer with the other 2 detached at Shrewsbury in Winter (but, given the need for a Wrexham portion as well, that would make it 9 or 10 coaches between Shrewsbury and Birmingham).
Yeah it’s a rough one in my opinion.
With 2 cars and a limit of 3 units working in multiple for passenger services then there is no good way to offer additional capacity to both Aberystwyth and Pwllheli whilst providing a through service.
 

Rhydgaled

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With 2 cars and a limit of 3 units working in multiple for passenger services then there is no good way to offer additional capacity to both Aberystwyth and Pwllheli whilst providing a through service.
Apart from maybe going back down to a two-hourly service from Aberystwyth but moving them to the hours that the Coast train doesn't run and providing 4 cars on both (in other words, an hourly 4-car service between Birmingham and Dovey Junction which alternates between Pwllheli one hour and Aberystwyth the next).

Since this is the 197 thread, I assume the limit of 3 units in multiple applies to 197s (if I recall correctly the limit for Sprinters (including 158s) is 9 cabs which, if I'm right, would be four units - not that you can get a 9-cab formation without doing a hybrid as per GWR 3-car 158s)?
 

D7672

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197037-041 in stages of finishing off the batch of the cambrian sets at caf.
Then it will be the ecml lner 10 coach sets either this year forward or early next year.
 

Lurcheroo

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Apart from maybe going back down to a two-hourly service from Aberystwyth but moving them to the hours that the Coast train doesn't run and providing 4 cars on both (in other words, an hourly 4-car service between Birmingham and Dovey Junction which alternates between Pwllheli one hour and Aberystwyth the next).
I suppose that is a possibility.

Since this is the 197 thread, I assume the limit of 3 units in multiple applies to 197s (if I recall correctly the limit for Sprinters (including 158s) is 9 cabs which, if I'm right, would be four units - not that you can get a 9-cab formation without doing a hybrid as per GWR 3-car 158s)?
Yes, 197 are 3 units together (so max 9 cars in 3+3+3) for passenger service and max 4 units together (so max 12 cars in 3+3+3+3) for empty stock moves.
I’m sure I was told sprinters are 5sets of cabs coupled together but don’t quote me on that.
 

Lurcheroo

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Are the ERMTS 197 units likely to stray off their core route like the ERMTS 158s do?
The idea is no they will not, but you know how things go.

I do not know if they will do Birmingham-Holyhead but I’ve heard no definitive plan as to how things will be diagrammed if not.

I would assume that just like the SP 197’s will be getting their own diagrams, the ERTMS ones will too.
 

norbitonflyer

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Agreed; since ETCS has effectively restricted the Cambrian to one type of unit I've been of the opinion that the only better choice of unit at the time to the 158s would have been 159s (basically a 3-car version of the same thing).
There are three-car 158s, Northern (8) and GWR (5) operate them. Four of the GWR sets were formed by re-forming six 2-car sets, but the other nine have purpose-built centre cars.

159s are essentially 3-car former class 158s converted for use on, originally, Network South East and now SWR.
 

ThePeakNed

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Since this is the 197 thread, I assume the limit of 3 units in multiple applies to 197s (if I recall correctly the limit for Sprinters (including 158s) is 9 cabs which, if I'm right, would be four units - not that you can get a 9-cab formation without doing a hybrid as per GWR 3-car 158s)?
Bit of a common misconception. It's not down to cabs, it's down to Brake Control Units. It just so happens that most sprinter formations are 2 cars by and large, but a proper 158 / 159 centre car also has a BCU, therefore you could have a 9 BCU consist, as that would be 3 x 3 car 158s, and only have 6 cabs.
 

Lurcheroo

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Bit of a common misconception. It's not down to cabs, it's down to Brake Control Units. It just so happens that most sprinter formations are 2 cars by and large, but a proper 158 / 159 centre car also has a BCU, therefore you could have a 9 BCU consist, as that would be 3 x 3 car 158s, and only have 6 cabs.
Ohhh! Very interesting! Thank you.
 

Bikeman78

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Bit of a common misconception. It's not down to cabs, it's down to Brake Control Units. It just so happens that most sprinter formations are 2 cars by and large, but a proper 158 / 159 centre car also has a BCU, therefore you could have a 9 BCU consist, as that would be 3 x 3 car 158s, and only have 6 cabs.
I was always under the impression that it was 12 cabs for Sprinters or eight cabs for Pacers. Are you saying that it's vehicles rather than cabs? Or do some units, e.g. class 153s, have two brake control units?
 

craigybagel

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I was always under the impression that it was 12 cabs for Sprinters or eight cabs for Pacers. Are you saying that it's vehicles rather than cabs? Or do some units, e.g. class 153s, have two brake control units?
TfW drivers are taught 10 cabs, although I do believe it may be 12 at other TOCs. 153s do indeed have 2 brake control units for redundancy.
 

MP393

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197013 & 197112 allocated to 5 car ASDO Proving runs tonight for Shrewsbury - Manchester. Hopefully a step forward in getting them permitted.
 

Topological

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Since the Mk4 discussion is now in Trip Planning and Reports, where are we up to with 197s.

The specific thread about Standard Plus in trip planning suggests that Standard Plus is not now happening (well not for now). Is that the case? I was thinking that the last chance to sit in one of the seats had gone (I am an Economist, no paying when standard is perfectly good).
 

WirralLine

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Since the Mk4 discussion is now in Trip Planning and Reports, where are we up to with 197s.

The specific thread about Standard Plus in trip planning suggests that Standard Plus is not now happening (well not for now). Is that the case? I was thinking that the last chance to sit in one of the seats had gone (I am an Economist, no paying when standard is perfectly good).
Had an email this morning saying Standard Plus upgrades had been pushed back until further notice and not to sell any upgrades. Unsure why this is, or when it'll be introduced.
 

BenBracken

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Took a spin on one from west Wales to Cardiff yesterday. The ride didn’t seem as bad, and I was sitting near the front where the bogies are, have any modifications been made or am I just getting used to 197s now? Or have they been putting more CWR out west? It was a 2 car unit but then it coupled up to a 3 car in Cardiff before heading onto Manchester. Is that quite normal now? Also, what is the noise that sounds like a two tone doorbell?
 

Lurcheroo

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Took a spin on one from west Wales to Cardiff yesterday. The ride didn’t seem as bad, and I was sitting near the front where the bogies are, have any modifications been made or am I just getting used to 197s now? Or have they been putting more CWR out west? It was a 2 car unit but then it coupled up to a 3 car in Cardiff before heading onto Manchester. Is that quite normal now? Also, what is the noise that sounds like a two tone doorbell?
No mods that I’m aware of, can’t say about track replacement down there.

It does happen but the 2 cars have to be taken off at Shrewsbury.

I believe the 2 tone you hear is the crew - crew call. Someone might correct me there.
 

craigybagel

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Took a spin on one from west Wales to Cardiff yesterday. The ride didn’t seem as bad, and I was sitting near the front where the bogies are, have any modifications been made or am I just getting used to 197s now?
Probably the latter, I'm not aware of any mods either and the ride in the cabs is still a bit lively, to put it gently.
It was a 2 car unit but then it coupled up to a 3 car in Cardiff before heading onto Manchester. Is that quite normal now?
2 services a day are booked to attach at Cardiff to go forward as 4 car sets to Manchester. Other ad-hoc attachments do also sometimes occur to get sets in the right place. I've not been in work since the test runs took place but as far as I know 5 cars between Shrewsbury and Manchester haven't been signed off yet
Also, what is the noise that sounds like a two tone doorbell?
As my colleague pointed out, it's the cab to cab phone, which also sounds throughout the train - a very handy improvement for crews over previous units.
 

Lurcheroo

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I've not been in work since the test runs took place but as far as I know 5 cars between Shrewsbury and Manchester haven't been signed off yet
I was on Shrewsbury Platform4 waiting for the 19:30 (which eventually arrived around 20:50) and a 5 car Manchester came through and they took the back 2 off so I’d guess that’s some sort of proof that it’s not signed off yet.
 

Cambrian359

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As we were pulling into platform 5 Shrewsbury about 9.20am on Wednesday from Cambrian line a 6 coach 197 was pulling out of platform 7. I think when I looked at the time it was Holyhead - Cardiff.
while it was great seeing such a formation I’m presuming it was more about moving units around than the standard formation for that service?
 

pokemonsuper9

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As we were pulling into platform 5 Shrewsbury about 9.20am on Wednesday from Cambrian line a 6 coach 197 was pulling out of platform 7. I think when I looked at the time it was Holyhead - Cardiff.
while it was great seeing such a formation I’m presuming it was more about moving units around than the standard formation for that service?
Looking through the past few days on RTT, that service has been at least 5 coaches (either 2+3 or 3+3) on Monday-Friday since 12/9/2024.
Usually 3 coaches from Holyhead that meet the other half at Crewe, but sometimes has been 2 from Holyhead.
 

Lurcheroo

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The 19:28 Shrewsbury - Holyhead rocked up as a 6 car on platform 4 tonight. And then they put a 4car 158 behind it to go down the Cambrian.
 

60159

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Today at Crewe depot (3/10/24):

197003 and 197030
What exactly do you mean by depot?
LNWR?
I may be wrong but did you not used to give regular updates re what’s at Donnington? Do you know? As also at Crewe South.
I’m trying to establish how many still have to leave the factory.
 

childwallblues

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What exactly do you mean by depot?
LNWR?
I may be wrong but did you not used to give regular updates re what’s at Donnington? Do you know? As also at Crewe South.
I’m trying to establish how many still have to leave the factory.
Not LNWR called Arriva Train care these days.
 

craigybagel

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Is that the modern building as opposed to the long old carriage shed?
It's all the same - Arriva Train Care encompasses the entire depot on the Up side of the WCML The carriage shed is mostly used for overnight stabling and light maintenance whilst the modern building is used for more long term work.

Although there are several maintenance depots dotted around Crewe, ATC is the only one used by TOCs for overnight stabling.

I was on Shrewsbury Platform4 waiting for the 19:30 (which eventually arrived around 20:50) and a 5 car Manchester came through and they took the back 2 off so I’d guess that’s some sort of proof that it’s not signed off yet.
There's still some work to do before 5 cars are signed off. Some amendments are being made to the ASDO database, and there may need to be some movement of the 5 car stop boards. So we're not there yet, but hopefully soon.
 

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