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Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by hexagon789, 9 May 2019.
Mod Note: Posts #1 - #8 originally in this thread.
The CAF units are getting First Class?
The 3-car sets are, yes.
Very interesting, first I've heard of that. Presumably there's a thread for those units?
Bottom of linked page 2024 onwards for first class
Cheers. Quite interesting that they should decide Swansea - Manchester warrants First Class.
I think that's because it's the route with the highest revenue earning (as I've heard by rumours and discussed before).
Being cynical could it also be to get revenue split from any Cross Country first class fares via Birmingham?
It just surprised me as ATW never made any effort beyond the "Premier" service to provide a First Class product.
They didn't have a fleet of shiny new trains on order that would provide the capacity to allow enough space for 1st Class. The CAFs will run as 5 cars between Manchester and Swansea, which gives plenty of room for 1st.
Before I make a mistake here, are the TfW Civitys gangwayed?
Also thanks to the Mods for the splitting
All images to date have shown them to be end-gangwayed units, yes.
The similarity to Class 380s is pretty striking.
I'm surprised at the 1/3 - 2/3 door arrangement. I'd have thought end doors like a 158 or 175 unless that may prove the case and this render is not accurate in that respect.
I hope the first class is not completely awful!
You'd hope they'd do 2+1 with better seats than Standard, rather than some of the "pseudo"-First Class arrangements you get on many operators.
Mind you it can't be as bad as one "First Class" from the past I saw recently.
There seems to be very little or no strategic application of where First Class is or isn't needed. It just turns up, or doesn't, where the rolling stock has it.
First Class used to be provided on express services between Manchester Airport and Blackpool North, where it was always well-used, but it has been completely withdrawn now. Rolling stock with First Class has been procured on some Thameslink routes where First Class is always declassified. First Class is to be withdrawn from Stansted Express services, where I would imagine a reasonable if slim market for it exists, and the current units have very good First Class. It is to be added on these services on the Welsh Marches line, although only on certain units. Southeastern are likely to withdraw First Class completely, despite strong ticket sales from Tunbridge Wells and similar places. South Western Railway withdrew First Class from their services from London to Reading, but they will continue to offer it on services between Ascot and Aldershot. West Midlands Trains are to make First Class available on around half of services from Birmingham to Rugeley from 20th May, and almost all services in the other direction. At the moment, it is not available, except on the 0912 Birmingham New Street to Rugeley Trent Valley service, but I guess that's an error.
If TfW thinks there is a business or leisure demand for it then provided it is of reasonable quality I think they are right to introduce it.
I believe the plan is indeed for ⅓ ⅔ doors. It's pretty much a requirement for running through platform 13/14 at Manchester Piccadilly and will be very handy on many other sections of the long distance TfW routes.
I guess it will help with station dwells.
I have been in communication with Transport for Wales who confirmed that the 1/3, 2/3 doors are indeed intentional. In my opinion that's just not good enough. If platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly are the reason then the franchise is now expected to suffer a widespread reduction in rolling stock quality (compared to 158s and 175s) all because DfT like to spend money on roads and won't fund platforms 15 and 16 at Piccadilly. One station on the entire Wales & Borders network and we lose 51 regional express units and get suburban Civitys instead. Talk about the tail wagging the dog...
Door prejudice again. It's the interior you should be bothered about - shout about the ironing boards and insist on proper seats like Grammer IC3000s or FISA LEAN instead. And go for a ride on a 350/1 which is not a suburban interior.
Ah Rhydgaled, I was wondering when you'd pop up on this discussion of door positions. Rest assured there are plenty of locations where those doors will come in handy, not just in busy urban corridors. If the units are designed to a high standard, and as they'll be the flagship of the franchise and the Welsh Government have a lot at stake I suspect they will be, they will suit the needs of the network much better then the 175s do at present.
Suburban door configuration can work on express or at least long distance services if decent luggage space for large items is provided. The 185’s have woefully little luggage space for the type of routes they work.
However the 195/331 order for Northern is worse as the units will work both express (connect) services with very high luggage demand (Manchester Airport for one) and they will also be commuter trains. How many vertical luggage stacks do they have? None! One type of train for many different purposes.
Hopefully TfW will not make this mistake.
I think that 2+1 would be a bit optimistic on a 3 car set(would most likely be fine on 5 car).depending on workload of course.
capacity is king on the routes currently served by 14x/15x.
the javelin configuration works pretty well(1/4, 3/4 single doors but wider than 156/158's to cater for wheelchairs,prams and so on),and in terms of traffic density would be perfectly adequate for TfW routes.
the space for a recessed door is ideal for vertical luggage racks.
ok you might lose 5 or 10 seconds in dwell time compared to double leaf during rush hour, but you do gain 8 extra seats per car.From a passenger perspective I would take the seat any day.
it's usually overhead luggage racks that don't have enough capacity, turbostars and 158's being case in point.you can fit a "cabin approved" size small case on,but not a full blown suitcase....the 156's in this regard are vastly superior, and in truth it's not a particularly difficult retrofit to fix it.
The 3 car units with first class are planned to be joined by 2 cars from Carmarthen/Milford Haven to be 5 cars between Swansea and Manchester (hence no mention of first class west of Swansea), so hopefully they will have 2+1 seating in 1st
so I'm assuming the 2 car set will be fully standard class(it's a 3+2 set,not a full fat 5 car)
nice to hear that CAF intend to build it in newport in any case.
Yep all the 2 car sets will be standard only.
There will however be a sub class of 2 car units with ETCS for the cambrian as not all units are being fitted - I can't remember the reason for this though.
I'm fully expecting 2+2; seems to be the norm now except on longer-distance InterCity operators.
I would've thought would fit all the units, as with the 158s, for flexibility if nothing else.
I'm well out of touch with what's happening, clearly, as until I found this thread I didn't know what TfW had on order. I'm certainly interested in these new trains, they promise to be most welcome on the Marches route. The amount of times I hear people moaning "it's only a 2 coach train", "why can't they put an extra carriage on", "this train's always late/overcrowded" and so on is just awful. So 5-car trains will be a huge hit!
As will having First Class between South Wales and Manchester. The route is used by a lot of business travellers, and I can only imagine First Class will be well received by them. Assuming it's worth paying the extra money for, of course. I suspect we'll be waiting a long time to find that out, and I really hope TfW make it a premium product worth having.
As for the doors thing, by cripes that positioning is going to be very useful all over the network. In my local area, TfW services are used a lot by school and college-goers, mostly on the section between Ludlow and Hereford but also to a lesser extent to Abergavenny. It can take a noticeable amount of time to unload these crowds through the doors of 158s and 175s, so these new trains will be of great help there too.
Luggage provision is a huge complaint around here, after all there's a fair bit of long-distance travel from this neck of the woods. GWR's IETs seem fine in this regard but WMR and TfW are lacking most of the time. Hopefully this will be considered by TfW too.
However, I'm looking forward to the new order arriving, a few years to wait yet at a guess?
I think it's 2022-23 introduction for the Civitys.
I have a feeling that these will massively show up Northern. Everything from the spec just seems to be better.