CAF Civity for TfW

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by hexagon789, 9 May 2019.

  1. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    On what is quite a rural line, there's really no excuse for any standing ever.
     
  2. Envoy

    Envoy Established Member

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    What happens if a Labour government comes in and decides to electrify Cardiff to Swansea? That being so, surely it would make sense for the new CAF trains to be bi-mode being as they would also be under the wires between Crewe & Manchester? All this take about pollution from diesels yet here we are in 2019 with a diesel only type of train on order.
     
  3. supervc-10

    supervc-10 Member

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    One of the big advantages of building them to 100mph is that if in the future they're cascaded to other routes, having that 100mph capability could be quite useful, and if they're basically just a WMR 196 with a different paint job and interior, then that further increases flexibility.
     
  4. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I think the argument for the CAFs is that if this happens they just get cascaded to non-electrified lines replacing some 15x, which are now getting quite old.
     
  5. 33017

    33017 Member

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    My memory of the original documents is the FC was supposed to be in a batch of 10 2-car units which were expected to work solely between Manchester and Swansea, detaching at the latter, then attaching back on the next train. The through units to west Wales were all supposed to be 3-car.
     
  6. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    I get that, it's definitely more flexible buying a 100mph than a 90mph unit.

    It was just a poor suggestion on my part that with a 90mph gearing you'd be better off on services with more stops seeing as most of Wales is 90 max. I can see it doesn't really make sense now at all!
     
  7. craigybagel

    craigybagel Established Member

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    With Aberystwyth going up to hourly all day, and also WMT doubling their services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham, that should provide plenty of relief for the Cambrian.

    Crewe to Manchester makes up 30 miles of a 233 mile journey to Milford Haven. Newport to Swansea would add another 57 miles. That's not a lot of milage to justify the expense and weight of carrying bi mode equipment around to mostly not be used.
     
  8. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    This (like VTXC) misses the point that it is likely that these improvements will grow custom substantially.

    2-car DMUs have no place running alone on the mainline.
     
  9. craigybagel

    craigybagel Established Member

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    You're talking about a 25% increase in services - on a line that only 2 years ago had a similar increase, on one of the most heavily subsidised franchises in the country. There's only so far you can justify planning for the future without spending ridiculous amounts of money. A near doubling of the service over the space of a few years, whilst maintaining train lengths is a much better decision then what Virgin did (doubling the service onlt the core parts of the network, and simultaneously shrinking the trains by over a third).
     
  10. squizzler

    squizzler Member

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    As the network enjoys further electrification in the years to come there should be the opportunity for further strengthening off services using cascaded stock (not on the ETCS-only Cambrian though).

    I wonder if there is provision to convert cab cars into centre cars if future traffic requires the shorter units to be reshuffled into longer formations?
     
    Last edited: 21 May 2019
  11. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    It's maintaining train lengths, but it is not maintaining capacity. A 2-car CAF has somewhat fewer seats than a 2-car Class 158. Therein, just like the TPE Class 185s, lies the problem.
     
  12. craigybagel

    craigybagel Established Member

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    That is true, but the reduction is marginal - and again, it's in the context of a massive increase in services overall. TPE by and large kept frequencies the same when they introduced 185s.

    Also, again, you're talking about a massively subsidised franchise. Yes, I'd love to see only 3 cars being ordered, but under the circumstances the entire W&B area has done remarkably well out of the franchise, Cambrian line included.
     
  13. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Definitely, regardless of operator we've moved on since late 1980s/early 1990s BR two-car Sprinterisation.

    TfW should perhaps have ordered all 3-car.
     
  14. Nymanic

    Nymanic Member

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    Agreed, although I at least permit TfW (and WMR) a modicum of credit in specifying new stock with corridor connections, and a certain (or at least high) probability of regular multiple workings.

    Northern's 195s, on the other hand...
     
  15. craigybagel

    craigybagel Established Member

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    All 3 car and you have an awful lot of fresh air being carried around, at great expense. Mixture of 2 and 3 cars, with gangways - gives you the flexibility you need without the finances getting too crazy.
     
  16. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Granted, really the only thing wrong with the order is the length of the sets, but I agree with the rest of it.
     
  17. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    True, but 2s should not be running on their own, and there should be enough for this to be the case. And Northern's order of 2s without gangways is nothing other than nuts.

    I'd have specced First Class in all of them, FWIW. It's money for old rope.
     
  18. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    But the issue with always ordering like that is it all too often proves inadequate
     
  19. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Indeed. If you're ordering stock that's going to be all the franchise gets for 20 years, you need to order to meet demand in 20 years' time. Not something that might *just* meet it now but only just.
     
  20. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Exactly, one has to plan for the long-term.
     
  21. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    This was where TPE (at DaFT's behest) really fell down - the plan should have been to double the length of the Class 185s over their lifespan - and if that wasn't viable progressively, to order that to begin with.
     
  22. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    And now of course most 185 services are single units and often overcrowded. If TfW planned ahead they wouldn't open themselves up to this possibility.
     
  23. Cambrian359

    Cambrian359 Member

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    WMT doubling trains up to Shrewsbury might help up to Shrewsbury but not beyond shrewsbury up to aber and Pwllheli.
    people who currently go to aber on the pwll/aber splitting service wont all suddenly decide to get the alternate aber only service between Shrewsbury and aber freeing up space on the pwll/aber splitter service.
    any space freed up on the splitting service is likely to be filled fairly quickly with new customer gained from the hourly service and the new station opening at bow street.
    to be fair the 20 less seats per train quoted by someone is quite significant, while there may be more standing room you surely cant create more capacity on line like the Cambrian line by making more people stand for long lengths of time.
    having all the new civitys fitted with ERTMS tech would certainly reassure people that when needed extra capacity can be added April-September , giving people less seats on less available trains for that line isn't reassuring for its users!
    sorry for rambling :)
     
  24. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

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    as far as the vast majority of them are concerned, yes. late 2021-2024 overall.
     
  25. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

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    The only reason Northern are getting new trains at all is because the Pacers have to go. Of course they're not going to be "nice" new trains.
     
  26. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

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    more people do Aberystwyth to Birmingham / Birmingham to Aberystwyth than you think!
     
  27. PaulHarding150

    PaulHarding150 Member

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    An electrified Swansea to Newport plus Crewe to Manchester would account for 38% of the Milford - Manchester journey.

    Presently Cardiff - Newport is 12 miles, plus the 30 miles from Crewe to Machester makes it 18% of the journey under wires.

    Given these new trains will be owned by TfW (not TfW rail) they will be in constant use for the next 30-35 years, it would make sense to make them bi-modal, especially given the criticism made by the WG of the UK Govt over transport plans.

    TfW have signed an order for (I think) 66 new diesel only trains - the biggest current order in the UK and it must be one of the highest in Europe right now - doesn't quite fit with the Climate Emergency WG Ministers voted to declare a few weeks ago does it?
     
  28. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

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    the CAF units can be retractioned post-2040
     
    Last edited: 23 May 2019
  29. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

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    Isn't 90mph the absolute highest line speed in Wales, with most of Wales being a mixture of 70/60 etc...?
     
  30. anamyd

    anamyd Established Member

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    PaulHarding150, 77 units have been ordered, and I was under the impression that they'll be leased from some Japanese bank.
     
    Last edited: 23 May 2019

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