CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[hexagon789]

I was told that no 175 has ever seen the Cambrian Lines because apparently they don't even have RETB equipment let alone ETCS...? The 158s on the Cambrian Line until 2011, and non-158 units that went on the Cambrian Lines until 2001 (Central Trains' 150/153/156/170) were all RETB-fitted

175s have neither, yes. Only TfW 158s have ETCS. ScotRail has plug-in units first it's 158s.

A 158 travelling north of Inverness has its unit plugged in at Inverness, I believe the 156s have fixed units.

 

[krus_aragon]

Personally I think the answer is to retain one of the existing fleets (158s or 175s) for Heart of Wales and Pembrokeshire/Carmarthen duties. That way, in the event of future electrification (either on the north Wales coast or in south-east Wales) 20 odd Civity DMUs could be cascaded to replace the older fleet, allowing new EMUs or bi-modes to come in to take advantage of the new wires.

The cascading / electrification strategy works with the planned 170s too, plus there's scope for acquiring extra DMUs if demand rises: there will probably be more 170s spare in the UK than 175s.

Was your argument focusing on the internal layout of the 175 compared with the likes of the 170?

 

[squizzler]

The cascading / electrification strategy works with the planned 170s too, plus there's scope for acquiring extra DMUs if demand rises: there will probably be more 170s spare in the UK than 175s.

Was your argument focusing on the internal layout of the 175 compared with the likes of the 170?

The low speed on the Heart of Wales makes me feel the class 170s, often cited as slow to accelerate and inefficient at low speed, were a poor choice. Whilst the CAF units would have much better performance I feel that TfW may wish to consider a follow-on order of Viva 230 for that route. The 170s can keep going west and make a new life for themselves in Ireland.

 

[Envoy]

The low speed on the Heart of Wales makes me feel the class 170s, often cited as slow to accelerate and inefficient at low speed, were a poor choice. Whilst the CAF units would have much better performance I feel that TfW may wish to consider a follow-on order of Viva 230 for that route. The 170s can keep going west and make a new life for themselves in Ireland.

The Class 170’s have big windows = great for the scenery. They also have air conditioning so a big step up from the present 150’s/153’s on the Heart of Wales.

 

[Bletchleyite]

175s have neither, yes. Only TfW 158s have ETCS. ScotRail has plug-in units first it's 158s.

A 158 travelling north of Inverness has its unit plugged in at Inverness, I believe the 156s have fixed units.

An advantage of RETB over ETCS is that the unit is small and simple enough to have portable/removable ones as you note.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Class 170’s have big windows = great for the scenery. They also have air conditioning so a big step up from the present 150’s/153’s on the Heart of Wales.

However they are very inefficient at low speeds. That said, if TfW and Northern fitted Class 172 (or Civity)-type mechanical transmissions that would be solved - I would consider such an installation very sensible indeed.

 

[craigybagel]

I was told that no 175 has ever seen the Cambrian Lines because apparently they don't even have RETB equipment let alone ETCS...? The 158s on the Cambrian Line until 2011, and non-158 units that went on the Cambrian Lines until 2001 (Central Trains' 150/153/156/170) were all RETB-fitted

That's all correct. The Cambrian was effectively 158 only even before ERTMS as no other units at ATW had RETB fitted. So even if it had been retained, it's hard to see how any other units could have been cascaded there during summer.

The low speed on the Heart of Wales makes me feel the class 170s, often cited as slow to accelerate and inefficient at low speed, were a poor choice. Whilst the CAF units would have much better performance I feel that TfW may wish to consider a follow-on order of Viva 230 for that route. The 170s can keep going west and make a new life for themselves in Ireland.

The slow acceleration shouldn't be an issue down there - the timetable is extremely generous, even with a 153 you're regularly waiting time. 170s also benefit from the fact they're not being procured solely for this route; they'll be part of a pool that will also work West Wales services and Crewe - Shrewsbury. Whilst that would also be true of the 230s, those on order for TfW feature a metro layout that would be completely unsuitable for the HOWL. The 170 layout on the other hand should give the surprisingly large amount of passengers who make long journeys on that route a comfortable ride.

Mechanically speaking, if the 170s were only working that route there might be issues, but given the other routes they'll work will give them opportunities to stretch their legs a bit (and even on the HOWL they should hit 90, albeit briefly, North of Craven Arms), they should be ok IMO.

 

[squizzler]

The Class 170’s have big windows = great for the scenery. They also have air conditioning so a big step up from the present 150’s/153’s on the Heart of Wales.

Air conditioning is needed for a couple of days per year in the upland of mid wales I accept these trains will roam elsewhere though.

The slow acceleration shouldn't be an issue down there - the timetable is extremely generous, even with a 153 you're regularly waiting time. 170s also benefit from the fact they're not being procured solely for this route; they'll be part of a pool that will also work West Wales services and Crewe - Shrewsbury. Whilst that would also be true of the 230s, those on order for TfW feature a metro layout that would be completely unsuitable for the HOWL. The 170 layout on the other hand should give the surprisingly large amount of passengers who make long journeys on that route a comfortable ride.

Mechanically speaking, if the 170s were only working that route there might be issues, but given the other routes they'll work will give them opportunities to stretch their legs a bit (and even on the HOWL they should hit 90, albeit briefly, North of Craven Arms), they should be ok IMO.

I am more concerned about the poor energy efficiency of the HoWL operating regime.

However they are very inefficient at low speeds. That said, if TfW and Northern fitted Class 172 (or Civity)-type mechanical transmissions that would be solved - I would consider such an installation very sensible indeed.

I wonder how the economics stack up between that re-engineering or leasing the units elsewhere and ordering new build 230s? The latter option means more trains running about in total so more money going through the industry as a whole, but is it more cost effective to TfW?

 

[hexagon789]

An advantage of RETB over ETCS is that the unit is small and simple enough to have portable/removable ones as you note.

Exactly, unless an ETCS plug-in unit can be developed? Though I imagine that's likely not possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly, unless an ETCS plug-in unit can be developed? Though I imagine that's likely not possible.

I suspect not. Though it must surely be possible to develop something for a branch line that's pocket-sized these days - the complexity level isn't high at all, it's just the matter of properly proving the interlocking (both signal interlocking and any interlocking you might have with e.g. brakes on the unit).

ETCS is really a mainline thing, and it is really unsuitable for country branch lines in my view - it's just that a country branch line was a low-impact place to trial and test it.

 

[craigybagel]

Exactly, unless an ETCS plug-in unit can be developed? Though I imagine that's likely not possible.

This picture shows you how big the ERTMS equipment on a 158 is, which should answer your question.

I am more concerned about the poor energy efficiency of the HoWL operating regime.

And I'm more concerned about the poor financial sense in ordering special units for a very heavily subsidised route at what is already a very heavily subsidised franchise.

 

[hexagon789]

I suspect not. Though it must surely be possible to develop something for a branch line that's pocket-sized these days - the complexity level isn't high at all, it's just the matter of properly proving the interlocking (both signal interlocking and any interlocking you might have with e.g. brakes on the unit).

ETCS is really a mainline thing, and it is really unsuitable for country branch lines in my view - it's just that a country branch line was a low-impact place to trial and test it.

My idea of a plug-in was about flexibility, you wouldn't have to dedicate certain units, you could use any effectively.

 

[hexagon789]

This picture shows you how big the ERTMS equipment on a 158 is, which should answer your question.

Even as I posed my question, I thought it was likely going to be a big old piece of kit! And it is!

Not sure drivers would fancy carting all that about and plugging it in!

 

[Bletchleyite]

My idea of a plug-in was about flexibility, you wouldn't have to dedicate certain units, you could use any effectively.

Yes, I agree. For the Cambrian this would make a lot of sense, as you could probably fill 6 or even 8-car formations in the height of summer - the precise time when demand on commuter and "business IC" services is much lower - but on a random Wednesday in February a 2-car is probably fine. ETCS is an absolute nuisance in that it prevents this, whereas in CT days they could just whack another 153 on which was not needed elsewhere. They really should have picked a better place to test it - some sort of proper "driver, guard, one man and his dog and bicycle" branch line backwater rather than a line like this. The Far North, maybe?

 

[anamyd]

Even as I posed my question, I thought it was likely going to be a big old piece of kit! And it is!

Not sure drivers would fancy carting all that about and plugging it in!

I remember when the big cabinets were on unrefurbished 158s in 2011; they looked quite out of place!

craigybagel, there is also ETCS equipment below the solebar, correct...?

 

[talltim]

Every time I see this thread I think that Civity was a poor choice of name for a manufacturer called CAF. Just makes me think Cavity

 

[craigybagel]

I remember when the big cabinets were on unrefurbished 158s in 2011; they looked quite out of place!

craigybagel, there is also ETCS equipment below the solebar, correct...?

I don't know exactly - traditionally below the solebar is the drivers responsibility - but I'm assuming there would be some equipment there to pick up information from the balises. I could be wrong though.

Yes, I agree. For the Cambrian this would make a lot of sense, as you could probably fill 6 or even 8-car formations in the height of summer - the precise time when demand on commuter and "business IC" services is much lower - but on a random Wednesday in February a 2-car is probably fine. ETCS is an absolute nuisance in that it prevents this, whereas in CT days they could just whack another 153 on which was not needed elsewhere. They really should have picked a better place to test it - some sort of proper "driver, guard, one man and his dog and bicycle" branch line backwater rather than a line like this. The Far North, maybe?

The plan is for ERTMS to be used on the ECML in the future. Surely as a pilot scheme you'd not want the railway used to be too quiet?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The plan is for ERTMS to be used on the ECML in the future. Surely as a pilot scheme you'd not want the railway used to be too quiet?

The point is that it should not be one where it causes a significant operational disadvantage - it certainly does and has for the Cambrian.

 

[craigybagel]

The point is that it should not be one where it causes a significant operational disadvantage - it certainly does and has for the Cambrian.

What exactly is the "significant" operational disadvantage? Even if it wasn't for ERTMS the line would more then likely be restricted to 158s only - it already was under ATW. And the RETB equipment needed replacing anyway.

It's hard to think of any line that is isolated enough (and has no freight) to keep the fleet requirements relatively small but also covers a decent distance and has many trains running over it simultaneously to be sufficiently educational as a pilot project - and that also required resignalling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What exactly is the "significant" operational disadvantage?

Primarily increased summer demand over winter, which has led to significant overcrowding because, unlike during CT's tenure, they couldn't just whack a couple of 153s on which weren't needed for commuter services due to the reduced number of commuters during the holidays.

 

[craigybagel]

Primarily increased summer demand over winter, which has led to significant overcrowding because, unlike during CT's tenure, they couldn't just whack a couple of 153s on which weren't needed for commuter services due to the reduced number of commuters during the holidays.

But under ATW, that wasn't happening anyway. And they haven't got enough 153s to send them to the Cambrian even in the summer. And ATW cut back on route and traction knowledge to the point that it would have been a major struggle to run 153s on the Cambrian. What they did try and do was to shuffle other units around to free up 158s.

And you still have the issue of needing to put a trial of ERTMS somewhere in the UK.....

 

[Techniquest]

Every time I see this thread I think that Civity was a poor choice of name for a manufacturer called CAF. Just makes me think Cavity

I can see myself calling them 'Cavities' when they enter service! Sounds like a fairly suitable nickname!

 

[krus_aragon]

I can see myself calling them 'Cavities' when they enter service! Sounds like a fairly suitable nickname!

I will applaud your foresight when the new units have teething troubles!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I will applaud your foresight when the new units have teething troubles!

I think it's actually quite a good name, it sort of echoes "civic", which I guess it's meant to.

 

[Techniquest]

I will applaud your foresight when the new units have teething troubles!

I hadn't considered that! Maybe CAF had better get a plan with various NHS dental surgeries now!

 

[hexagon789]

I can see myself calling them 'Cavities' when they enter service! Sounds like a fairly suitable nickname!

Very apt if they end up full of holes!

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, I agree. For the Cambrian this would make a lot of sense, as you could probably fill 6 or even 8-car formations in the height of summer - the precise time when demand on commuter and "business IC" services is much lower - but on a random Wednesday in February a 2-car is probably fine. ETCS is an absolute nuisance in that it prevents this, whereas in CT days they could just whack another 153 on which was not needed elsewhere. They really should have picked a better place to test it - some sort of proper "driver, guard, one man and his dog and bicycle" branch line backwater rather than a line like this. The Far North, maybe?

I think you'd ideally want a less rural one than the Cambrian or Far North where frequency is at least hourly but it's not a through line or so rural that if service is scuppered there's no easy alternative transport.

 

[hexagon789]

I remember when the big cabinets were on unrefurbished 158s in 2011; they looked quite out of place!

Must eat up a fair few seats on each car as well I guess.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Must eat up a fair few seats on each car as well I guess.

Just half the luggage rack.

 

[hexagon789]

Just half the luggage rack.

Oh right, that's pretty good actually.