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CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

sw1ller

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Regarding the ERTMS under solebar, there’s just an ECTS doppler radar just in front of the front bogie and a balise reader just behind the front bogie (both ends of course). The rest of the equipment is the massive cupboard as shown by @craigybagel , the ERTMS screen in the cab, an isolation switch and a reset button. There’s also 1 or 2 transmitters/receivers on the roof but I can’t find the notes for the full system anywhere so I can’t confirm them.

Just a note about ERTMS, it can’t be switched off. It can only be isolated if it’s broke and preventing the train from moving. It then has to come out of service. Network rail won’t allow us to deactivate it when not running on lines not fitted with that signalling type. Which is a major pain for us drivers shunting them about at the depots. Some can take 5 minutes to boot up if they fail the first time.

Given these were designed nearly 10 years ago. If they were designed today, would they take up nearly as much room? Pretty sure the computer power needed could fit in an iPhone these days? No? (I’ve never seen inside the massive cupboard, they won’t let us near it! (Probably for the best to be fair))
 
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hexagon789

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Regarding the ERTMS under solebar, there’s just an ECTS doppler radar just in front of the front bogie and a balise reader just behind the front bogie (both ends of course). The rest of the equipment is the massive cupboard as shown by @craigybagel , the ERTMS screen in the cab, an isolation switch and a reset button. There’s also 1 or 2 transmitters/receivers on the roof but I can’t find the notes for the full system anywhere so I can’t confirm them.

Just a note about ERTMS, it can’t be switched off. It can only be isolated if it’s broke and preventing the train from moving. It then has to come out of service. Network rail won’t allow us to deactivate it when not running on lines not fitted with that signalling type. Which is a major pain for us drivers shunting them about at the depots. Some can take 5 minutes to boot up if they fail the first time.

Given these were designed nearly 10 years ago. If they were designed today, would they take up nearly as much room? Pretty sure the computer power needed could fit in an iPhone these days? No? (I’ve never seen inside the massive cupboard, they won’t let us near it! (Probably for the best to be fair))

That's an intersection point - that with technological progress the equipment could be downsized.

If sufficiently down-sizeable - couldn't plug-in ECTS be developed?
 

sw1ller

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That's an intersection point - that with technological progress the equipment could be downsized.

If sufficiently down-sizeable - couldn't plug-in ECTS be developed?

Well, that’s what I was thinking. It would still need the equipment on the roof and under the train, but everything else could be incorporated on to an iPad. Maybe?
 

hexagon789

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Well, that’s what I was thinking. It would still need the equipment on the roof and under the train, but everything else could be incorporated on to an iPad. Maybe?

Maybe, in the future?

Just seems that having such a limited fleet for the Cambrian is asking for trouble when issues occur.
 

anamyd

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Regarding the ERTMS under solebar, there’s just an ECTS doppler radar just in front of the front bogie and a balise reader just behind the front bogie (both ends of course). The rest of the equipment is the massive cupboard as shown by @craigybagel , the ERTMS screen in the cab, an isolation switch and a reset button. There’s also 1 or 2 transmitters/receivers on the roof but I can’t find the notes for the full system anywhere so I can’t confirm them.

Just a note about ERTMS, it can’t be switched off. It can only be isolated if it’s broke and preventing the train from moving. It then has to come out of service. Network rail won’t allow us to deactivate it when not running on lines not fitted with that signalling type. Which is a major pain for us drivers shunting them about at the depots. Some can take 5 minutes to boot up if they fail the first time.

Given these were designed nearly 10 years ago. If they were designed today, would they take up nearly as much room? Pretty sure the computer power needed could fit in an iPhone these days? No? (I’ve never seen inside the massive cupboard, they won’t let us near it! (Probably for the best to be fair))
Thanks a lot for that info :)
 

sw1ller

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Maybe, in the future?

Just seems that having such a limited fleet for the Cambrian is asking for trouble when issues occur.

I do agree with that, but as I dont drive the Cambrian, I’m glad that’s what they’re doing. I’m being completely selfish there but it’s really a pain of a system. I like the depot jobs at night in Chester, but waiting for that computer really can be annoying. It’s also a SPAD risk.

That being said, I’m sure a new system would boot up much quicker and not have as many issues with failures or power surges.
 

hexagon789

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I do agree with that, but as I dont drive the Cambrian, I’m glad that’s what they’re doing. I’m being completely selfish there but it’s really a pain of a system. I like the depot jobs at night in Chester, but waiting for that computer really can be annoying. It’s also a SPAD risk.

That being said, I’m sure a new system would boot up much quicker and not have as many issues with failures or power surges.

Considering that it's eventually going to get rolled out across the country, you wonder how well cope if all the trains are delayed 5-10 minutes by a system reboot!

Hopefully the Civitys will have more modern equipment that's more reliable and faster at rebooting.
 

anamyd

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Perhaps the CAF Civity DMUs will have more powerful computer systems for ETCS...?
 

Cambrian359

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Considering that it's eventually going to get rolled out across the country, you wonder how well cope if all the trains are delayed 5-10 minutes by a system reboot!

Hopefully the Civitys will have more modern equipment that's more reliable and faster at rebooting.
Which makes you wonder it’s not being fitted to all civitys given it’s the future tech for train management! (All new trains for that matter)
 

hexagon789

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Which makes you wonder it’s not being fitted to all civitys given it’s the future tech for train management! (All new trains for that matter)

I did consider that as well, but I guess that higher-speed mainlines (125mph with potential 140 increases) will be first for fittment rather than 90mph or less regional lines in Wales?
 

Sleeperwaking

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Which makes you wonder it’s not being fitted to all civitys given it’s the future tech for train management! (All new trains for that matter)
Most new fleets are ordered with passive provision for ERTMS / ETCS. This can mean anything from leaving space for equipment to be installed later on (including sufficient spare cables / wiring looms) to fitting all the equipment but leaving it permanently isolated. I would hope that having part of the Civity W&B fleet with a fully designed / approved ERTMS installation would make the mod process easier for the remainder if required later on.
 

Llanigraham

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The signalling on the Cambrian immediately prior to ETCS wasn't what most would think of as 'conventional signalling'; if I recall correctly it was RETB (Radio Electric Token Block).
Correct.
And it wasn't perfect, by any means.

If I recall correctly, I once read that the Cambrian RETB had to go because the radio frequencies used were wanted for something else (perhaps 4G mobile phones). I could be wrong though.
And you aren't wrong.

Last week, I would have entirely agreed with you that 2-car DMUs have no place between Shrewsbury and Machynlleth (ie. most of the Cambrian Mainline). On the other hand, on Friday I took one of the new even-hour services into Aberystwyth (I think it was the 10:30 off Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth) and it was alot less busy than my previous Cambrian journies. I fear the Newtown bypass may be having an impact on traffic on the trains, unless people just haven't really taken up the new even-hour services yet.
The By-pass is making a difference of about 10 minutes during the day, up to 30 minutes during the "rush" hours but from my own experience the locals going further than Shrewsbury are still using the train.
 

Llanigraham

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The point is that it should not be one where it causes a significant operational disadvantage - it certainly does and has for the Cambrian.

As someone who has sat in Mach SSC and has used the system, under tuition, and who has friends who have been involved with ERTMS since it's inception I would suggest that your idea above is very incorrect.
 

Llanigraham

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Regarding the ERTMS under solebar, there’s just an ECTS doppler radar just in front of the front bogie and a balise reader just behind the front bogie (both ends of course). The rest of the equipment is the massive cupboard as shown by @craigybagel , the ERTMS screen in the cab, an isolation switch and a reset button. There’s also 1 or 2 transmitters/receivers on the roof but I can’t find the notes for the full system anywhere so I can’t confirm them.

Just a note about ERTMS, it can’t be switched off. It can only be isolated if it’s broke and preventing the train from moving. It then has to come out of service. Network rail won’t allow us to deactivate it when not running on lines not fitted with that signalling type. Which is a major pain for us drivers shunting them about at the depots. Some can take 5 minutes to boot up if they fail the first time.

Given these were designed nearly 10 years ago. If they were designed today, would they take up nearly as much room? Pretty sure the computer power needed could fit in an iPhone these days? No? (I’ve never seen inside the massive cupboard, they won’t let us near it! (Probably for the best to be fair))

And going passed Woofferton Junct Box at certain times of the day when some spurious (Presumed to be MOD) radio transmission brings the train to a stop. It also happened by the level crossing just out of Aber Station for a while until they worked out where the spurious transmission was coming from. That was also MOD based.
 

krus_aragon

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Given these were designed nearly 10 years ago. If they were designed today, would they take up nearly as much room? Pretty sure the computer power needed could fit in an iPhone these days? No? (I’ve never seen inside the massive cupboard, they won’t let us near it! (Probably for the best to be fair))
Based on the width of the cupboard, I reckon that it consists of several (relatively) off-the-shelf components mounted in an industry-standard 19-inch wide rack: a sensible approach for the first in-service implementation of modern tech retrofitted into an existing vehicle. The techies will have wanted to be able to plug into and monitor individual components during the testing, so a full-height cupboard in the passenger space will have made sense.

As well as miniaturisation, the CAF Civity will be built with space for the ERTMS system, and it'll be designed to be integrated with, as opposed to bolted in alongside, the conventional equipment. I'd guess that the equipment will only need space as large as a tea chest (at most) this time, which will be easier to distribute in the space under the solebar.
 

whhistle

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I will applaud your foresight when the new units have teething troubles! :D
* Slow clap... * :p
Forum needs like button.


Might have been said before, will the new trains be ERTMS capable?
Does this mean other operator models will also have the physical spaces and such for ERTMS?
 

krus_aragon

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Might have been said before, will the new trains be ERTMS capable?
Does this mean other operator models will also have the physical spaces and such for ERTMS?
I think all new stock now has to have provision for ERTMS to be fitted. For the TfW Civity fleet, they'll all be capable, but only a subsection of the fleet (for the Cambrian) will actually be fitted with ERTMS.
 

hexagon789

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* Slow clap... * :p
Forum needs like button.


Might have been said before, will the new trains be ERTMS capable?
Does this mean other operator models will also have the physical spaces and such for ERTMS?

They'll have space for provision, though won't all be fitted which is a bit lacking in foresight but there you go...
 

krus_aragon

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The like button was disabled years ago due to misuse (posts being liked due to being from "popular" people, rather than being liked for their content)
If that was the case, then it was a long time ago, before my time here at least.

There was an accidental appearance of a like button at the last upgrade of the forum software in 2017, when it wasn't fully disabled at first. It was fixed within a day or so.

For further reading on why there isn't a like button, see these threads.
 

craigybagel

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And going passed Woofferton Junct Box at certain times of the day when some spurious (Presumed to be MOD) radio transmission brings the train to a stop. It also happened by the level crossing just out of Aber Station for a while until they worked out where the spurious transmission was coming from. That was also MOD based.

And rather annoyingly, given that 158s are only booked to pass twice a day on a weekday, one of those times is when 1W76 passes by - 2017 Cardiff - Manchester, booked for a 158.....
 

Llanigraham

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And rather annoyingly, given that 158s are only booked to pass twice a day on a weekday, one of those times is when 1W76 passes by - 2017 Cardiff - Manchester, booked for a 158.....

It got to the stage where Woofferton Box didn't bother to ring me to explain why it had been "delayed in section", it was happening so often.

The situation at Aber, coming out of the station, was solved by my friend talking to someone at MoD, and finding where the radio signal came from, and the fact that it was being reflected off another building near-by. Cured by simply moving the antenna 6" to the other side of the pole!
 

squizzler

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If sufficiently down-sizeable - couldn't plug-in ECTS be developed?

A reasonably well heeled bicycle rider can now get a small gadget that mounts on the handlebar (plus sensors) that will chart your entire trip complete with road speed, heart rate, power output, calories burnt and all the rest. Back in the steam age you needed a dynamometer car to tell you that: an entire coach with its compliment of technicians.

So yes, I am sure an ETCS installation can be made a lot smaller than described.
 

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