CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[507021]

Too he fair the north of England gets way more new stock than say the southwest. I'm sure passengers down here would sooner have a 175 rather than a clapped out 150. The north has been relatively lucky .

I won't argue there. Hopefully the South West gets some new diesel stock in the next franchise period.

 

[Energy]

I won't argue there. Hopefully the South West gets some new diesel stock in the next franchise period.

Many places can go from old rolling stock to large amounts brand new with a franchise change, GWR went from old stock to lots of it being new.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Errr...class 175?

The class 175s were 3 years old before they were part of ATW fleet, so try again on when a Welsh franchise actually had new out of the box trains?

 

[Neptune]

That’s because an all Wales franchise didn’t exist until the 175’s were 3 years old.

The 175’s were built for First North Western for services in North Wales as well as North West England. When ATW was formed in 2003 around 9 of the 27 175’s were sub leased to FNW then TPE for North West England services until the 185’s arrived to allow all 175’s to transfer to ATW services.

 

[jamiearmley]

Amazingly, and sadly, more than a few passengers have expressed to me the view that the new class 195 stock, if you shut your eyes and just listen and feel, is remarkably similar to a pacer. Especially when it's raining . The North, and Wales, deserves better than this.

 

[37424]

The class 175s were 3 years old before they were part of ATW fleet, so try again on when a Welsh franchise actually had new out of the box trains?

So they were new to North Wales before the franchise was formed does it really matter?

Going forward I don't think the Welsh have got anything to moan about, it got brand new Intercity trains for South Wales, its getting brand new Intercity trains for North Wales, its Pacer fleet were largely restricted to fairly short distance commuter routes, unlike Northern where Pacer could frequently turn up on long distance services, it getting virtually complete fleet renewal and getting rid of 158's and 175's while the Northern Franchise gets cascaded 150/156/158 to be regarded as an improvement.

 

[hexagon789]

I suspect that Welsh travellers will be so shocked to have brand new stock for once that they'll be very forgiving of any minor blemishes. Wales, along with the north of England, has been at the bottom end of every single cascade going and have had put up with crap for so long that people will be grateful for small mercies.

The 175s aren't exactly ancient

And I'm not sure it's age per se, if older stock is refurbished and well maintained I doubt most passengers would notice

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 175s aren't exactly ancient

And I'm not sure it's age per se, if older stock is refurbished and well maintained I doubt most passengers would notice

The Welsh 158 interior is particularly nice. Premium seats and a reasonable colour scheme. I prefer the ScotRail Inverness ones but not by much.

 

[hexagon789]

The Welsh 158 interior is particularly nice. Premium seats and a reasonable colour scheme. I prefer the ScotRail Inverness ones but not by much.

I would agree, and it shows that given the right interior any train can be a pleasant travelling environment irrespective of age if maintained well to a point.

These 197s may be all shiny and new but if the interiors are poorer quality than what they replace then the passenger gains nothing.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I suspect that Welsh travellers will be so shocked to have brand new stock for once that they'll be very forgiving of any minor blemishes. Wales, along with the north of England, has been at the bottom end of every single cascade going and have had put up with crap for so long that people will be grateful for small mercies.

158s and 175s are hardly 'crap'.

The 175s aren't exactly ancient

And I'm not sure it's age per se, if older stock is refurbished and well maintained I doubt most passengers would notice

Soon after the 158s were refurbished by ATW I was travelling on one and overhead another passenger call it a new train. I think I read similar reports from others on the forum around the same time. A good refurb will fool many passengers into believing they are on a new train.

I would agree, and it shows that given the right interior any train can be a pleasant travelling environment irrespective of age if maintained well to a point.

These 197s may be all shiny and new but if the interiors are poorer quality than what they replace then the passenger gains nothing.

If the interiors are poorer quality then not only does the passenger gain nothing, they lose the previous better-quality trains.

what I do care about is the North and Wales finally getting the new, or decent quality second hand (such as 156s, 158s and 170s), rolling stock that passengers in those areas deserve. For far too long we've had to put up with the utterly diabolical Pacers and other dreadful trains, such as the 150s and 319s, which nobody else wants any more.

I agree that the 150s are pretty diabolical but I'd much rather the new Wales & Borders franchise had brought in decent quality second hand stock rather than the poor quality new stock that is incoming.

I don't think the Welsh have got anything to moan about, it got brand new Intercity trains for South Wales, its getting brand new Intercity trains for North Wales, its Pacer fleet were largely restricted to fairly short distance commuter routes, unlike Northern where Pacer could frequently turn up on long distance services, it getting virtually complete fleet renewal and getting rid of 158's and 175's while the Northern Franchise gets cascaded 150/156/158 to be regarded as an improvement.

Yes, GWR and Avanti are bringing new intercity trains to Wales, and Northern generally have had it worse, but there is plenty to moan about on the Wales & Borders franchise. Class 150s (which except on jointed track aren't much better than the Welsh Pacers) have regularly been seen standing in for 158s and 175s on long-distance services and have even had booked worked on journeys well over two hours (such as Fishguard to Cardiff). Also, in the early part of this year Pacers returned to Pembrokeshire - Swansea services to provide more 150s for the valleys. "getting rid of 158's and 175's" is also well worth a moan given that the new Civity stock is inferior and even if it wasn't keeping the 175s to provide enough stock to put on new services (such as Swansea - Bristol) would have been nice.

 

[507021]

158s and 175s are hardly 'crap'.Soon after the 158s were refurbished by ATW I was travelling on one and overhead another passenger call it a new train. I think I read similar reports from others on the forum around the same time. A good refurb will fool many passengers into believing they are on a new train.

If the interiors are poorer quality then not only does the passenger gain nothing, they lose the previous better-quality trains.

I agree that the 150s are pretty diabolical but I'd much rather the new Wales & Borders franchise had brought in decent quality second hand stock rather than the poor quality new stock that is incoming.

Yes, GWR and Avanti are bringing new intercity trains to Wales, and Northern generally have had it worse, but there is plenty to moan about on the Wales & Borders franchise. Class 150s (which except on jointed track aren't much better than the Welsh Pacers) have regularly been seen standing in for 158s and 175s on long-distance services and have even had booked worked on journeys well over two hours (such as Fishguard to Cardiff). Also, in the early part of this year Pacers returned to Pembrokeshire - Swansea services to provide more 150s for the valleys. "getting rid of 158's and 175's" is also well worth a moan given that the new Civity stock is inferior and even if it wasn't keeping the 175s to provide enough stock to put on new services (such as Swansea - Bristol) would have been nice.

I think it's a bit premature to suggest the 197s will be poor before a single unit's even been built. CAF may well have ironed out the poor ride quality issue by then.

However, if you'd rather have second hand stock, I'm sure Northern passengers would happily have the 197s in place of the 150s.

 

[jamiearmley]

I think it's a bit premature to suggest the 197s will be poor before a single unit's even been built. CAF may well have ironed out the poor ride quality issue by then.

However, if you'd rather have second hand stock, I'm sure Northern passengers would happily have the 197s in place of the 150s.

Isn't the poor ride quality by design? I heard some wibble at some point which suggested that the ride quality was rough to ensure a good wheel/ rail connection, in order to save money by not having TCA (track circuit actuator) equipment fitted to the units. I am not pronouncing this : merely stating something I have heard. Does anyone who knows, know?

 

[507021]

Isn't the poor ride quality by design? I heard some wibble at some point which suggested that the ride quality was rough to ensure a good wheel/ rail connection, in order to save money by not having TCA (track circuit actuator) equipment fitted to the units. I am not pronouncing this : merely stating something I have heard. Does anyone who knows, know?

I don't know to be honest, I'm sure somebody will be able to clarify though.

 

[hexagon789]

Soon after the 158s were refurbished by ATW I was travelling on one and overhead another passenger call it a new train. I think I read similar reports from others on the forum around the same time. A good refurb will fool many passengers into believing they are on a new train.

Exactly - it's the substance that counts

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think it's a bit premature to suggest the 197s will be poor before a single unit's even been built. CAF may well have ironed out the poor ride quality issue by then.

However, if you'd rather have second hand stock, I'm sure Northern passengers would happily have the 197s in place of the 150s.

I don't think I was suggesting that the 197s would have poor ride quality, just that they are poor quality trains (although I would be surprised if there is much difference in the underframes/bogies between 195/196/197 as it'll be cheaper to use the same design for all three). They may not have completed a unit yet but the choice of seat, number of toilets, number of table bays, seat pitch etc. is already known. In these respects the train is poor quality and inferior to the existing Wales & Borders long-distance fleet. I think I would rather have 197s in place of 150s (on diesel routes) too but the fact is on the Wales & Borders franchise 90% of the time (or more) the 197s would be running in place of 158s or 175s not 150s.

Isn't the poor ride quality by design? I heard some wibble at some point which suggested that the ride quality was rough to ensure a good wheel/ rail connection, in order to save money by not having TCA (track circuit actuator) equipment fitted to the units. I am not pronouncing this : merely stating something I have heard. Does anyone who knows, know?

Interesting if true; if I recall correctly in Modern Railways Ian Walmsley has been blaming inferior ride quality on new stock (CAF in particular but also Desiro City versus older Desiros) simply on the move to lightweight (inside-frame) bogies and/or a failure to specify good ride quality.

 

[37424]

158s and 175s are hardly 'crap'.Soon after the 158s were refurbished by ATW I was travelling on one and overhead another passenger call it a new train. I think I read similar reports from others on the forum around the same time. A good refurb will fool many passengers into believing they are on a new train.

If the interiors are poorer quality then not only does the passenger gain nothing, they lose the previous better-quality trains.

I agree that the 150s are pretty diabolical but I'd much rather the new Wales & Borders franchise had brought in decent quality second hand stock rather than the poor quality new stock that is incoming.

Yes, GWR and Avanti are bringing new intercity trains to Wales, and Northern generally have had it worse, but there is plenty to moan about on the Wales & Borders franchise. Class 150s (which except on jointed track aren't much better than the Welsh Pacers) have regularly been seen standing in for 158s and 175s on long-distance services and have even had booked worked on journeys well over two hours (such as Fishguard to Cardiff). Also, in the early part of this year Pacers returned to Pembrokeshire - Swansea services to provide more 150s for the valleys. "getting rid of 158's and 175's" is also well worth a moan given that the new Civity stock is inferior and even if it wasn't keeping the 175s to provide enough stock to put on new services (such as Swansea - Bristol) would have been nice.

There maybe some argument for retaining the 175's on the Holyhead/Manchester-South Wales route but as they intend to run paired units the lack of corridor connection between would be a bit of a disadvantage. As for 158's they are now getting to the age where really replacements should be considered.

As for the ride quality on the 195's I had a few trips on them before lockdown I though the ride quality was generally ok but does seem to vary between carriages, which also seems to be the case on the TPE Mk5's.

 

[Rhydgaled]

There maybe some argument for retaining the 175's on the Holyhead/Manchester-South Wales route but as they intend to run paired units the lack of corridor connection between would be a bit of a disadvantage. As for 158's they are now getting to the age where really replacements should be considered.

The lack of corridor connections on the 175s is a problem granted but then so is the lack of a toilet in one driving vehicle of each 197. Holyhead-Cardiff is unlikely to be doubled-up so 175s would be ok there meaning the big problem is Manchester-Swansea. Personally I think doubling up 175s on Manchester-Swansea is the lesser of two evils compared with putting 197s on such a long run but without corridor connections I wouldn't want portion working so they would need to terminate at Swansea. The issue then becomes how to maintain Carmarthen-Cardiff services given that the Manchesters wouldn't be doing that. As for the 158s, it appears that many of the 150s are likely to see their 40th birthdays so why not 158s too? They are far better suited to the Cambrian than the 197s and allowing them to run until they are 40 would give time to electrify Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury and procure a new fleet of bi-modes for the Cambrian to replace the 158s around 2030.

 

[stuu]

Too he fair the north of England gets way more new stock than say the southwest. I'm sure passengers down here would sooner have a 175 rather than a clapped out 150. The north has been relatively lucky .

The HSTs were brand new, the 150s were brand new (mostly), even the Pacers were new. And the voyagers and 158s/159s, not to mention the 800s.

The DMUs need replacing soon as part of the normal lifecycle, but that's not the same as never get any new stock. What in particular were you thinking of?

 

[Doveymain158]

The lack of corridor connections on the 175s is a problem granted but then so is the lack of a toilet in one driving vehicle of each 197. Holyhead-Cardiff is unlikely to be doubled-up so 175s would be ok there meaning the big problem is Manchester-Swansea. Personally I think doubling up 175s on Manchester-Swansea is the lesser of two evils compared with putting 197s on such a long run but without corridor connections I wouldn't want portion working so they would need to terminate at Swansea. The issue then becomes how to maintain Carmarthen-Cardiff services given that the Manchesters wouldn't be doing that. As for the 158s, it appears that many of the 150s are likely to see their 40th birthdays so why not 158s too? They are far better suited to the Cambrian than the 197s and allowing them to run until they are 40 would give time to electrify Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury and procure a new fleet of bi-modes for the Cambrian to replace the 158s around 2030.

Bi-modes are good idea but the Cambrian has portion working Aberystwyth/Pwllheli so they would need to be shorter than a 3-car stadler flirt due to platform lengths on the Cambrian coast

 

[37057]

Isn't the poor ride quality by design? I heard some wibble at some point which suggested that the ride quality was rough to ensure a good wheel/ rail connection, in order to save money by not having TCA (track circuit actuator) equipment fitted to the units. I am not pronouncing this : merely stating something I have heard. Does anyone who knows, know?

A quick google image search of 195/197 shows that these units are clearly fitted with TCA aerials.

Of topic note... I've noticed the 769s have also been fitted with the system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bi-modes are good idea but the Cambrian has portion working Aberystwyth/Pwllheli so they would need to be shorter than a 3-car stadler flirt due to platform lengths on the Cambrian coast

2 cars are often insufficient on the Coast, so I'd welcome modifications allowing 3 or even 4-car operation. Are any locations not SDO-feasible, particularly if you allowed the cab to stop off the platform at relevant locations?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Bi-modes are good idea but the Cambrian has portion working Aberystwyth/Pwllheli so they would need to be shorter than a 3-car stadler flirt due to platform lengths on the Cambrian coast

I think some platforms are local-door only with the 158s anyway so trains longer than the platform shouldn't be a problem, I can't recall any of the passing loop stations having particularly short platforms although I'm not entirely sure on that. Personally I think the Cambrian fleet should be a mix of 2-car and 3-car bi-modes with gangwayed cabs similar to the 197, one toilet per carriage, the same seats as the current 158s (or original 158 seats if you can get them) and the same seat pitch as a 175. Exterior doors would be similar to a 175 or 397 (ie. NOT the double-width doors on the 197s which waste space that could be used for more legroom, tables and toilets) with one positioned near one end of the vehicle (with standard toilet and bicycle space beyond, like on a 158). The other exterior door would be either right at the other end or 1/3 to 1/2 of a vehicle length from the other end WITH internal doors seperating the vestibles from the saloons.

2 cars are often insufficient on the Coast, so I'd welcome modifications allowing 3 or even 4-car operation. Are any locations not SDO-feasible, particularly if you allowed the cab to stop off the platform at relevant locations?

I'm sure 2-car units are insufficient on many days during the summer and perhaps around Easter but for the other eight months of the year would a 3-car be 'carting fresh air'? I forget whether the class 158s currently used have SDO beyond the guard's local door, something like I think the Great Western IC125s had (where all doors in front or behind a particular point can be unlocked) would be very useful but I'm not sure about whether there are any locations where this could not be used.

 

[Meole]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales.../mid_wales&link_location=live-reporting-story

[/URL]

Configuration changes requested again.

 

[PHILIPE]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales.../mid_wales&link_location=live-reporting-story

[/URL]

Configuration changes requested again.

TFW have merely referred to other new trains rather that answer the question direct and, although in regard to toilets again, they say the CET Tanks will last 2 days, but haven't said what would be done in the case of a fault or a toilet becoming blocked up

 

[jamiearmley]

TFW have merely referred to other new trains rather that answer the question direct and, although in regard to toilets again, they say the CET Tanks will last 2 days, but haven't said what would be done in the case of a fault or a toilet becoming blocked up

And as previously stated, the toilet being out of service is the default state on the 195/331 units. No reason to suppose these will be any different.

 

[krus_aragon]

The class 175s were 3 years old before they were part of ATW fleet, so try again on when a Welsh franchise actually had new out of the box trains?

The trouble is, if you exclude First North Western (who operated the 175s in North Wales from new) because they weren't an exclusively Welsh franchise, that only leaves two Welsh franchises prior to this one: Arriva Trains Wales, and the old Valley Lines franchise. It's not a very big sample size...

 

[507021]

The trouble is, if you exclude First North Western (who operated the 175s in North Wales from new) because they weren't an exclusively Welsh franchise, that only leaves two Welsh franchises prior to this one: Arriva Trains Wales, and the old Valley Lines franchise. It's not a very big sample size...

It's not, but I believe the last franchise did want to order new trains (Turbostars) but were not allowed to.

 

[py_megapixel]

Are these actually under construction yet?

Also it looks like they will only have one toilet as far as I can see. This is utterly unacceptable as they're going to be operating some of the longest routes TfW run. On the Cambrian it's very common for them to be OOU so I don't really understand why no improvement is being made to this.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Are these actually under construction yet?

Also it looks like they will only have one toilet as far as I can see. This is utterly unacceptable as they're going to be operating some of the longest routes TfW run. On the Cambrian it's very common for them to be OOU so I don't really understand why no improvement is being made to this.

Class 197s are (sadly) under construction yes. A photo of the first bodyshell in the factory in Spain was tweeted some months ago.

The spec for the new units is one toilet in each 2-car unit and two toilets in a 3-car unit. Thus, each unit will have one driving vehicle with no toilet. The 197s are of course intended to replace class 158s and class 175s, both of which have one toilet per carriage (ie. one more toilet per unit than the new trains).

I believe the longest route TfW run (in terms of journey time)*, is Birmingham to Pwllheli which is probably over 5 hours and TfW think a 2-car class 197 with only one toilet is a good idea. What are they on? Addmittedly they presumably plan to have a second 2-car unit attached between Machynlleth and Birmingham (the Aberystwyth portion) providing a second toilet but that will be a 4-car train with two toilets replacing today's 4-car train with four toilets. The seat:toilet ratio also falls short of the Rail Delivery Group's 'best practice' for 'long-distance' trains. The franchise annoucement refered to the CAF Civitys as 'long distance and rural DMUs' but they are 'long distance' only in that they are planned to operate long-distance services. They are not a particularly long-distance specification with fewer toilets and less table bays than the existing fleets (and less legroom than a class 175).

* with the possible exception of the Heart Of Wales to Cardiff services which nobody is likely to use throughout.

 

[py_megapixel]

The spec for the new units is one toilet in each 2-car unit and two toilets in a 3-car unit. Thus, each unit will have one driving vehicle with no toilet. The 197s are of course intended to replace class 158s and class 175s, both of which have one toilet per carriage (ie. one more toilet per unit than the new trains).

As you say, this is in my opinion absolute insanity and completely unnacceptable for a modern train fleet.

The longest service Greater Anglia's 755s will operate is slightly under 2 hours, and even they have two toilets. And even with two toilets on the current 158 formations they do tend to be out of use rather often. It is beyond me how TfW considers one toilet on a 5 hour journey to be acceptable.