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CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

craigybagel

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The main concern about toilets, to me, is that if there's only one it may be out of use. Though railway toilet availability seems to be better of late than it has been in the past.
The big issue with the toilets in the past was a lack of tanking facilities. In the days when only 175s had CET tanks these were only emptied at Chester or Canton. Units stabled anywhere else would have to enter service with partially full tanks.

Once the Pacers and the temporary 153s leave, every toileted unit in the fleet will have CET, and facilities are being upgraded to take that into account.


I'd argue that nearly all the proposed class 197 routes are 'regional express' expect perhaps Manchester-Swansea which, if anything, is more InterCity than most Holyhead-Cardiffs. While Craigybagel is right that very few will actually be doing Manchester to Milford or Birmingham-Pwllheli, Regional Express means, to me at least, that stops (on the 'express' part at least) are far enough apart that passengers should not be expected to stand. On the Cambrian for example, it's over 20 minutes from Shrewsbury to Welshpool, and nearer half an hour from Caersws to Machynlleth. If I had to guess, I'd suggest the average journey time on the Cambrian was at least 1 hour but I've no figures to back them up and anyway I don't really care what the average is. To me the fact that it is the best public transport available for journies considerably longer than 1 hour means comfort should be a massive priority.

With all due respect, how you or I or anyone else defines a service doesn't really come into it. But TfW have specified a train that will suit as many passengers as possible within their network, and that seems pretty sensible to me.

In any case - if you ask people to talk about "comfort" they're going to look at the seats, and external factors like air conditioning. And regardless of how you feel about the controversial Fainsa Sophia, it's going to be just as comfortable or uncomfortable wherever the doors are.
 
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Rhydgaled

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In any case - if you ask people to talk about "comfort" they're going to look at the seats, and external factors like air conditioning.
Yes, plus getting a seat at all and (if they're tall like me) possibly legroom. Both of these issues are effected by the allocation of more floor space to standing room, which if the train is long enough in the first place won't make anyone's journey more comfortable (unless they have very different feet to mine and are comfortable standing still, in which case they may prefer to do that than sit on a Sophia seat). They may also mention availability of toilets. They are, as you suggest, very unlikely to mention the doors. It took me a while to realise they impact they have on interiors, I used to think of classes 150-156 as basically the same - now I know different.
 

Envoy

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I note that Bristol > Cheltenham > Birmingham > Manchester is a proper Inter City Service yet Cardiff > Newport > Hereford > Shrewsbury > Crewe > Manchester is regarded as a ‘Regional Service’. Obviously Cardiff is a lower status city and can therefore have lower quality trains? Come to think of it, people from south Wales would use The Marches Line in order to reach all points north of Crewe as it is the shortest & quickest route to Scotland - so not just connecting with the City of Manchester. The only proper Inter City service that Cardiff & Newport have is that which goes to London. Oh, hang on, I just forgot, these cities do have another route with Inter City trains complete with restaurant - The Marches Line to north Wales to that high status City of Bangor and Holyhead.
 

craigybagel

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I note that Bristol > Cheltenham > Birmingham > Manchester is a proper Inter City Service yet Cardiff > Newport > Hereford > Shrewsbury > Crewe > Manchester is regarded as a ‘Regional Service’. Obviously Cardiff is a lower status city and can therefore have lower quality trains? Come to think of it, people from south Wales would use The Marches Line in order to reach all points north of Crewe as it is the shortest & quickest route to Scotland - so not just connecting with the City of Manchester. The only proper Inter City service that Cardiff & Newport have is that which goes to London. Oh, hang on, I just forgot, these cities do have another route with Inter City trains complete with restaurant - The Marches Line to north Wales to that high status City of Bangor and Holyhead.

Most people getting on these services at Cardiff or Newport aren't traveling to Manchester. I would suggest that more than half aren't going any further north than Hereford. It's not a dig at Wales saying they don't deserve InterCity trains - it's just the reality that on its own the Cardiff to Manchester market is pretty limited - these services are busy because of many overlapping shorter journeys along the route.
 

Envoy

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Most people getting on these services at Cardiff or Newport aren't traveling to Manchester. I would suggest that more than half aren't going any further north than Hereford. It's not a dig at Wales saying they don't deserve InterCity trains - it's just the reality that on its own the Cardiff to Manchester market is pretty limited - these services are busy because of many overlapping shorter journeys along the route.
Many thanks for that. Nothing like hearing from someone who has experience working the route. I just hope that the 197’s do indeed provide a good journey experience.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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Most people getting on these services at Cardiff or Newport aren't traveling to Manchester. I would suggest that more than half aren't going any further north than Hereford. It's not a dig at Wales saying they don't deserve InterCity trains - it's just the reality that on its own the Cardiff to Manchester market is pretty limited - these services are busy because of many overlapping shorter journeys along the route.

While that's undoubtedly true, a proportion of passengers will be travelling longer distances. The trick is always to get the right balance between different markets. Inevitably that involves compromises. There is no ideal solution. Personally it seems sensible to me to have central as well as end doors, given the level of peak time demand on stretches like Cardiff > Abergavenny and Shrewsbury > Chester. I'm not convinced they've got the seating lay out right though and the single toilet is a concern.

Having said that things like seating preferences can be pretty subjective things.
 

craigybagel

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Many thanks for that. Nothing like hearing from someone who has experience working the route. I just hope that the 197’s do indeed provide a good journey experience.

My pleasure. And I hope so too!

While that's undoubtedly true, a proportion of passengers will be travelling longer distances. The trick is always to get the right balance between different markets. Inevitably that involves compromises. There is no ideal solution. Personally it seems sensible to me to have central as well as end doors, given the level of peak time demand on stretches like Cardiff > Abergavenny and Shrewsbury > Chester. I'm not convinced they've got the seating lay out right though and the single toilet is a concern.

Having said that things like seating preferences can be pretty subjective things.
Indeed, the whole fleet really is a compromise. I think they've done a pretty good job of trying to cater for all the different markets, but it's going to be interesting to see how it pans out.
 

anamyd

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So to my knowledge we now have four photos from CAF/TfW depicting the bodyshells of the 197s - the two from February 2020, and now another two in December 2020 which Richard Clinnick of RAIL magazine tweeted.EoKmJdNXIAQ_TQb.jpegEoKmRKAXMAMu49Y.jpegEoKThfcVQAUOvvm.jpegEoKThfXVcAkMmCs.jpeg
. @tfwrail has released images of its new trains being built. This is the @CAFRail_UK Cl.197 DMU. More details in next @RAIL 920.
 

northernbelle

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A couple of interior images borrowed from the web.
 

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Bletchleyite

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If the embossed "T" hadn't been there you could be forgiven for thinking it was Greater Anglia moquette! :D;)

What it does show is that Abellio cheaped out rather than the "e-leather" being a fire regs issue, as it appears that TfW have gone with the e-leather headrests, which I think gives a very classy look (even if Fainsa Sophias are rubbish).

Also looks better without the utilitarian-looking dark blue ends that Northern have on theirs.
 

samuelmorris

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I actually don't mind the blue ends of 195s, they might be a bit dark but they're less dull than a lot of interiors partly as a result.
 

Domh245

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What it does show is that Abellio cheaped out rather than the "e-leather" being a fire regs issue, as it appears that TfW have gone with the e-leather headrests, which I think gives a very classy look (even if Fainsa Sophias are rubbish).

It's especially odd as the odd knee-blockers that have been fitted ot the 720s would appear to be finished in some sort of e-leather as well
 

Bletchleyite

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I actually don't mind the blue ends of 195s, they might be a bit dark but they're less dull than a lot of interiors partly as a result.

They're very Swiss in appearance (the EW IV coaches have one blue end and one red end, that was I think originally designed to differentiate smoking vs. non-smoking).

It's especially odd as the odd knee-blockers that have been fitted ot the 720s would appear to be finished in some sort of e-leather as well

Yes, that surprised me.
 
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Rhydgaled

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A couple of interior images borrowed from the web.
Interesting; I'd like to see more (and any associated text) if you can provide a link. It's hard to tell from those shots whether the seating layout has changed from the one that was doing the rounds a while back.

What's the attachment size limit on this forum? I was going to upload a copy of the seat plan but it's 5.96 MB
 

221101 Voyager

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Interesting; I'd like to see more (and any associated text) if you can provide a link. It's hard to tell from those shots whether the seating layout has changed from the one that was doing the rounds a while back.

What's the attachment size limit on this forum? I was going to upload a copy of the seat plan but it's 5.96 MB
I would keep attachments to a minimum as if we use up too much space on the forum they could start asking us to pay for the privilege of using the forum so be aware of that.
 

Rhydgaled

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Looks like these have the criticised Fainsa Sophia seats liken - I personally find them good but I know some others won't compared to the seats on the 175's.
Yes, Fainsa Sophias will be fitted to the 197s. The original spec (written by KeolisAmey I assume) was for Fainsa Comrail (Ironing Board) seats, but TfW paid extra to overrule that decision. I'm not sure if the Sophias will be an upgrade compared to the Ironing Boards though; and a massive downgrade compared to the IC3000 seats on the 158s (they could even have stripped 2nd hand IC3000 seats from GWR's off-lease mark 3s and still ended up with a better product).
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, Fainsa Sophias will be fitted to the 197s. The original spec (written by KeolisAmey I assume) was for Fainsa Comrail (Ironing Board) seats, but TfW paid extra to overrule that decision. I'm not sure if the Sophias will be an upgrade compared to the Ironing Boards though; and a massive downgrade compared to the IC3000 seats on the 158s (they could even have stripped 2nd hand IC3000 seats from GWR's off-lease mark 3s and still ended up with a better product).

I believe the intention was for the Northern style ironing board with the thicker contoured base cushion, which I find to be a very comfortable seat indeed (and because the back isn't very contoured it will suit many different body shapes. A lot of people who shout about ironing boards being bad probably haven't tried that variant, also used by ScotRail. The only thing I hate about the Sophia really is the too-thin base cushion, that said (otherwise it is really not that dissimilar to the excellent Grammer E3000 Desiro seat), so if they could fix that...
 

Rhydgaled

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I believe the intention was for the Northern style ironing board with the thicker contoured base cushion, which I find to be a very comfortable seat indeed (and because the back isn't very contoured it will suit many different body shapes. A lot of people who shout about ironing boards being bad probably haven't tried that variant, also used by ScotRail. The only thing I hate about the Sophia really is the too-thin base cushion, that said (otherwise it is really not that dissimilar to the excellent Grammer E3000 Desiro seat), so if they could fix that...
I've had short rides on a Northern 195, a ScotRail refurbished 156 and something around Cambridge (possibly a class 700, I remember waiting to board one but not much about what it was like inside). Didn't really like any of them and can't say I noticed a difference although, as I said, none were particularly long trips. After the relatively short refurb 156 trip (Glenfinnan to Mallaig if I recall correctly) I was glad the 156 I had back from Fort William to Glasgow was a non-refurb example.

Not had many trips on Desiros, but from what I remember the E3000 is nicer than a Fainsa Ironing Board but not a patch on ATW's version of the IC3000 (I know it's not much different to GWR's version, but I've always perfered it somehow).
 

Rhydgaled

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Sadly the WAG seem to be going for the easy life and allowing the 197s to undermine their new decarbonising transport strategy.
Are they? I don't think there's any sign that the lines they will operate on will be electrified any time even vaguely soon, and if they are (the North Wales Coast probably has the most chance) then they could be cascaded to another TOC to get rid of 15x.
Speaking at a Transport Focus board meeting in Jan, Ken Skates MS indicated that the Welsh Government want to see "very significant electrification" including the north and south Wales mainlines plus 'key routes within the Metro areas'. Meanwhile, the draft transport strategy says they will "work with the UK Government to imrove rail infrastructure across Wales including rolling out rail electrification schemes across Wales". Modal shift is also a key plank of the new strategy, this being a great quote "We want to grow public transport use in Wales by providing services that everyone can use, wants to use and does use." I cannot see many wanting to use the class 197s with their Sophia seats, reduced toilets and other downgrades in preference to their cars (or, if they do want to use the train, it will be in spite of the class 197's specification not because of it), thus the class 197s will be undermining this transport strategy.

The suggestion of cascading them elsewhere overlooks four problems. The first is that they won't multi with anything else (except perhaps 196s) so unless you find somewhere that needs all 77 units (good luck with that) you would be giving somebody an awkward sub-fleet. Second, cascading units around doesn't change the number of DMUs left in Britain when we hit the net-zero deadline. Porterbrook's rule of thumb is that a train lasts 35 years and scrapping it early wastes carbon. That means all the Civity DMUs (161 of them if all are completed) could well still be with us in the first half of the 2050s. For a 50% chance of staying under 1.5 degrees of warming we need to hit net-zero by 2050, for a 66% chance we need to do it sometime in the back end of the 2030s. I'm assuming for a net-zero railway in 2050 Network Rail's TDNS needs to be fully implemented by then (the TDNS also warned against buying new DMUs, implying that any new diesels should be bi-mode). In order to deliver the full extent of electrification in the TDNS while minimising diesel under the wires I have estimated that we need to be down to under 100 DMUs before 2050 (the vast majority of unwired routes require bi-mode stock in the TDNS).

Even if I've got that wrong, the poor interior specification also works against any cascade. The routes that struggle to justify OHLE are typically long-distance ones where something like a 175 or 158 is much more appropriate. The Civity DMUs would make good replacements for 150s, but once TfW have scrapped theirs there will only be 48 150/2s left and there are the 195s and 196s to consider as well. If WAG/TfW don't come to their senses but Northern does, the latter will snap up TfW's released 158s and 175s for the Northern Connect routes to free up 195s to allow them to drop most of the 150/1s.

The fourth problem is that whole route electrification isn't necessary the best way forward now that Hitachi and Stadler have brought bi-modes into service with a bi-mode Aventra also on the table. Of all the W&B network except perhaps more of the Cardiff Metro, I think Woverhampton-Shrewsbury is has a strong case to be next for electrification. Midlands Connect and/or Midlands Engine have been taking an interest, and there are at least three passenger trains per hour with a minimum of eight carriages between them (more if 4-car 196s are used). However, class 197s are diesel-mechanical and cannot make use of electrification which takes 1tph and four carriages off the business case. If the class 158s were kept until 2030 you could introduce new bi-modes then to take advantage of wires to Shrewsbury which by then I would hope would not be far off.

i can only see swansea-cardiff being electrified i believe Cardiff to Bristol is and the north wales main line
In what timeframe? The net-zero carbon deadline falls within the lifespan of the class 197s and the TDNS recommends not just the north and south Wales main lines but also Swansea to Carmarthen, the entire south east Wales metro except the Ebbw Vale branch (presumably because only 1tph right now) and Newport to Shrewsbury, Chester and Crewe. Even Carmarthen to Pembroke Dock / Milford Haven / Fishguard is recomended for wires, though this section is treated as borderline. If this isn't implemented then either the rail industry fails to decarbonise or the decarbonisation technology choosen is not the most cost/energy efficient according to Network Rail.
 

berneyarms

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Could the Class 197 fleet not be converted to hybrid technology like the diesel powered Iarnród Éireann ICR fleet is planned to in time (MTU hybrid power packs are to be fitted to them)?

I find it difficult to believe that this wouldn't be an option.

The technology is still in the development phase, but it would allow for lines to remain non-electrified where it is not warranted.
 

Bletchleyite

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Speaking at a Transport Focus board meeting in Jan, Ken Skates MS indicated that the Welsh Government want to see "very significant electrification" including the north and south Wales mainlines plus 'key routes within the Metro areas'. Meanwhile, the draft transport strategy says they will "work with the UK Government to imrove rail infrastructure across Wales including rolling out rail electrification schemes across Wales". Modal shift is also a key plank of the new strategy, this being a great quote "We want to grow public transport use in Wales by providing services that everyone can use, wants to use and does use." I cannot see many wanting to use the class 197s with their Sophia seats, reduced toilets and other downgrades in preference to their cars (or, if they do want to use the train, it will be in spite of the class 197's specification not because of it), thus the class 197s will be undermining this transport strategy.

I agree the proposed interiors are a bit rubbish, though the popularity of the Northern 195s (which are the same bodyshell, bar the gangway) would suggest that the unit can be made good and isn't fundamentally rubbish.

As to whether the Welsh Government may or may not want to see more electrification, I want to see a high frequency fast service from Bletchley to Euston but that doesn't mean there will be one. Unless the WG open their wallets, it's very unlikely to go beyond Swansea and maybe the North Wales Coast any time in the next 20 years or so at least.

The suggestion of cascading them elsewhere overlooks four problems. The first is that they won't multi with anything else (except perhaps 196s) so unless you find somewhere that needs all 77 units (good luck with that)

Northern, the long-term home of 15x and the near-identical Class 195 fleet.

Second, cascading units around doesn't change the number of DMUs left in Britain when we hit the net-zero deadline. Porterbrook's rule of thumb is that a train lasts 35 years and scrapping it early wastes carbon. That means all the Civity DMUs (161 of them if all are completed) could well still be with us in the first half of the 2050s. For a 50% chance of staying under 1.5 degrees of warming we need to hit net-zero by 2050, for a 66% chance we need to do it sometime in the back end of the 2030s. I'm assuming for a net-zero railway in 2050 Network Rail's TDNS needs to be fully implemented by then (the TDNS also warned against buying new DMUs, implying that any new diesels should be bi-mode). In order to deliver the full extent of electrification in the TDNS while minimising diesel under the wires I have estimated that we need to be down to under 100 DMUs before 2050 (the vast majority of unwired routes require bi-mode stock in the TDNS).

That's the ideal but it won't happen. As the target is net zero I suspect they will do it by planting trees. You gain far more by dealing with the domestic heating and private car issue anyway, though that the railway would go from being nominally environmentally friendly to nominally environmentally unfriendly could be an issue, of course, which would be a threat to its future.

Even if I've got that wrong, the poor interior specification also works against any cascade.

It doesn't, because even the low-spec interior proposed is better than Class 150 (Northern has 80 units), 153 (Northern has 18 sets), 155 (Northern has 7 sets) and perhaps more debatably 156 (Northern has 47 sets). So even if you ignore the 158s that's 152 sets needing replacing. If you consider that electrification will reduce the requirement further, that's still a TOC that has space for all the Welsh fleet.

Certainly they are are of poor spec when it comes to long-distance regional expresses where a lot of people travel the full route - for instance Brum Int to Aber is over 3 hours and Pwllheli about 4 - though that again doesn't make the unit itself unsuitable, as fitted with a second bog, in 3 rather than 2-car formations and with a more Northern-like seat layout with more tables they'd be just fine. But the interior would be luxury for Manchester area commuters or the Lancashire branch lines when you consider that the standard fare was Pacers until a few months ago and is now the barely-much-better Class 150.

The routes that struggle to justify OHLE are typically long-distance ones where something like a 175 or 158 is much more appropriate.

I don't think the bodyshell makes a jot of difference, really - that's heading into door position prejudice, for which I don't have a lot of time, really. 170s would be absolutely spot-on for all the Welsh services presently operated by 158s, and were fine on Scottish long distance regional express services as well other than being too short. If you (say) fitted Grammer IC3000s or FISA LEANs and aligned them with the windows and fitted a second bog it'd be spot-on.

The Civity DMUs would make good replacements for 150s, but once TfW have scrapped theirs there will only be 48 150/2s left and there are the 195s and 196s to consider as well. If WAG/TfW don't come to their senses but Northern does, the latter will snap up TfW's released 158s and 175s for the Northern Connect routes to free up 195s to allow them to drop most of the 150/1s.

They might well do that but that still leaves 72 units to replace, and that's before you even look at the 158s (43 units) which while they look modern (as they were very much ahead of their time when built) are getting on somewhat in years.

The fourth problem is that whole route electrification isn't necessary the best way forward now that Hitachi and Stadler have brought bi-modes into service with a bi-mode Aventra also on the table. Of all the W&B network except perhaps more of the Cardiff Metro, I think Woverhampton-Shrewsbury is has a strong case to be next for electrification. Midlands Connect and/or Midlands Engine have been taking an interest, and there are at least three passenger trains per hour with a minimum of eight carriages between them (more if 4-car 196s are used). However, class 197s are diesel-mechanical and cannot make use of electrification which takes 1tph and four carriages off the business case. If the class 158s were kept until 2030 you could introduce new bi-modes then to take advantage of wires to Shrewsbury which by then I would hope would not be far off.

To do that doesn't require Class 158s to be used. That premise ignores the possibility of a cascade.

Could the Class 197 fleet not be converted to hybrid technology like the diesel powered Iarnród Éireann ICR fleet is planned to in time (MTU hybrid power packs are to be fitted to them)?

I find it difficult to believe that this wouldn't be an option.

If you can design something that produces rotation at the required angular speed and torque to connect to the final drive, you can burn bionic duckweed or even coal if you want. With a modern bodyshell it is to me entirely feasible that they might have the diesel engines swapped for something else in time. It's not quite as simple as with an EMU, or just coupling a different locomotive to a set of coaches, I'll give you, but to suggest it's impossible is just being short-sighted. If there's a market for it, someone will find a way to do it and make a profit from it. Crikey, at a push you could even remove the engines entirely and couple a bionic duckweed-powered steam locomotive on one end.
 

craigybagel

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I agree the proposed interiors are a bit rubbish, though the popularity of the Northern 195s (which are the same bodyshell, bar the gangway) would suggest that the unit can be made good and isn't fundamentally rubbish.

As to whether the Welsh Government may or may not want to see more electrification, I want to see a high frequency fast service from Bletchley to Euston but that doesn't mean there will be one. Unless the WG open their wallets, it's very unlikely to go beyond Swansea and maybe the North Wales Coast any time in the next 20 years or so at least.



Northern, the long-term home of 15x and the near-identical Class 195 fleet.



That's the ideal but it won't happen. As the target is net zero I suspect they will do it by planting trees. You gain far more by dealing with the domestic heating and private car issue anyway, though that the railway would go from being nominally environmentally friendly to nominally environmentally unfriendly could be an issue, of course, which would be a threat to its future.



It doesn't, because even the low-spec interior proposed is better than Class 150 (Northern has 80 units), 153 (Northern has 18 sets), 155 (Northern has 7 sets) and perhaps more debatably 156 (Northern has 47 sets). So even if you ignore the 158s that's 152 sets needing replacing. If you consider that electrification will reduce the requirement further, that's still a TOC that has space for all the Welsh fleet.

Certainly they are are of poor spec when it comes to long-distance regional expresses where a lot of people travel the full route - for instance Brum Int to Aber is over 3 hours and Pwllheli about 4 - though that again doesn't make the unit itself unsuitable, as fitted with a second bog, in 3 rather than 2-car formations and with a more Northern-like seat layout with more tables they'd be just fine. But the interior would be luxury for Manchester area commuters or the Lancashire branch lines when you consider that the standard fare was Pacers until a few months ago and is now the barely-much-better Class 150.



I don't think the bodyshell makes a jot of difference, really - that's heading into door position prejudice, for which I don't have a lot of time, really. 170s would be absolutely spot-on for all the Welsh services presently operated by 158s, and were fine on Scottish long distance regional express services as well other than being too short. If you (say) fitted Grammer IC3000s or FISA LEANs and aligned them with the windows and fitted a second bog it'd be spot-on.



They might well do that but that still leaves 72 units to replace, and that's before you even look at the 158s (43 units) which while they look modern (as they were very much ahead of their time when built) are getting on somewhat in years.



To do that doesn't require Class 158s to be used. That premise ignores the possibility of a cascade.



If you can design something that produces rotation at the required angular speed and torque to connect to the final drive, you can burn bionic duckweed or even coal if you want. With a modern bodyshell it is to me entirely feasible that they might have the diesel engines swapped for something else in time. It's not quite as simple as with an EMU, or just coupling a different locomotive to a set of coaches, I'll give you, but to suggest it's impossible is just being short-sighted. If there's a market for it, someone will find a way to do it and make a profit from it. Crikey, at a push you could even remove the engines entirely and couple a bionic duckweed-powered steam locomotive on one end.
I'm so grateful Bletchleyite has left such a comprehensive reply here, it's saved me a lot of time!

Large scale electrification isn't coming to Wales any time soon, regardless of what the WAG or anyone else wants. The money just isn't there, and if even if there was there are so many other projects across the UK that would have a much more beneficial impact, both in terms of emissions and customer experience.
 

Energy

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Large scale electrification isn't coming to Wales any time soon, regardless of what the WAG or anyone else wants. The money just isn't there, and if even if there was there are so many other projects across the UK that would have a much more beneficial impact, both in terms of emissions and customer experience.
Agreed, lots of Wales is quiet enough to make it low priority. The MML, Chiltern and other WMR bits, ECML to Hull and more are going to be higher priority.
 

Rhydgaled

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Could the Class 197 fleet not be converted to hybrid technology like the diesel powered Iarnród Éireann ICR fleet is planned to in time (MTU hybrid power packs are to be fitted to them)?

I find it difficult to believe that this wouldn't be an option.

The technology is still in the development phase, but it would allow for lines to remain non-electrified where it is not warranted.
I'm sure the class 197s could be converted to hybrid technology, after all the 230s for Wrexham-Bidston are already hybrids with a prototype retro-fit to be done on a 165, a 168 and an 802. However, a hybrid still would not be able to make use of the electrification that already exists (eg. Crewe-Manchester and Wolverhampton-Birmingham) or future extensions (eg. Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury). For that you need a bi-mode and if that's what you wanted you wouldn't start with a 197. Mechanical transmission works against it and apparently one of the problems with Project Thor was that Voyagers (which are one step closer to bi-mode than a 197 by virtue of being diesel-electric) have no means of sharing traction power between vehicles. If one engine on a Voyager is out the traction motor(s) on that coach are dead; you cannot power the motors from the engine on an adjacent coach. Sure they could have added traction power cabling between vehicles, but it was a big enough problem that it didn't happen.

I agree the proposed interiors are a bit rubbish, though the popularity of the Northern 195s (which are the same bodyshell, bar the gangway) would suggest that the unit can be made good and isn't fundamentally rubbish.
Popularity? Really? No backlash from ironing board seats and scant toilet provision? If you ask me the 195s are even worse than 197s, if it wasn't for the embedded carbon instead of saying cancel the 197s I would be saying send them to Northern and scrap the 195s. If people actually want to use 195s then maybe car makers should start putting blocks of wood in instead of padded seats.

As to whether the Welsh Government may or may not want to see more electrification, I want to see a high frequency fast service from Bletchley to Euston but that doesn't mean there will be one. Unless the WG open their wallets, it's very unlikely to go beyond Swansea and maybe the North Wales Coast any time in the next 20 years or so at least.
So, in other words, you consider electrification between Cardiff and Swansea to be very much a possiblity within 20 years? And in the 15 years after that, when 197s will still be around? I wouldn't expect wires beyond Swansea (or maybe Llanelli if a Swansea metro happens) before 2040 either, but after 2040 that could change, if we had trains capable of taking advantage.

Northern, the long-term home of 15x and the near-identical Class 195 fleet.
Even if I count the TfW units, which I expect will be scrapped once the metro fleets are in service, there are only 136 class 150s, only two of which are 3-car (so 274 vehicles total). For the Civity DMUs we have Class 195: 149 vehicles, Class 196: 80 vehicles, Class 197: 180 vehicles. That adds up to 409 vehicles, or 329 if you leave the Snow Hill Lines diesel-worked with 196s.

That's the ideal but it won't happen. As the target is net zero I suspect they will do it by planting trees. You gain far more by dealing with the domestic heating and private car issue anyway, though that the railway would go from being nominally environmentally friendly to nominally environmentally unfriendly could be an issue, of course, which would be a threat to its future.
The way I see it, having comfortable trains is an important part of dealing with the private car issue, by tempting people to switch to rail. I'm also worried that rail could become environmentally unfriendly due to failure to electrify, and keeping old diesels would focus minds on doing something about it unlike having nearly-new DMUs.

It doesn't, because even the low-spec interior proposed is better than Class 150 (Northern has 80 units), 153 (Northern has 18 sets), 155 (Northern has 7 sets) and perhaps more debatably 156 (Northern has 47 sets). So even if you ignore the 158s that's 152 sets needing replacing. If you consider that electrification will reduce the requirement further, that's still a TOC that has space for all the Welsh fleet.
Didn't the latest Arriva Northern promise the 153s would go in their franchise bid? Even so, I think a pair of 153s with one PRM and one non-PRM toilet would be superior to a Civity DMU in some respects.

Certainly they are are of poor spec when it comes to long-distance regional expresses where a lot of people travel the full route - for instance Brum Int to Aber is over 3 hours and Pwllheli about 4 - though that again doesn't make the unit itself unsuitable, as fitted with a second bog, in 3 rather than 2-car formations and with a more Northern-like seat layout with more tables they'd be just fine. But the interior would be luxury for Manchester area commuters or the Lancashire branch lines when you consider that the standard fare was Pacers until a few months ago and is now the barely-much-better Class 150.

I don't think the bodyshell makes a jot of difference, really - that's heading into door position prejudice, for which I don't have a lot of time, really. 170s would be absolutely spot-on for all the Welsh services presently operated by 158s, and were fine on Scottish long distance regional express services as well other than being too short. If you (say) fitted Grammer IC3000s or FISA LEANs and aligned them with the windows and fitted a second bog it'd be spot-on.
The 3-car 197s (which will have 2 toilets) still don't meet the Rail Delivery Group's recommendations. You need one toilet per carriage, which then means less seats, legroom and/or tables (which the 197 already compares poorly on vs 158s and 175s). The only way to solve the problem is to change the bodyshell, you don't need room for lots of standees on a long-distance service so the doors don't need to be so wide.

Large scale electrification isn't coming to Wales any time soon, regardless of what the WAG or anyone else wants. The money just isn't there, and if even if there was there are so many other projects across the UK that would have a much more beneficial impact, both in terms of emissions and customer experience.
It doesn't matter where electrification happens first, and I agree most of Wales will be a way down the list. The fact is 161 Civity DMUs is a barrier to completing Network Rail's recommended electrification programme by 2050.
 

RealTrains07

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Until any form of electrification is confirmed or even gets any sort of funding. DMU such as the 197s are the option we have in terms of modern DMU. This same electrification argument could be said about the 196s.

Hopefully TfW will come to their senses and try a bi mode conversion for the 197 fleet at some point? Surely that will have more chance at getting funding than electrification schemes?

I do agree that the 197s would have been better suited as a direct replacement for the 150s over the 175s and 158s though.
It doesn't, because even the low-spec interior proposed is better than Class 150 (Northern has 80 units), 153 (Northern has 18 sets), 155 (Northern has 7 sets) and perhaps more debatably 156 (Northern has 47 sets).


They might well do that but that still leaves 72 units to replace, and that's before you even look at the 158s (43 units) which while they look modern (as they were very much ahead of their time when built) are getting on somewhat in years.
The 153s are irrelevant for this argument as they will be gone soon once all the bi mode 769s are in. Which hopefully wont be too long.

158s arent as close to end of life compared to the 150s. The 150s should be the priority for replacing. They will hit 40 in 2024. 158s could easily run untill 2030.

Even if cascading was put on the cards, it wouldn’t work. The 195s cant work with the 197s because the couplers are positioned differently meaning less interoperability. Interoperability and flexibility is one of the few good things 15x type fleets have left going for them. Which i am sure will lead them to other plans in terms of replacement.

I agree the 197s may not be ideal for people (especially considering the trains they are replacing) but
their definitely is time for them to be improved in terms of layout and seating.
 

DB

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Even if cascading was put on the cards, it wouldn’t work. The 195s cant work with the 197s because the couplers are positioned differently meaning less interoperability. Interoperability and flexibility is one of the few good things 15x type fleets have left going for them. Which i am sure will lead them to other plans in terms of replacement.

That happens across the board - there should be a common standard. However, it's not necessarily a block on it happening as many TOC have units which are all incompatible with each other - e.g. TPE which has four fleets, none of which can work together (one is loco-hauled so a different situation). Northern's newer fleets are also all mutually incompatible with each other.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm sure the class 197s could be converted to hybrid technology, after all the 230s for Wrexham-Bidston are already hybrids with a prototype retro-fit to be done on a 165, a 168 and an 802. However, a hybrid still would not be able to make use of the electrification that already exists (eg. Crewe-Manchester and Wolverhampton-Birmingham) or future extensions (eg. Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury). For that you need a bi-mode and if that's what you wanted you wouldn't start with a 197. Mechanical transmission works against it and apparently one of the problems with Project Thor was that Voyagers (which are one step closer to bi-mode than a 197 by virtue of being diesel-electric) have no means of sharing traction power between vehicles. If one engine on a Voyager is out the traction motor(s) on that coach are dead; you cannot power the motors from the engine on an adjacent coach. Sure they could have added traction power cabling between vehicles, but it was a big enough problem that it didn't happen.

I suspect that if that had been the only problem they would have added cables. It's not exactly a difficult problem. Crikey, Pendolinos have a 25kV bus bar along most of the roofline, and this would be low(er) voltage. There were lots of issues with Project Thor which meant that building new Class 80x make more sense than doing it.

Voyagers were a first go at a 125mph InterCity DEMU. They made a lot of mistakes while being that, as a "first go" typically does, but fixing all of them would be too prohibitive.

Popularity? Really? No backlash from ironing board seats and scant toilet provision?

The only place I hear backlash against ironing board seats is on here, particularly given that the variant they used has a different (thicker and contoured) seat base and is thus nothing like the Thameslink one (say). It's actually a very comfortable seat (by modern standards) that by its simplicity suits people of lots of different shapes and sizes. To me it's vastly better than a Sophia (which is why I think TfW made the wrong choice there) though that's my opinion and not everyone agrees.

Most Northern routes are fairly short, and as such most people travelling on them don't use the toilet, though I'm conscious of them being out of order the newest design of module seems to be much more reliable than the older ones (which were mostly door faults). The longest routes these operate on are the Barrows and Windermeres, but most people aren't using them end to end. I do think they need a second toilet, particularly the Welsh ones, but really to condemn a whole unit to being rubbish solely on being a bog short (given that 158s are the only units Northern operate to have two) is a bit silly.

If you ask me the 195s are even worse than 197s, if it wasn't for the embedded carbon instead of saying cancel the 197s I would be saying send them to Northern and scrap the 195s. If people actually want to use 195s then maybe car makers should start putting blocks of wood in instead of padded seats.

It would be madness to scrap the 195s. While I would still describe them as "poor man's Turbostars" they are a vast improvement on just about everything else Northern have other than 158s, and they are much more suited to busy services than end-doored units. Emptying out a full-and-standing 158 takes well upwards of 5 minutes, it's like emptying out a full single-door double decker bus. Whereas a 195 loads and empties in seconds, easily as good as a 700 despite the massively more comfortable seating layout it has.

So, in other words, you consider electrification between Cardiff and Swansea to be very much a possiblity within 20 years? And in the 15 years after that, when 197s will still be around?

They'll be about 35 years old by then. No need to get hung up on "oh, but a train has to last 50 years" like people were with say the HEx units - it doesn't, 35 is perfectly respectable. Just because the Class 101s became depot pets and enthusiasts' obsessions doesn't mean every unit has to last that long.

The way I see it, having comfortable trains is an important part of dealing with the private car issue, by tempting people to switch to rail.

It is, and most people think they are comfortable (the 195s, I mean). The main objection is window alignment, but if you sit in the end section they are aligned, and about 50% of the seats in the middle section have a good view. Yes, it's a bit rubbish, but it's hugely better than no seats having a good view as per the 150/1.

I've heard quite few very positive comments about them. I can't recall them all, but I've certainly heard "wow, this is much nicer than the London train" from someone changing onto one at Lancaster - yes, comparing a cheapo DMU with a rather more expensive Pendolino.

Yes, OK, there's the Fainsa Sophia, but not everyone hates those. They aren't my most hated seat - the awful InterCity 70 gets that "accolade", and the collapsed Richmond seating on some of Northern's 156s hovers around there too. I do think TfW were sold a pup and should have stuck with the ironing boards, that said.

I'm also worried that rail could become environmentally unfriendly due to failure to electrify, and keeping old diesels would focus minds on doing something about it unlike having nearly-new DMUs.

I don't think it will make any difference at all. And when wires do go up, those DMUs can go and get rid of said old ones.

Didn't the latest Arriva Northern promise the 153s would go in their franchise bid? Even so, I think a pair of 153s with one PRM and one non-PRM toilet would be superior to a Civity DMU in some respects.

TfW are retaining some pairs of 153s for a bit (how long I don't know), one will have a PRM bog and one no bog.

The 3-car 197s (which will have 2 toilets) still don't meet the Rail Delivery Group's recommendations. You need one toilet per carriage

Do any 3-car UK trains have one toilet per carriage? I can't think of any. 2 in the unit is most common, one big and one small.

which then means less seats, legroom and/or tables (which the 197 already compares poorly on vs 158s and 175s). The only way to solve the problem is to change the bodyshell, you don't need room for lots of standees on a long-distance service so the doors don't need to be so wide.

Those wide doors will be an advantage on busy trains, particularly on the Cambrian Coast in summer. Though I do think they are being short-sighted by only fitting ETCS to the 2-car sets, they should fit it to all of them so 3-car units can be used up there (with ASDO if needed) in summer.

It doesn't matter where electrification happens first, and I agree most of Wales will be a way down the list. The fact is 161 Civity DMUs is a barrier to completing Network Rail's recommended electrification programme by 2050.

That is not a fact, it's your opinion, and with respect I completely disagree with it.

That happens across the board - there should be a common standard. However, it's not necessarily a block on it happening as many TOC have units which are all incompatible with each other - e.g. TPE which has four fleets, none of which can work together (one is loco-hauled so a different situation). Northern's newer fleets are also all mutually incompatible with each other.

If, as I suspect, making classes 195 and 197 compatible would just involve changing the actual coupler head, I'm sure that will be looked at. 170s have been swapped between Scharfenberg (Southern) and BSI (everyone else).
 

43096

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Voyagers were a first go at a 125mph InterCity DEMU. They made a lot of mistakes while being that, as a "first go" typically does, but fixing all of them would be too prohibitive.
Some would argue the first go was in 1976. ;)

Do any 3-car UK trains have one toilet per carriage? I can't think of any. 2 in the unit is most common, one big and one small.
Ummm, what about the very trains the 197s are replacing - don't the 3-car 175s have one toilet per car?
 

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