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CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

Topological

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Strong arguments for not using the current depot for the introduction of major new fleets:

Whilst they are ‘delayed’ The issue with having ETCS units doing other duties (as I understand it) is that the maintenance depot as Chester is already full to capacity (and currently struggling to keep enough regular 197’s in service each day), the ETCS 197’s will be based out of Machynlleth depot and that is needed to be free of 158’s to look after the 197’s.

Should have avoided renewing the entire fleet in one go. Leave the 175s and Alstom in place until the South Wales Metro fleet was running. Possibly should have tried to get some 180s - if anyone could make them reliable it was Alstom Chester.
Hopefully, there will be lessons learned. It is not as if there is a shortage of old industrial facilities, or even just old sidings, that could host depots.
 
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simonmpoulton

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Hopefully, there will be lessons learned. It is not as if there is a shortage of old industrial facilities, or even just old sidings, that could host depots.
We can only hope these lessons have been learned although I get the feeling that when it looks like there is an opportunity to save a few £ that these past lessons get quietly forgotten.

Also I find it a bit hard to believe that Machynlleth depot couldn't service both the 158's and the 197's - Chester managed to albeit poorly maintain the 175's and the 197's.
 

Bikeman78

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We can only hope these lessons have been learned although I get the feeling that when it looks like there is an opportunity to save a few £ that these past lessons get quietly forgotten.

Also I find it a bit hard to believe that Machynlleth depot couldn't service both the 158's and the 197's - Chester managed to albeit poorly maintain the 175's and the 197's.
There will have to be a transition period at Machynlleth. Switching 20 diagrams from 158s to 197s overnight will be impossible. I expect the switch will be broken down in to two or three phases. It remains to be seen exactly how it is done.
 

Lewisham2221

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We can only hope these lessons have been learned although I get the feeling that when it looks like there is an opportunity to save a few £ that these past lessons get quietly forgotten.

Also I find it a bit hard to believe that Machynlleth depot couldn't service both the 158's and the 197's - Chester managed to albeit poorly maintain the 175's and the 197's.
I think what's meant is that there isn't space at Machynlleth to start bringing 197's into service without withdrawing 158s to make room. So whilst you might address the 197 shortage on the mainline, you'd just create a 158 shortage on the Cambrian.
 

Lurcheroo

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This does beg the question - where are all the Cambrian 197s currently kept.
Are they all built ?.
I think some are at Crewe, some are at Donnington and possibly a few somewhere else that I can think of right now.

I have 13 that have definitely been seen on the Network but I don’t keep super up to date with it in honesty.
 

Peter Sarf

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I think some are at Crewe, some are at Donnington and possibly a few somewhere else that I can think of right now.

I have 13 that have definitely been seen on the Network but I don’t keep super up to date with it in honesty.
Thanks. So safe to say about half are scattered around and maybe half are yet to be built or leave the CAF factory ?.
 

172007

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I do wonder whether a new thread should be opened with the title "Shortages of CAF 19X units" as the units are nigh on identical and the issues problems must be similar if not identical.

I am half expecting the Chiltern class 196's to be re-number 198xxx tbh
 

Lurcheroo

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Thanks. So safe to say about half are scattered around and maybe half are yet to be built or leave the CAF factory ?.
Well almost 2/3’s (14) are about and another 1/3 are unknown, they could be built I just don’t know.
 

Lewisham2221

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I do wonder whether a new thread should be opened with the title "Shortages of CAF 19X units" as the units are nigh on identical and the issues problems must be similar if not identical.

I am half expecting the Chiltern class 196's to be re-number 198xxx tbh
Do (or have) Northern have similar issues with the 195s? From posts on this forum, I gather WMT do have availability issues with the 196s
 

Jacob Porrett

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This does beg the question - where are all the Cambrian 197s currently kept.
Are they all built ?.
197003 is one of them which has been at Crewe depot for too long now. I can't get it any cleaner haha. The unit had a thermal incident a while back so it's a dodgy 197 to say the least.
 

WAB

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I also notice that hardly any 197s have been to Maesteg today. Maybe someone has been reading these forums!
It makes sense that the 197s are prioritised for longer routes, hence the Maestegs losing the 197s if things are a bit tight.
 

WAB

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No services west of Swansea today so presumably fewer 197s needed, so maybe not as bad as it would otherwise be.
Fewer 150s needed on the Valley lines last week and this due to blockades may also be helping.
 

FD99

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Sorry for the slow response to the touchscreen problems. Hate to backtrack but it’s the single most annoying thing in a 197 for a driver. (Well, for me at least)

The interface feels like it was designed by a child. For example, you have to set the ASDO up everytime you start the day, shunt out of course or attach/detach a unit. The system has no clue where it is so brings up a massive list of nearby stations and before you can do it the guard keys in and the system is disabled to the driver. Once the guard keys out, the driver has to go back through the slow menu and set it up (this is when the guard give you “ready to start” and you’re still playing with the stupid computer.) WHY!

ASDO aside, I’ve many other issues with it, but the HMI as said above is teadious at best. At worst it’s damn right frustrating. You can be inputting certain settings and the screen will just go off! You turn it back on and start from scratch……. Then it goes off again!! Really setting me in the right frame of mind to drive a train yeah!!

Then if ya doing something on one screen, and naturally go into neutral the screen changes and you have to start your process again. Heating controls are pathetic as stated above but I want to reiterate it as even when you do set a temp the heaters and aircon just does what it wants. If there’s an engine out the guard gets full AC and no heat so have to trip the circuit breaker in their cab or freeze. God forbid it rains and every window in the cab immediately steams up and you can’t see except the front window and that’s only because it’s got demist and 3 high powered air vents pointing at it. Oh, the drinks holder breaks every 40 miles….. that’s annoying and the in cab bin randomly falls when you use it.

The HMI is meant to stay on for 30 seconds but this was argued after implementation that was too long so they made it 10 seconds. It’s never 30 or 10 seconds, it just does random stuff and then as you’re driving it’ll flash up all sorts of pointless info like the door cameras aren’t working (we know, we have them switched off). Seriously, it’s the worst thought out pile of garbage anyone could have conceived and I’m not even nearly finished with my list of complaints. They are awful.

Oh here’s a good one whilst I’m at it, you type in the headcode and it’s meant to sort out the passenger info for you. Except if a headcode for Chester to Manchester matches with a headcode 10 hours earlier or in Merthyr Swansea or wherever, it has to ask you to confirm………. I mean, can that not be sorted by matching the GPS and time at all no?? Some of the faults that pop up mention how to fix them, except it’s the wrong information and the CBs are in different places. I’m so fed up with it. I’ve used blackberry devices with less problems I really have. I could go on but I think this sets the tone of my dislike for everything about them.

There’s no way anyone can design a system like this and think they’ve done a good job.
 

Jez

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Fewer 150s needed on the Valley lines last week and this due to blockades may also be helping.
Yes and fortunately they are used on routes closed to Cardiff like Maesteg and Ebbw Vale. Occasionally one ventures down to West Wales but never to Manchester these days it seems.

Looks to be only 2 of the 3 car 197s are not in service today and 7 of the 2 cars. So a slight improvement in availability I think.
 

Topological

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What happened today with 197s coming in from West Wales? Two only made it to Cardiff and then terminated short.

Otherwise, good to see that Manchester has been a 3-car service for all but the two cancelled trains (which were 3-cars)
 

Jez

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What happened today with 197s coming in from West Wales? Two only made it to Cardiff and then terminated short.

Otherwise, good to see that Manchester has been a 3-car service for all but the two cancelled trains (which were 3-cars)
Was there a shortage in Carmarthen this morning due to the weekend engineering works?

Did some stable there all weekend to have enough for service this morning?

I see there was a pair of 153s covering for a 197 yesterday on the 1730 Manchester to Cardiff. i think this is the first time in quite a while a pair of 153s has worked to Manchester.

Today with services between Bridgend and Cardiff being diverted via the Vale of Glamorgan and being split at Swansea we could see the fleet even more stretched today as this is bound to incur extra diagrams to cover the time of the extra diversion.
 
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kallyvintage

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Sorry for the slow response to the touchscreen problems. Hate to backtrack but it’s the single most annoying thing in a 197 for a driver. (Well, for me at least)

The interface feels like it was designed by a child. For example, you have to set the ASDO up everytime you start the day, shunt out of course or attach/detach a unit. The system has no clue where it is so brings up a massive list of nearby stations and before you can do it the guard keys in and the system is disabled to the driver. Once the guard keys out, the driver has to go back through the slow menu and set it up (this is when the guard give you “ready to start” and you’re still playing with the stupid computer.) WHY!

ASDO aside, I’ve many other issues with it, but the HMI as said above is teadious at best. At worst it’s damn right frustrating. You can be inputting certain settings and the screen will just go off! You turn it back on and start from scratch……. Then it goes off again!! Really setting me in the right frame of mind to drive a train yeah!!

Then if ya doing something on one screen, and naturally go into neutral the screen changes and you have to start your process again. Heating controls are pathetic as stated above but I want to reiterate it as even when you do set a temp the heaters and aircon just does what it wants. If there’s an engine out the guard gets full AC and no heat so have to trip the circuit breaker in their cab or freeze. God forbid it rains and every window in the cab immediately steams up and you can’t see except the front window and that’s only because it’s got demist and 3 high powered air vents pointing at it. Oh, the drinks holder breaks every 40 miles….. that’s annoying and the in cab bin randomly falls when you use it.

The HMI is meant to stay on for 30 seconds but this was argued after implementation that was too long so they made it 10 seconds. It’s never 30 or 10 seconds, it just does random stuff and then as you’re driving it’ll flash up all sorts of pointless info like the door cameras aren’t working (we know, we have them switched off). Seriously, it’s the worst thought out pile of garbage anyone could have conceived and I’m not even nearly finished with my list of complaints. They are awful.

Oh here’s a good one whilst I’m at it, you type in the headcode and it’s meant to sort out the passenger info for you. Except if a headcode for Chester to Manchester matches with a headcode 10 hours earlier or in Merthyr Swansea or wherever, it has to ask you to confirm………. I mean, can that not be sorted by matching the GPS and time at all no?? Some of the faults that pop up mention how to fix them, except it’s the wrong information and the CBs are in different places. I’m so fed up with it. I’ve used blackberry devices with less problems I really have. I could go on but I think this sets the tone of my dislike for everything about them.

There’s no way anyone can design a system like this and think they’ve done a good job.
Nice rant! Agree with a lot of it. It is relatively rare to get a 197 cab with a cupholder that isnt broken. I genuinely think a GCSE student of Product Design could design something better. As keeping hydrated is important for concentration, you can see why the drivers get so annoyed with them. It wouldnt be so bad if you can place your drink on another surface but the desks are sloped so anything placed on them like drink bottles, pens would slide off and cause distraction.

Regarding the screens, I like to have HVAC on what most people would consider cold for the ambient temperatures personally, as helps keep me awake and alert. (many guards seem to differ when I swap ends and all the heaters have been on) But yes its annoying having to key in, and go through the anaesthetised screen - tap tap tap, tap, tap tap , and that's just to get past all the faults which insist on showing up first and need clearing, to then set the train up with umpteen more tap tap taps, for headcode and driver ID, set PIS etc & before you even get to the HVAC settings screen to set your temp preference from the default (with yet more taps,) the guards given you two on the buzzer.

Yet another bugbear is that the TCMS HMI screen disappears after a couple of seconds of inactivity. So it requires tapping, then waiting for it to wake up. Then as soon as its on, its gone off again. I think that as a driver, if I want it on (i.e to look at the driver tab showing brake / throttle percentages) it should stay on, until I decide to turn it off.

Its why I enjoy the simplicity of the 158s a lot of the time.
 

Lurcheroo

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Yet another bugbear is that the TCMS HMI screen disappears after a couple of seconds of inactivity. So it requires tapping, then waiting for it to wake up. Then as soon as its on, its gone off again. I think that as a driver, if I want it on (i.e to look at the driver tab showing brake / throttle percentages) it should stay on, until I decide to turn it off.

Its why I enjoy the simplicity of the 158s a lot of the time.
I imagine it would be nice to be able to see brake and throttle percentages.
 
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Topological

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A 5-car on 1W12, though sadly the front 2 are coming off at Shrewsbury. Realtime Trains showing only the 3-car that is continuing to Manchester though. When the 5 showed up I presumed the front 2 would go to Manchester and it was going to be another cosy end to the trip.

Would be interesting to know what the other 2-car is going to be doing.
 

MP393

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A 5-car on 1W12, though sadly the front 2 are coming off at Shrewsbury. Realtime Trains showing only the 3-car that is continuing to Manchester though. When the 5 showed up I presumed the front 2 would go to Manchester and it was going to be another cosy end to the trip.

Would be interesting to know what the other 2-car is going to be doing.

It’s combined with the cancelled 1W90 Holyhead which got held up due to the freight which slipped on the bank at Cwmbran. To save running two trains behind each other up the marches, 1W12 coupled to 1W90, it’ll run as a pair to Shrewsbury where 1W90 will restart and 1W12 continue to Piccadilly as booked.
 

Topological

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It’s combined with the cancelled 1W90 Holyhead which got held up due to the freight which slipped on the bank at Cwmbran. To save running two trains behind each other up the marches, 1W12 coupled to 1W90, it’ll run as a pair to Shrewsbury where 1W90 will restart and 1W12 continue to Piccadilly as booked.
Thank you.

It is good that they can just rescue each other like that. That does explain why there was a slight delay at Cwmbran too. I got on at Pontypool, but was wondering why a longer stop at Cwmbran was showing.

Seems these 197s are actually quite good at joining because it only lost about 2 minutes for the join.
 

MP393

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Thank you.

It is good that they can just rescue each other like that. That does explain why there was a slight delay at Cwmbran too. I got on at Pontypool, but was wondering why a longer stop at Cwmbran was showing.

Seems these 197s are actually quite good at joining because it only lost about 2 minutes for the join.

I think they coupled before departure at Cardiff rather than at Cwmbran, but still a good idea to join them up. The extended dwell at Cwmbran was likely down to adhesion, the failed freight slipped up the bank with poor railhead this morning and had to return to Llanwern, and 197s are quite light on their feet so may well have struggled to get away from the station too!
 

Topological

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I think they coupled before departure at Cardiff rather than at Cwmbran, but still a good idea to join them up. The extended dwell at Cwmbran was likely down to adhesion, the failed freight slipped up the bank with poor railhead this morning and had to return to Llanwern, and 197s are quite light on their feet so may well have struggled to get away from the station too!
Split reasonably quickly at Shrewsbury, though the Manchester half left 5 minutes late.

Thanks again for the news on what happened.
 

Krokodil

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I think they coupled before departure at Cardiff rather than at Cwmbran, but still a good idea to join them up. The extended dwell at Cwmbran was likely down to adhesion, the failed freight slipped up the bank with poor railhead this morning and had to return to Llanwern, and 197s are quite light on their feet so may well have struggled to get away from the station too!
A double set should have better luck over the slippy bit than two sets individually too
 

ThePeakNed

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331s (the electric relative) are abysmal to drive in poor adhesion!
If it’s any consolation, bringing a 195 out the underfloor wash at Newton Heath was never a fun experience either. There’s only so many times you can put up with it slipping to the point the OTDR dies before it isn’t funny anymore… :lol:
 

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