CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Bletchleyite]

I did wonder why all TfW uniforms were black. It makes the guards look like bouncers, particularly when the body cam is fitted.

 

[Dai Corner]

Crumbs - wearing black on a hot sunny day is not very comfortable !.
So the reflections of light things on the ETCS screen must be quite noticeable.

I guess it must be easier to change the uniforms than the display technology.

 

[tfw756rider]

It's nothing to do with being "annoying"; if the sun is at the right angle and bright enough it can be difficult to make out the information shown on the ETCS screen. It's the reason why drivers (initially just Cambrian, but later extended company wide) wear black.

Don't the Cambrian 158s, in addition to the dark-tinted cab windows and being the first TfW trains to be driven by black-shirted drivers, also have cab window blinds and dark-painted internal cab walls (in some random dark-greeny colour)?

Will the Cambrian 197s also have the blinds and dark wall paint, or just the window tints (and black-shirted drivers, but as you said, that's now company-wide), with the blinds and dark wall paint no longer deemed necessary for some reason?

 

[craigybagel]

Crumbs - wearing black on a hot sunny day is not very comfortable !.
So the reflections of light things on the ETCS screen must be quite noticeable.

To be fair, the cab Aircon on both 158s and 197s works very well - in both cases more so than in the saloon! But yes, if the sun is at the right angle it can be hard to see; even dressed in black you can still sometimes see your reflection in the screen.

I did wonder why all TfW uniforms were black. It makes the guards look like bouncers, particularly when the body cam is fitted.

To be honest, I'm not sure why the decision was made to allow the guards to wear black shirts as well as the drivers - it was nicer having an easy way to differentiate between the two guards in my opinion. The uniforms for both grades are currently getting updated anyway.

Don't the Cambrian 158s, in addition to the dark-tinted cab windows and being the first TfW trains to be driven by black-shirted drivers, also have cab window blinds and dark-painted internal cab walls (in some random dark-greeny colour)?

Will the Cambrian 197s also have the blinds and dark wall paint, or just the window tints (and black-shirted drivers, but as you said, that's now company-wide), with the blinds and dark wall paint no longer deemed necessary for some reason?

I've not noticed any difference in the ETCS 197s compared to the standard sets - but apart from a training run before the units were in service my only time driving an ETCS set has been in the dark so I can't comment much yet! They definitely don't have the blinds that the 158s have - I don't see how they could be compatible with the window being on an opening door - and they're the same greyish white inside as the other units.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I did wonder why all TfW uniforms were black. It makes the guards look like bouncers, particularly when the body cam is fitted.

Guards also (currently) have the option of white shirts, it certainly does seem that most prefer the black option though.

I've not noticed any difference in the ETCS 197s compared to the standard sets - but apart from a training run before the units were in service my only time driving an ETCS set has been in the dark so I can't comment much yet! They definitely don't have the blinds that the 158s have - I don't see how they could be compatible with the window being on an opening door - and they're the same greyish white inside as the other units.

There's a matte black vinyl applied to the bulkhead panel immediately behind the drivers seat too.

 

[tfw756rider]

I've not noticed any difference in the ETCS 197s compared to the standard sets - but apart from a training run before the units were in service my only time driving an ETCS set has been in the dark so I can't comment much yet! They definitely don't have the blinds that the 158s have - I don't see how they could be compatible with the window being on an opening door - and they're the same greyish white inside as the other units.

Fair enough! Good point on the lack of cab window blinds on the Cambrian 197s due them being in doors, and thanks for the reply/info.

There's a matte black vinyl applied to the bulkhead panel immediately behind the drivers seat too.

Ah, thanks! I wonder how they can "not need" the (impractical-due-to-the-door) blinds though - maybe the newer Display Machine Interface screens have improved enough that the window tints, black bulkhead vinyls and (now-company-wide) black-shirted drivers are a sufficient amount of reflection-reduction measures?

 

[craigybagel]

There's a matte black vinyl applied to the bulkhead panel immediately behind the drivers seat too.

Good to know. I'll have to look out for that next time I drive one!

Ah, thanks! I wonder how they can "not need" the (impractical-due-to-the-door) blinds though - maybe the newer Display Machine Interface screens have improved enough that the window tints, black bulkhead vinyls and (now-company-wide) black-shirted drivers are a sufficient amount of reflection-reduction measures?

I suspect the biggest change is the positioning of the side windows. The 158s have a very large window immediately to the drivers side. On 197s, there's a much smaller window there - it's handy for lining up with stop car markers, but much less light gets in. The bigger window is on the cab door, but that's much further back behind the seat so less of an issue.

 

[tfw756rider]

I suspect the biggest change is the positioning of the side windows. The 158s have a very large window immediately to the drivers side. On 197s, there's a much smaller window there - it's handy for lining up with stop car markers, but much less light gets in. The bigger window is on the cab door, but that's much further back behind the seat so less of an issue.

Oh yes, that makes sense then - thanks!

 

[Kite159]

The sooner a proper facility for maintenance of 197s is opened in the south the better. Passengers are constantly being inconvenienced with swaps at Chester and other stations because of all the failed and defective units having to be sent up there. It was always going to cause a problem trying to have 70 units based in a depot that was only used to 27.

Agreed, shame CAF couldn't take over the former HST depot in Swansea and split the workload.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

197101 at Crewe Junction 16 M6 tonight on Allelys trucks. Saw it on my way home from work

 

[Broseley man]

197101 at Crewe Junction 16 M6 tonight on Allelys trucks. Saw it on my way home from work

What would be the reason for 197101 being on a lorry - two lorries?

 

[Topological]

Looks like issues again today.

Worryingly, the 17:30 from Manchester is showing as a 3-car.

Seems there was covering for Mk4 going on. 2-car on 1W13 would have been cosy this morning.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

What would be the reason for 197101 being on a lorry - two lorries?

I think it's come from Worksop as it's been there for a period of time. However, unsure where it was going.

 

[chrisjo]

I'm just reviewing some pictures I took from the carpark behind the flats at Pengam two days ago (12th March).

It appears that I have pictures showing a 2-car 197 passing west towards CDF with 197013 on the front (image taken time 09:12:44) and 197051 on the back (09:44:48). Destination boards both ends say Cardiff Central.

I'm struggling to reconcile this service with anything on RTT. There's definitely at least one passenger on board.

Is this even possible?

 

[SeaKing]

I'm just reviewing some pictures I took from the carpark behind the flats at Pengam two days ago (12th March).

It appears that I have pictures showing a 2-car 197 passing west towards CDF with 197013 on the front (image taken time 09:12:44) and 197051 on the back (09:44:48). Destination boards both ends say Cardiff Central.

I'm struggling to reconcile this service with anything on RTT. There's definitely at least one passenger on board.

Is this even possible?

That was 1V90. VVR from Chester

That was 1V90. VVR from Chester units not showing until it went to sidings

 

[Lewisham2221]

I'm just reviewing some pictures I took from the carpark behind the flats at Pengam two days ago (12th March).

It appears that I have pictures showing a 2-car 197 passing west towards CDF with 197013 on the front (image taken time 09:12:44) and 197051 on the back (09:44:48). Destination boards both ends say Cardiff Central.

I'm struggling to reconcile this service with anything on RTT. There's definitely at least one passenger on board.

Is this even possible?

Looking at RTT, I can see a 5V90 Cardiff Central - Canton ECS formed of 197013 and 197051. It says the previous working was 1V90, which shows as a very short term variation on that particular day, starting from Chester vice Holyhead and does not show which unit(s) were allocated to this service, so that would tie in. I can't see anything that ties in with the 09.44 photograph, but units do sometimes shunt out towards Pengam Junction

 

[chrisjo]

Looking at RTT, I can see a 5V90 Cardiff Central - Canton ECS formed of 197013 and 197051. It says the previous working was 1V90, which shows as a very short term variation on that particular day, starting from Chester vice Holyhead and does not show which unit(s) were allocated to this service, so that would tie in. I can't see anything that ties in with the 09.44 photograph, but units do sometimes shunt out towards Pengam Junction

Thanks for that. I've confused the issue by giving the wrong time for the second photo, which in reality was four seconds after the first. My problem was really that I thought I had pictures of a 2-car with different numbers on the front and back, but I'm not sure now. Probably best if I go and lie down for a while.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

I think it's come from Worksop as it's been there for a period of time. However, unsure where it was going.

197101 went to Chester depot. Arrived today.

 

[Broseley man]

197101 went to Chester depot. Arrived today.

Thanks Jacob for your answers about 197101. Does anyone know why a unit goes to Worksop and why it has to return, at least, by lorry?

 

[MP393]

Thanks Jacob for your answers about 197101. Does anyone know why a unit goes to Worksop and why it has to return, at least, by lorry?

101 has been away for work to wheel sets (and possibly other work) after a depot derailment so it could be that it still not ready to be ran on rail yet

 

[sd0733]

Worryingly, the 17:30 from Manchester is showing as a 3 car

Which then failed in Manchester, managed to leave eventually 45 late but only to Crewe, another unit started there long before it arrives from Manchester

 

[Topological]

Which then failed in Manchester, managed to leave eventually 45 late but only to Crewe, another unit started there long before it arrives from Manchester

Indeed. I was briefly happy seeing the unit swap with the Chester shuttle. But the resuming service did indeed leave Crewe at 18:24 well before we arrived at 18:50.

Putting all of us from the 17:30 onto the 2-car 18:30 (19:10 ex Crewe) which should have been a Mk4.

Last night I only went to Pontypool (thankfully) because getting back West from Cardiff would have been a very long delay.

An interesting (but ultimately irrelevant) point is that 197115 (the unit that failed) was only allocated to Cardiff on RTT. So I have no idea what the plan would have been then. Another on the "TfW do not want to run direct Manchester to West Wales trains" bingo card. Moot in the end because the unit did not make it past Crewe and 197124 was shown as continuing to Milford Haven after starting at Crewe.

Not the best journey home last night.

Still, should be free.

 

[Jez]

Indeed. I was briefly happy seeing the unit swap with the Chester shuttle. But the resuming service did indeed leave Crewe at 18:24 well before we arrived at 18:50.

Putting all of us from the 17:30 onto the 2-car 18:30 (19:10 ex Crewe) which should have been a Mk4.

Last night I only went to Pontypool (thankfully) because getting back West from Cardiff would have been a very long delay.

An interesting (but ultimately irrelevant) point is that 197115 (the unit that failed) was only allocated to Cardiff on RTT. So I have no idea what the plan would have been then. Another on the "TfW do not want to run direct Manchester to West Wales trains" bingo card. Moot in the end because the unit did not make it past Crewe and 197124 was shown as continuing to Milford Haven after starting at Crewe.

Not the best journey home last night.

Still, should be free.

Very often it is at Cardiff (or Chester) where unit swaps take place as these are the places there are likely to be other units.

The 1730 seems to be one of the most likely to be short formed.

 

[animationmilo]

Very often it is at Cardiff (or Chester) where unit swaps take place as these are the places there are likely to be other units.

The 1730 seems to be one of the most likely to be short formed.

Which is the busiest peak time train too

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Realtime Trains | 4G97 0626 Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Donnington Rft | 17/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 4G97 0626 departure from Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Donnington Rft on 17/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 6G97 1007 Donnington Rft to Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site) | 17/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 6G97 1007 departure from Donnington Rft to Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site) on 17/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

66572 hauling 197026 this morning.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Realtime Trains | 4G97 0626 Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Donnington Rft | 17/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 4G97 0626 departure from Basford Hall Yard (Fl) to Donnington Rft on 17/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 6G97 1007 Donnington Rft to Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site) | 17/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 6G97 1007 departure from Donnington Rft to Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site) on 17/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

66572 hauling 197026 this morning.

Not yet left Donnington

The 17:30 would be ideal as Mk4, but needs to be booked 5 or 6 car if it isn't already, especially midweek.

 

[sd0733]

The 17:30 would be ideal as Mk4, but needs to be booked 5 or 6 car if it isn't already, especially mimidweek.

It's booked a 5 car. 6s aren't cleared beyond Shrewsbury so it won't go to 6 car.

 

[Topological]

It's booked a 5 car. 6s aren't cleared beyond Shrewsbury so it won't go to 6 car.

As it is one of my regular trains at the moment, 5-car is fine for everything apart from Manchester to Wilmslow (and that is not really TfW problem). The challenge is when it is a single unit, which happens too often.

The big challenge Friday was that after the 3-car 17:30 failed the 18:30 was only 2-car and the 3-car that substituted from Crewe southwards did not wait for the passengers from the 17:30.

In the south, the 17:30 does seem to pick up a lot of passengers from Abergavenny onwards to go to Cardiff. Loads from Newport and Cardiff depend on whether the GWR has run on time (or an earlier one has run very late) so that no one is tempted to use the TfW instead.

Still TfW did an excellent job of confirming the 1-hour delay repay, so credit to them for that.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Not yet left Donnington

The 17:30 would be ideal as Mk4, but needs to be booked 5 or 6 car if it isn't already, especially midweek.

No because it arrived at 09:50am this morning some 122 minutes late. It will leave late as a result. Fingers crossed with the 197 in tow.

 

[sd0733]

As it is one of my regular trains at the moment, 5-car is fine for everything apart from Manchester to Wilmslow (and that is not really TfW problem). The challenge is when it is a single unit, which happens too often.

The big challenge Friday was that after the 3-car 17:30 failed the 18:30 was only 2-car and the 3-car that substituted from Crewe southwards did not wait for the passengers from the 17:30.

In the south, the 17:30 does seem to pick up a lot of passengers from Abergavenny onwards to go to Cardiff. Loads from Newport and Cardiff depend on whether the GWR has run on time (or an earlier one has run very late) so that no one is tempted to use the TfW instead.

Still TfW did an excellent job of confirming the 1-hour delay repay, so credit to them for that.

It is a shame that the 17:30 is the go-to diagram which gets shortformed. It was even that one that a pair of 153s last ran.

Unfortunately there's limitations on holding trains at Crewe for extended periods, with only 6, 11 and 12 accessible from Chester its then blocking a through platform, potentially 2 of them once the arrival from Manchester arrives. There's also the 18:10 Crewe-Cardiff and return is an out and back Crewe driver and TM turn, any long delay inevitably then impacts on the return meaning missed last connections etc so sending it and paying out the delay repay, is, as annoying as it is when you're delayed, probably the least bad option overall.

At least the delay repay was quickly sorted.