CAF Inneo for the DLR

Snow1964

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They're basically the same, the key difference is when they were ordered and entered service. ie the B90/B92/B2K stock are all the same design but ordered at different times, and the B07 is the newer design for capacity increases.

The B2K batch only dates from about 2001, and it appears standardisation is removing it from service, not its age. (So there will be 2 classes of trains, not a relatively small older 3rd batch)

It is unclear if this newer B2K batch will go for scrap, or be sold off to somewhere else as secondhand.

There are also some growth options in current order, although now that TfL are skint I do wonder if they will consider keeping these for shuttles rather than incurring extra capital costs buying extra new trains, probably not as they seem to be able to get CIL (community infrastructure levy) funding from builders in docklands area
 
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Dstock7080

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Report to staff today:
Three of the five cars that make up the first new B2023 train are on the finishing line at CAF's Design and Manufacturing facility in Beasain, Northern Spain
 

rebmcr

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Report to staff today:
Three of the five cars that make up the first new B2023 train are on the finishing line at CAF's Design and Manufacturing facility in Beasain, Northern Spain
Interesting designation — I thought the B in the existing names stood for Bombardier.

Upon research I find it means Beckton. Does the lack of P-prefixed stock mean that Poplar is no longer being used for heavy maintenance?
 

southern442

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It is unclear if this newer B2K batch will go for scrap, or be sold off to somewhere else as secondhand.
Without wanting to open any particularly large cans of worms, There is pretty much nowhere for them to go, unless Essen fancies more ex-DLR stock!
 

edwin_m

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I think if a DLR vehicle could run in Essen it could also run on one of several other high floor segregated German light rail networks that share common technical standards.

However, the original DLR units were sold off with plenty of life remaining, because if they recall correctly they didn't meet the fire standards to operate on the underground extensions to Bank and under the Thames. There's no such restriction on use for the B2K stock, they'll be over 20 years old by the time they are replaced, and I suspect the DLR is quite an unforgiving environment for its rolling stock. So I'd guess it's not worth any other operator paying for pantographs and any other adaptions, and they will be for the scrap line.
 

Taunton

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As a local inhabitant and regular user I find the descriptions of the DLR stock as "life expired" to be somewhat overstated. The vehicles seem to be in perfect mechanical order, I've never experienced a breakdown of one (more than I can say for their Oyster card readers), and I really can't see what the replacement issue is. Too late now, they are building the replacements, but it does seem somewhat profligate - possibly I can say in best TfL style. I understand that the pleasant transverse seating cannot be changed to the sideways style the B07 cars were rearranged to, because of the layout of some of the underseat equipment; TfL doesn't like transverse seating because they can't stuff so many standees in, which I suspect has something to do with it.
 

hacman

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As a local inhabitant and regular user I find the descriptions of the DLR stock as "life expired" to be somewhat overstated. The vehicles seem to be in perfect mechanical order, I've never experienced a breakdown of one (more than I can say for their Oyster card readers), and I really can't see what the replacement issue is. Too late now, they are building the replacements, but it does seem somewhat profligate - possibly I can say in best TfL style.
That said, be careful what you wish for.

If the rolling stock reaches the point of being unreliable before the process to replace it is started, you end up with... well what we currently have on the TW Metro and to an extent Merseyrail.

Metro, in particular, has been riddled with issues for well over 5 years now due to the age and condition of its fleet (which reached life expiry in ~2010 - perhaps earlier in reality due to the intensity with which it has been used), and it has had a substantial impact on peoples willingness to use the system.

The lack of transverse seating isn't just a TfL thing either sadly - Nexus have specified our entire fleet up here to be the same, much to the dismay of many passengers.
 

londonteacher

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With all services on the DLR being under 30 minutes is there really a need for transverse seating? The answer is no.
 

Mikey C

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With all services on the DLR being under 30 minutes is there really a need for transverse seating? The answer is no.
Is there a need for any seating (other than a couple reserved for the elderly etc? Or air conditioning?

Yes capacity issues are extremely important, but so is the passenger experience. And the DLR being largely outside and elevated has some cracking views out
 

southern442

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Is there a need for any seating (other than a couple reserved for the elderly etc? Or air conditioning?

Yes capacity issues are extremely important, but so is the passenger experience. And the DLR being largely outside and elevated has some cracking views out
Exactly. If the issue is trying to get lots of standees in then you could quite easily come up with a 2+1 seating layout with some gaps that has almost as much standing room as a longitudinal seating layout, with far far superior comfort and passenger experience. Longitudinal seating takes all the charm out of the railway journey and whilst there's no monetary value for that I believe it to be a very important thing.
 

Taunton

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That said, be careful what you wish for.

If the rolling stock reaches the point of being unreliable before the process to replace it is started, you end up with... Merseyrail.
Merseyrail is an unfortunate example with me, because we were living on the line at West Kirby in 1979-ish when they last replaced the trains there. The previous generation stock, built 1938, like the current DLR fleet, performed faultlessly in my experience to the end, and indeed, even looked perfectly presentable when they were being broken up for scrap behind Birkenhead North depot. The replacing 507/508 fleet meanwhile was plagued with initial faults which led to delays and cancellations like had never been experienced before, and which took years to resolve. I don't think this fleet ever got to the fault-free level of their predecessors.
 

southern442

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If you've grown up around fleets that seemed fairly new or modern when you were younger, it's hard to say exactly when things start to look 'dated'. For example I have always seen the B90/92 as quite a modern hi-tech train, even though they are coming up to 30 years old now. By contrast, when I was growing up was when the slammers were just being replaced with 377s and 450s, so by comparison the 455s that I often travelled on have always seemed like the 'old trains' (and that's always been how I refer to them when talking to people who aren't railway nerds). However if you take a closer look, you can see that the design of the oldest DLR trains is actually starting to show it's age a little, especially with the opening hopper windows and door design.

Another good example is the T&W stock, I think because light rail is a fairly new concept and because they have plug doors, when it was first announced that they were getting replaced my first instinct was 'really?', forgetting that one or two of the units are actually older than the class 313's!
 

Chris M

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Regarding the seating, the DLR is first and foremost a mass transit system whose purpose is moving large volumes of people from A to B, so it is right that the trains be designed for capacity. Views are nothing more than a nice-to-have, but there will be 1 or 2 rows of transverse seats at each end of the new trains..

The current DLR units are indeed showing their age and while failures that completely disable a unit are uncommon, lesser failures that still necessitate removal from service are increasingly common. Mudchute is my local station and so I use it frequently (in normal times), platform 3 (the bay platform) is a favoured place to put a unit out of the way if it's failed on the Lewisham branch, which is happening more than it used to. I suspect the train I saw in Crossharbour siding last week was also being removed from service. On multiple occasions I've had to report door buttons not working or other minor issues. I remember one of the publicity documents from earlier in the process stating that the couplers were also suffering from significant wear and were becoming life expired.
I recall being told shortly before the Olympics by someone who worked for DLR at the time that the fleet reliability was generally poor - and that was (frighteningly) almost 10 years ago now.
 

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