DLR B23 Stock (CAF Inneo)

[edwin_m]

For all the discussion of seating here, as someone who spent the past year and a half living near Westferry, I'll point out that being unable to board during the morning rush hour was a thing that did happen. Having more space for standees would be nothing but good, in my book. The DLR has in some ways been a victim of its own success, hence the lengthening to three-car trains previously, and that now doesn't suffice. I hope the additional space made available by being a single unit will provide a decent capacity uplift, and I do wonder where else the DLR can go to improve capacity.

Crossrail will help, although I see TfL are now threatening to mothball it if they don't get more funding.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I hope the additional space made available by being a single unit will provide a decent capacity uplift, and I do wonder where else the DLR can go to improve capacity.

More trains closer together perhaps? I think the signalling systems is moving block so it should be able to cope with trains running closer together (possibly with reduced speeds though).
That said I'm sure I read a while ago that Bank station DLR platforms were at capacity in terms of being able to deal with the number of people leaving an arriving train, and the number waiting for and boarding departing one, so perhaps this needs sorted before any more trains per hour can be run in practice (although I can't imagine platform and staircase widening underground comes cheap!).

 

[Taunton]

I do wonder where else the DLR can go to improve capacity.

Crossrail will take a considerable amount of demand off the DLR. In your case (and mine), Canary Wharf to The City; Beckton line/Excel (via Custom House) to The City; Woolwich to The City.

 

[Nym]

More trains closer together perhaps? I think the signalling systems is moving block so it should be able to cope with trains running closer together (possibly with reduced speeds though).
That said I'm sure I read a while ago that Bank station DLR platforms were at capacity in terms of being able to deal with the number of people leaving an arriving train, and the number waiting for and boarding departing one, so perhaps this needs sorted before any more trains per hour can be run in practice (although I can't imagine platform and staircase widening underground comes cheap!).

It is "Moving Block" but it's very badly configured. Any time spent on the eastbound platform at Westferry will show you just how bad it can get.

I use the term "Moving Block" as it's not, and very little is, it's small blocks with a distance defined overlap and protection zone.

Spending some time optimising the signalling system would help capacity rather than everything backing up into default authorities whenever anything goes wrong. This optimisation is why the highest frequency line on LUL is still fixed block signalled.

Another example of poor ATP / ATC / Signalling optimisation (*and to be honest, demonstration of very poor practice) would be starting from Moorgate S/B on the Northern Line. (Same signalling system).

 

[Taunton]

It is "Moving Block" but it's very badly configured. Any time spent on the eastbound platform at Westferry will show you just how bad it can get.

I use the term "Moving Block" as it's not, and very little is, it's small blocks with a distance defined overlap and protection zone.

Curiously, the original GEC signal system used to give better headways. I can recall at busy times that trains would stop maybe just a car length behind the previous one delayed at a station, as if buses, and would move forward almost immediately it was clear - Limehouse eastbound was a common point to see this. Then it was replaced by Canadian-developed SelTrac. Now I was familiar with this from its first implementation on the Vancouver Skytrain, where it ran some impressively short headway interleaved operations during the 1986 world fair Expo there, with multiple trains moving together along the same track - that's 35 years ago. What's in place now on the DLR is nothing like that, it's as if it is conventional signalling with big overlaps.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

TfL are now threatening to mothball it if they don't get more funding.

Or in normal terms, fulfilling legal obligations of not being able to issue new contracts without guarantee of payment.

 

[Snow1964]

There is a reference on page 35 of the new TfL Investment committee documents (3rd March) to 14 extra units (and extra stabling sidings) linked to a housing fund which is now signed (with a break clause in July)

These appears to be additional to the 33 replacements plus 10 growth units

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/pic-20210303-agenda-and-documents-public.pdf.pdf

Quote : The final design phase has been completed and manufacturing has now commenced with Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles. The final design for the Thales signalling has been accepted by the project team.

The Beckton Depot enabling package has been awarded and tender evaluation has been completed for the Beckton Depot northern sidings works and approval given to award this contract. Works to bring in a new traction power supply by UKPN have commenced on site.

Authority to enter into the grant agreement for the Housing Infrastructure Fund works to delivery 14 additional trains and stabling capacity was approved in December 2020, and the grant agreement has now been signed. There is a break clause in this agreement in July 2021, should TfL’s funding agreement make it not possible to proceed.

 

[JaJaWa]

Video showing completed mock-up and new livery:

It seems the reveal video has been removed by TfL or CAF.

There are some screenshots here https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/11/20/a-first-look-at-the-new-dlr-trains/ and you can see the new livery here though (the sides are mainly turquoise and the front and doors are mainly white):

A first look at the new DLR trains
© ianVisits 20 November 2020

TfL has an order for a fleet of new DLR trains to replace over half of its older trains and expand the size of the fleet, and the first images of the new trains have been released.

Internally, the trains retain a familiar DLR look, although with a lot more fold-up seats replacing the long banks of seats the DLR trains currently come with. The switch will create more space in rush hours, if people can be persuaded not to fold down the seats to sit on them, along with more flexible space for wheelchairs and bikes.

One big change is that while there are still front facing seats so people can pretend to drive the train — a vital requirement — the seats immediately behind them wont be forward facing as well, so losing a little bit of the fun.

The occasional drivers will doubtless appreciate the pull-out barrier to stop people trying to sit next to them.

The other main difference between the older and newer trains is that instead of fleets of 3 cars with 6 segments, these will be fully walk-through from end to end. CAF says that technically they will be 5-car trains, so we can expect each segment to be a bit longer than the current 6-segment trains.

Currently, around 20% of the length of a DLR train is doors, while the average for most metro-grade services is 30% for doors. The design change to fully walk-through carriages also releases more space for doors, so that people can get on and off faster.

The redesigned trains should be able to carry about 10 percent more passengers than the current trains. The redesigned interior along with the additional trains should increase carrying capacity on the DLR by 30%.

Although details could change, the current plans for the new trains are:

• To replace Stratford International to Woolwich Arsenal 2-car services with new full-length trains and improve peak service from a train every 8 minutes to one every 4 minutes.
• Replace the Bank to Woolwich Arsenal and Bank to Lewisham 3-car services with new trains.
• Introduce a new peak Stratford International to Beckton service with 3-car trains.
• Replace all Stratford to Canary Wharf 2-car services with new full-length trains and extend all these services (i.e. every 4 minutes) to Lewisham.
• The result of this on the Lewisham branch there will be a 65% increase in peak capacity compared to today, through a combination of making all trains full length, the higher capacity of the new trains, and the increase in total frequency from today’s 22.5 trains per hour to 30 trains per hour (every 2 minutes). TfL will also double the capacity to Beckton, nearly double capacity to Woolwich, and between Stratford and Canary Wharf by 65%.

The new trains will also feature on-board real- time information, air-conditioning and USB mobile device charging points for the first time. The USB sockets are the standard 5V USB sockets, but the wiring behind them allows for a later upgrade to the much fast charger standard USB-PD, when a railway approved supplier becomes available.

There are also what look to be video advertising screens on the new trains.

The contract for the new trains was awarded to Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles (CAF) in June 2019, and the first trains should start to arrive from 2023 for testing, with the first going into service in 2024.

Funding for an 14 additional trains was included in the government’s budget in November 2018.

 

[Class465pacer]

There is a reference on page 35 of the new TfL Investment committee documents (3rd March) to 14 extra units (and extra stabling sidings) linked to a housing fund which is now signed (with a break clause in July)

These appears to be additional to the 33 replacements plus 10 growth units

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/pic-20210303-agenda-and-documents-public.pdf.pdf

Quote : The final design phase has been completed and manufacturing has now commenced with Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles. The final design for the Thales signalling has been accepted by the project team.

The Beckton Depot enabling package has been awarded and tender evaluation has been completed for the Beckton Depot northern sidings works and approval given to award this contract. Works to bring in a new traction power supply by UKPN have commenced on site.

Authority to enter into the grant agreement for the Housing Infrastructure Fund works to delivery 14 additional trains and stabling capacity was approved in December 2020, and the grant agreement has now been signed. There is a break clause in this agreement in July 2021, should TfL’s funding agreement make it not possible to proceed.

Replacing the B2K's aswell?

 

[Snow1964]

Replacing the B2K's aswell?

If additional stabling is required, suggests they are a growth build.

Reviewing it suggests to me there is a housing development and there is probably a circular link, needs extra capacity to get planning permission, but if new development doesn’t commit by July the extra 14 trains don’t happen. I suspect it is all tied up with a CIL (community infrastructure levy, which has effectively replaces the old s106 levy) and transport plan in a planning application. I am guessing the value (how much developers are offering to give) is in exempt papers.

There may be someone with enough time to search planning application documents in the area, which might reveal the detail.

 

[py_megapixel]

Are they not getting the red/blue livery with grey doors then? Or are they simply being delivered in base livery with the paint job being done later?

 

[londonteacher]

Are they not getting the red/blue livery with grey doors then? Or are they simply being delivered in base livery with the paint job being done later?

I would assume not as the livery on the images above looks very much like the Elizabeth Line and new Overground, and Underground just different colours.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I would assume not as the livery on the images above looks very much like the Elizabeth Line and new Overground, and Underground just different colours.

It's more or less identical to the 1990s / 2000s Paris Metro livery.

 

[urpert]

It's more or less identical to the 1990s / 2000s Paris Metro livery.

I was about to say, it looks very RATP!

 

[py_megapixel]

To me, it looks like the base livery from the factory...

 

[Taunton]

What's the reduction in seats compared to the trains being replaced?

Also, with the current 2+2 transverse seats the aisle passenger always spills out over the aisle. Not possible of course with long sideways seats, people just don't fit them, so presumably some will have to go unused, reducing it further.

The front seats facing forward are always the most popular and go first; they have always been a well-regarded feature of the DLR ever since it opened. Well done designers for halving the number of them

 

[py_megapixel]

What's the reduction in seats compared to the trains being replaced?

Idea is more standing room, and because a standing passenger takes less floor space than a sitting one that means the capacity is greater overall

 

[Snow1964]

Idea is more standing room, and because a standing passenger takes less floor space than a sitting one that means the capacity is greater overall

Until sometime about 30 years ago, the Government based capacity requirements (and funding) on providing enough seats for everyone who’s journey was over 20 minutes.

Someone somewhere clearly decided it was more cost effective to ease those rules, assume large numbers ‘churn’ at intermediate connecting points and they can stand even if changing trains means they are standing 15+15 minutes.

I think capacity is now based on 4 standing per square metre of floor space regardless of if there is anything to hold onto. (A crush loaded train is nearer 5-6 per sq metre, but decidedly uncomfortable). Clearly can’t get 4 seats in a square metre.

 

[Taunton]

A floor space diagram I saw took all the floor space between the longitudinal seats, with no regard for the feet/legs of the seated passengers. This was not done for the space between seats in the transverse bays. So a further fiction it would seem in capacity.

 

[edwin_m]

Until sometime about 30 years ago, the Government based capacity requirements (and funding) on providing enough seats for everyone who’s journey was over 20 minutes.

Someone somewhere clearly decided it was more cost effective to ease those rules, assume large numbers ‘churn’ at intermediate connecting points and they can stand even if changing trains means they are standing 15+15 minutes.

I think capacity is now based on 4 standing per square metre of floor space regardless of if there is anything to hold onto. (A crush loaded train is nearer 5-6 per sq metre, but decidedly uncomfortable). Clearly can’t get 4 seats in a square metre.

I think providing a seat for any journey longer than 20min is still the policy. Most DLR journeys will be shorter than this, or someone may be able to get a seat part way through their journey.

 

[londonteacher]

To me, it looks like the base livery from the factory...

Potentially. But, the livery does look a lot like Crossrail and the new Overground just with their modes colour. Overground is very similar with more of an emphasis of orange, Crossrail is purple.

Maybe this is just the new corporate identity? London Underground isn't too far away from the design nor is the Trams.

The only one that is different is the buses.

 

[py_megapixel]

Potentially. But, the livery does look a lot like Crossrail and the new Overground just with their modes colour. Overground is very similar with more of an emphasis of orange, Crossrail is purple.

Maybe this is just the new corporate identity? London Underground isn't too far away from the design nor is the Trams.

The only one that is different is the buses.

I wasn't disputing that it's likely to be the permanent livery; I just don't think it looks all that good...

 

[londonteacher]

I wasn't disputing that it's likely to be the permanent livery; I just don't think it looks all that good...

True - but the current livery is looking very old now!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wasn't disputing that it's likely to be the permanent livery; I just don't think it looks all that good...

I agree, I'd have stuck with the original "white body, blue skirt and relevant colour of doors" livery which was basically timeless and could have lasted forever.

 

[Nym]

Floor capacity is all based on 7 passengers per square metre anyway for capacity, might be higher for brake calcs.
Porterbrook looked into some data on the 455s passenger counters when there was a match on at Twickenham, it's actually a lot closer to 12 for crush loading.
So this whole 'capacity' thing is a load of bull plop anyway in the real world.

 

[TRAX]

I was about to say, it looks very RATP!

Ah don’t worry, the green RATP livery is on the way out now.

 

[Recessio]

The turqoise DLR logo on a turqoise background looks rubbish, but I like the new scheme overall. Makes much more sense than red+blue units when nearly all stations and signage are now turqoise.

 

[bramling]

I agree, I'd have stuck with the original "white body, blue skirt and relevant colour of doors" livery which was basically timeless and could have lasted forever.

DLR never had that. The original livery was red skirt, blue body and red doors. At some point a livery was trialled which had something like a white body with petrol blue doors, but I don’t remember much more than a vehicle or two carrying it.

The current livery does look dated for sure. I’ve always found it slightly odd as it doesn’t seem to fit with the rest of the TFL portfolio.

 

[TheManWho]

DLR never had that. The original livery was red skirt, blue body and red doors. At some point a livery was trialled which had something like a white body with petrol blue doors, but I don’t remember much more than a vehicle or two carrying it.

The current livery does look dated for sure. I’ve always found it slightly odd as it doesn’t seem to fit with the rest of the TFL portfolio.

It was Vehicle 40 that had two versions of an experimental livery- one side was blue with an aqua coloured "river" design the other side a pinkish red with a blue "river" design.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

DLR never had that. The original livery was red skirt, blue body and red doors. At some point a livery was trialled which had something like a white body with petrol blue doors, but I don’t remember much more than a vehicle or two carrying it.

The current livery does look dated for sure. I’ve always found it slightly odd as it doesn’t seem to fit with the rest of the TFL portfolio.

I’ve seen a photoshopped image of a B07 stock in London Under/Overground livery but with the turquoise front and doors installed of red/orange. Looked fantastic.