Calculating a partial refund

[freddie1729]

I have an SVR from Cambridge to Iver for £26.05 with a railcard. My train from Cambridge to London was delayed and I did not travel to Iver. I haven’t used the return yet but will use it from London to Cambridge.

What is the refund due? I bought through TrainPal and I can only get a refund with £10 fee if I post the tickets back. Should I go to a ticket office?

Many thanks for the help!

 

[yorkie]

If you still used it to visit London, I don't see how a refund is due. But if it was, it would be a matter for the retailer.

However you can claim Delay Repay if the delay was sufficiently lengthy to qualify. This would be a matter for the train company (presumably Govia Thameslink)

In either case it's not a matter for a ticket office.

 

[freddie1729]

I thought that if you’re delayed and choose not to complete your journey you could be refunded?

 

[yorkie]

I thought that if you’re delayed and choose not to complete your journey you could be refunded?

If a delay makes it impracticable to complete your journey and you return to your point of origin, you can claim a refund (however claiming a refund may not be straightforward if you have already partially used the ticket)

Did you have a day out in London or did you go straight back to Cambridge? Which train did you take that was delayed?

 

[freddie1729]

I had a day out in London in the end. The train I arrived on was about 20 mins late and as I was already running late I thought I’d spend the day in London instead.

I think you’ve answered my question, as I wasn’t stranded and I didn’t go back to Cambridge after being delayed.

 

[yorkie]

No worries

By the way I put the journey into Trainsplit to see what it would come up with, and it's a few quid cheaper to split at West Drayton and get travel within Zones 1-6 thrown in too.

Had you done that, the West Drayton to Iver ticket could have been refunded; this is one advantage of split ticketing that not many people realise.

Edit: note this only works for a Day return; at the time of posting this I did not realise it was a multi-day journey

 

[freddie1729]

Thanks! I didn’t think split ticketing would work for a journey like that!

Out of interest, why does the split make a difference to the refund? Just because you can calculate the refund easily because it’s one ticket?

 

[yorkie]

Thanks! I didn’t think split ticketing would work for a journey like that!

Out of interest, why does the split make a difference to the refund? Just because you can calculate the refund easily because it’s one ticket?

You can't get a refund on a ticket that has been used (unless delays occur and you immediately return to point of origin because it's no longer practicable to make the journey).

The second ticket would have been unused.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You can't get a refund on a ticket that has been used (unless delays occur and you immediately return to point of origin because it's no longer practicable to make the journey).

Condition 29.2 of the NRCoT says that refunds on part-used tickets are available based on the cost of the journey actually undertaken (although of course an administration fee is charged where the rail industry is not at fault). This is mirrored in the ticket terms displayed when buying a ticket on any website of any kind. You seem knowledgeable so I'm surprised you think this isn't the case.

In a case such as this, a refund of the difference between the fare paid and the cost of the fare for the journey actually undertaken can be claimed; as the abandonment of the rest of the journey from London onwards was as a result of the disruption, no administration fee should be charged. However, it's admittedly not difficult to imagine that some retailers might still try to charge an administration fee.

The OP hasn't said what trains they travelled on, so it's not possible to determine what ticket would have been the cheapest valid one for their journey, but assuming the difference between that and the £26.05 ticket they held is more than £10 then I'd certainly encourage them to contact the retailer of their ticket to obtain a partial refund.

 

[freddie1729]

The OP hasn't said what trains they travelled on, so it's not possible to determine what ticket would have been the cheapest valid one for their journey, but assuming the difference between that and the £26.05 ticket they held is more than £10 then I'd certainly encourage them to contact the retailer of their ticket to obtain a partial refund.

I travelled on the 1614 from Cambridge to Kings Cross on Friday. I had the open return ticket so I could come back at the weekend.

 

[yorkie]

It turns out the difference in fares is actually only 50 pence.

So claiming under 29.2 would cost £10 for the admin fee to get 50p back, a loss of £9.50

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It turns out the difference in fares is actually only 50 pence.

So claiming under 29.2 would cost £10 for the admin fee to get 50p back, a loss of £9.50

As stated, an admin fee isn't applicable because the OP abandoned part of their journey due to the disruption. However I agree that it's not really worth most peoples' time to request a refund of 50p that they are likely to find difficult to obtain.

 

[yorkie]

As stated, an admin fee isn't applicable because the OP abandoned part of their journey due to the disruption. However I agree that it's not really worth most peoples' time to request a refund of 50p that they are likely to find difficult to obtain.

I'm not sure about this; Condition 29.2 makes no mention of waiving the admin fee.

The passenger does still have the option to get a full refund by returning immediately to the point of origin, or claiming Delay Repay (though claiming for a part journey can be a time consuming process) .

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'm not sure about this; Condition 29.2 makes no mention of waiving the admin fee.

The passenger does still have the option to get a full refund by returning immediately to the point of origin, or claiming Delay Repay (though claiming for a part journey can be a time consuming process) .

I agree that this is not as spelt out as it should be. However, for Condition 30, which deals with the same situation but in the context of the railway being at fault (as opposed to the passenger changing their mind, which is what 29 is mostly about), none of the options involve any kind of administration fee. 29.2 also does not say that an administrative fee will apply, only that it may apply. It's therefore clearly implied that if you abandon your journey short of your destination (but don't actually return to your origin immediately) that this is one of the situations where no administration fee applies to the relevant refund.

It would also be unlikely to be an enforceable term in the context of a consumer contract, for a trader (the rail industry) to be at fault for the partial execution of a contract, and yet to have the right to retain more than the appropriate cost of the services actually performed. See also Section 56(6) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, which bans any fee in respect of a (partial) refund in these circumstances.

 

[Starmill]

A partial refund most definitely is due if you chose to abandon your journey part way because of disruption, but didn't return to your origin.

It's simply that, in many cases, the price of what you used will be almost as much as the price of what you bought. This seems to be one such case.

The same applies if you bought a return, used the outward normally, and then abandoned the return journey only.

 

[Starmill]

You can't get a refund on a ticket that has been used (unless delays occur and you immediately return to point of origin because it's no longer practicable to make the journey).

I certainly don't agree with this.

For example, if the customer buys a single, and the train makes the majority of its journey, and then it has a long delay at a station en route due to a problem ahead on the line, the customer obviously has the option to abandon their journey at that station and continue by some other means (lift, bus, taxi, etc) of their own, even if the train company asks them to wait.

The railway industry isn't then at liberty to charge to include the part of the journey which they didn't provide. The customer does not have to sit and wait for an indefinite period of time for the train to continue through the disruption, or for the company to arrange alternative transport - although they may wish to in order to maximise on their entitlement to compensation. Asking them to wait when they don't have to and then declining to pay any refund in respect of the difference in services bought and services used is a clear breach of the contract.

Looking at the OP's specific case, it would be completely illogical for them to be ineligible for a refund. This is because they would have been clearly permitted to buy a replacement ticket to their new short destination, use that one instead, and then apply for a whole refund on the original unused ticket. Doing that would be crazy because it would create unnecessary administration costs on both sides, but it would certainly be permitted and it would certainly get the OP the difference in fares back, if that's what they wanted.

In any case, there will be plenty of situations on long journeys where, due to disruption, it is neither possible to continue to the destination nor to return to the origin. Nobody can seriously argue that a refund is unavailable, or that a fee should be paid to claim a partial refund in these circumstances. The conditions have to be interpreted to reflect that.

What I would do in this situation is write to the train company who caused the delay explaining the impact it had on my journey and asking them to decide what to do to make it right. If they decided that the answer was nothing, then I might pursue a refund claim or chargeback.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The same applies if you bought a return, used the outward normally, and then abandoned the return journey only.

I presume you're referring to journeys made using a kind of ticket where a return ticket is only marginally more than a single (e.g. most Off-Peak Day Returns and [Period] Returns). In such a case, if there is a cheaper ticket that the passenger could have bought for their journey - such as a "Saver Half" type of ticket - then arguably there'd be an entitlement to a refund down to this price. But I'll be the first to admit that this wouldn't be an argument likely to be easily accepted!

 

[Starmill]

I presume you're referring to journeys made using a kind of ticket where a return ticket is only marginally more than a single (e.g. most Off-Peak Day Returns and [Period] Returns). In such a case, if there is a cheaper ticket that the passenger could have bought for their journey - such as a "Saver Half" type of ticket - then arguably there'd be an entitlement to a refund down to this price. But I'll be the first to admit that this wouldn't be an argument likely to be easily accepted!

Indeed. I have also heard that there are some retailers who are willing to provide 50% refunds in these circumstances, because they see it as fairer for the customer.

 

[Haywain]

So claiming under 29.2 would cost £10 for the admin fee to get 50p back, a loss of £9.50

I have never heard a case of this being charged or even requested. Customers would normally be told there is no refund due and it is left at that. However, there have been many occasions where customers have stated that they won't pay the admin fee - not that they have actually found they have a choice!

Indeed. I have also heard that there are some retailers who are willing to provide 50% refunds in these circumstances, because they see it as fairer for the customer.

I can remember doing this but the value of it is now generally reduced by the availability of Delay Repay.