Calculating mileage between stations

[infobleep]

Apologies if this has been asked recently but I didn't spot anything from a search.

Where can I go to find the official mileage between pairs of stations?

It use to be in the National Rail Timetable but I couldn't find that. The links seemed to be for local TOC timetables and they don't seem to include mileage.

I'm not interested in the number of miles I travel but in knowing the mileage of routes within 3 miles of the shortest route and even the shortest route.

I'm aware of sites like TrainSplit but sometimes when I put in complex routes it suggests stuff that I told it to ignore. It may be that nothing is available for the route I'm requesting but I'm curious about knowing the millage all the same.

 

[Mike99]

I think it's Rail Miles site that sorts that out

 

[JB_B]

Apologies if this has been asked recently but I didn't spot anything from a search.

Where can I go to find the official mileage between pairs of stations?

It use to be in the National Rail Timetable but I couldn't find that. The links seemed to be for local TOC timetables and they don't seem to include mileage.

I'm not interested in the number of miles I travel but in knowing the mileage of routes within 3 miles of the shortest route and even the shortest route.

I'm aware of sites like TrainSplit but sometimes when I put in complex routes it suggests stuff that I told it to ignore. It may be that nothing is available for the route I'm requesting but I'm curious about knowing the millage all the same.

For NRT mileages ( which the public-facing routeing guide tells you to use ) see the links in @kieron 's post here

National Rail Timetable Mileage File

Network Rail have split the mileages from their timetable files out into a separate file (they have made substantial changes to the arrangement of the timetable, but those aren't my concern here). The NRT web page is here, and the mileage file is here. They seem to have simply copied across the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Note that journey planners don't use these mileages and instead use they distances given in the .RGD file in the routeing guide data feed. Mostly there's a reasonabl-ish match between the two but not always.

You can sign up for that here:-

National Rail Data Portal

opendata.nationalrail.co.uk

Re the +3 mile rule.

(1) I've heard it rumoured that journey planners may in practice apply a different margin - possibly over 3m. ( I've no idea if that is the case.)

(2) Shortest routes are always uneqivocally valid and routes withing 3m usually should be too ( and will normally validated by journey planners) . There's perhaps an academic debate to be had as to whether negative easements could invalidate certain non-shortest routes within 3m of shortest.


(3) If you have a dataset to work with and are looking for routes with 3m you could use e.g. Yen's algorithm to find paths within a certain limit.



As ever, it's a good idea to get an itinerary for the ticket and route you want to use from an accredited retailer.

I think it's Rail Miles site that sorts that out

Railmiles is great but, because it's infrastructure orientated, it won't always give you distances relevant for the routeing guide shortest route rule. For example, starting from Dorchester West heading to Dorchester South, Railmiles will calculate reversing at Dorchester Junction whereas passanger journeys will require a longer trip via Upwey. ( The underlying data for the sources quoted above have known inaccuracies so there are bound to be other mismatches.)

 

[Watershed]

Apologies if this has been asked recently but I didn't spot anything from a search.

Where can I go to find the official mileage between pairs of stations?

It use to be in the National Rail Timetable but I couldn't find that. The links seemed to be for local TOC timetables and they don't seem to include mileage.

I'm not interested in the number of miles I travel but in knowing the mileage of routes within 3 miles of the shortest route and even the shortest route.

I'm aware of sites like TrainSplit but sometimes when I put in complex routes it suggests stuff that I told it to ignore. It may be that nothing is available for the route I'm requesting but I'm curious about knowing the millage all the same.

Bukitlawang is a site which calculates shortest routes by reference to both the National Rail Timetable data and the RJIS data feed used by journey planners. However, it's somewhat out of date (it lacks some recent stations and chords) so I would treat the results with caution.

The Routeing Guide in Detail does not state what source should be used for determining which routes are within 3 miles of the shortest route. The Routeing Guide Instructions state that the NRT should be used to determine the shortest route, but there is no need to refer to the Routeing Guide to follow such a route (it is permitted in the NRCoT).

Accordingly I would say that any data source whose accuracy you are convinced of would suffice. The most accurate of all would probably be using Network Rail's Sectional Appendix to add up mileages, but that's a very labour intensive way of doing it.

 

[infobleep]

Bukitlawang is a site which calculates shortest routes by reference to both the National Rail Timetable data and the RJIS data feed used by journey planners. However, it's somewhat out of date (it lacks some recent stations and chords) so I would treat the results with caution.

The Routeing Guide in Detail does not state what source should be used for determining which routes are within 3 miles of the shortest route. The Routeing Guide Instructions state that the NRT should be used to determine the shortest route, but there is no need to refer to the Routeing Guide to follow such a route (it is permitted in the NRCoT).

Accordingly I would say that any data source whose accuracy you are convinced of would suffice. The most accurate of all would probably be using Network Rail's Sectional Appendix to add up mileages, but that's a very labour intensive way of doing it.

I was using Bukitlawang but someone in another thread pointed out it was out of date so I didn't want to continue using it.

For NRT mileages ( which the public-facing routeing guide tells you to use ) see the links in @kieron 's post here

National Rail Timetable Mileage File

Network Rail have split the mileages from their timetable files out into a separate file (they have made substantial changes to the arrangement of the timetable, but those aren't my concern here). The NRT web page is here, and the mileage file is here. They seem to have simply copied across the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Note that journey planners don't use these mileages and instead use they distances given in the .RGD file in the routeing guide data feed. Mostly there's a reasonabl-ish match between the two but not always.

You can sign up for that here:-

National Rail Data Portal

opendata.nationalrail.co.uk

Re the +3 mile rule.

(1) I've heard it rumoured that journey planners may in practice apply a different margin - possibly over 3m. ( I've no idea if that is the case.)

(2) Shortest routes are always uneqivocally valid and routes withing 3m usually should be too ( and will normally validated by journey planners) . There's perhaps an academic debate to be had as to whether negative easements could invalidate certain non-shortest routes within 3m of shortest.


(3) If you have a dataset to work with and are looking for routes with 3m you could use e.g. Yen's algorithm to find paths within a certain limit.



As ever, it's a good idea to get an itinerary for the ticket and route you want to use from an accredited retailer.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Whilst I hear what you are saying in your last point, the accredited retailers don't explain why a route isn't valid and I want to know this.

It's a niche thing wanting to know this so I need to figure it out myself.

I'm not looking to do lots of automatic calculations of routes. It's more that I have two stations I'm thinking of and I want to calculate the millage for a route between the two. I would like to know, how out the mileage is from being within 3 miles of the shortest route, if it is indeed over 3 miles.

 

[Roger B]

With there now being a scheduled service using the Werrington dive-under, I'm trying to find the distance (in miles & chains) between Marholm Jn and Glinton Jn using the dive-under, and also the distances between New England North Jn and Marholm Jn, Marholm Jn and Helpston Jn, Werrington Jn and Glinton Jn, and between Glinton Jn and Spalding.

RailMiles recognises both Marholm Jn (WRNGTNJ) and Glinton Jn (GLNTNJN), but in response to request for mileage between them, or to/from either from anywhere else states 'No mileage can be identified for this route'.

Can anyone provide this information, please - or point me to a definitive source where this information can be found?

Many thanks

 

[splashoutradio]

RailMiles recognises both Marholm Jn (WRNGTNJ) and Glinton Jn (GLNTNJN), but in response to request for mileage between them, or to/from either from anywhere else states 'No mileage can be identified for this route'.

Can anyone provide this information, please - or point me to a definitive source where this information can be found?

Many thanks

Network Rail's BPLAN data lists the direct route between WRNGTNJ and GLNTNJN as 1761 meters, which is approximately 1.094 miles or 1mile 08chains.

 

[Watershed]

Network Rail's BPLAN data lists the direct route between WRNGTNJ and GLNTNJN as 1761 meters, which is approximately 1.094 miles or 1mile 08chains.

Whereas the Sectional Appendix says it's 1mi64ch.

 

[Roger B]

Whereas the Sectional Appendix says it's 1mi64ch.

Many thanks Watershed - that's much nearer what I expected - I read somewhere that it's about 3km in length.
Does the Sectional Appendix also give distance in miles and chain for Marholm Jn and Glinton Jn from pre-existing locations - eg New England North Jn and Helpston Jn for Marholm Jn, and Werrington Jn and Spalding for Glinton Jn?

 

[greatkingrat]

Think there's a bit of confusion about the codes here - WRNGTNJ is Werrington Jn, not Marholm Jn which is MRHLMJN.

 

[Watershed]

Many thanks Watershed - that's much nearer what I expected - I read somewhere that it's about 3km in length.
Does the Sectional Appendix also give distance in miles and chain for Marholm Jn and Glinton Jn from pre-existing locations - eg New England North Jn and Helpston Jn for Marholm Jn, and Werrington Jn and Spalding for Glinton Jn?

Yes, Marholm Jn is at 78mi63ch (ECM1 mileage) / 19mi64ch (PMJ Stamford line mileage).

Glinton Jn is at 80mi40ch (WEB).

That suggests the distance via the Werrington diveunder is marginally longer at 1mi64ch vs 1mi57ch for the 'old' route. Which seems about right.

 

[Roger B]

Yes, Marholm Jn is at 78mi63ch (ECM1 mileage) / 19mi64ch (PMJ Stamford line mileage).

Glinton Jn is at 80mi40ch (WEB).

That suggests the distance via the Werrington diveunder is marginally longer at 1mi64ch vs 1mi57ch for the 'old' route. Which seems about right.

Spot on - just what I was after - thanks

 

[splashoutradio]

Whereas the Sectional Appendix says it's 1mi64ch.

Unfortunately, it doesn't suprise me - the NR BPLAN dataset is peppered with errors.

 

[norbitonflyer]

With there now being a scheduled service using the Werrington dive-under,

According to PSUL, these are the Mon-Fri 2K17 1454 Doncaster to Peterborough and return working 2K24 1710 Peterborough to Doncaster, which are scheduled to use platform 7 at Peterborough. However, looking at Real Time Trains for the past week, it seems these trains did not run on 18th and 19th, and used platform 2 at Peterborough on 20th and 25th (today), so only actually used the diveunder on two of the last six days it should have run (21st and 22nd). Does anyone know why it sometimes uses the diveunder and sometimes does not? And, is there any way of knowing what it's going to do a few hours in advance? (So there's time to decide whether it's worth heading out to Spalding in the first place)? (There seemed no reason on RTT why it couldn't have used the diveuder and platform 7 today)