Calder Valley late evening 12/12/19

[SteveM70]

Can anyone shed any light on the “operational incident” that led to the 23:19 from Manchester to Leeds being delayed at Walsden for over half an hour? The slightly garbled message from the conductor was that the train in front was route over Copy Pit but the driver “wasn’t allowed to drive that way”.

I presume that means he doesn’t sign the route, but if that’s the case how could he get to Todmorden before anyone realised there was a problem?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How was the problem eventually resolved?

 

[voyagerdude220]

There appears to have been an issue with 2N98 23:04 Manchester Victoria to Todmorden, ahead of your train.

According to Realtime Trains 2N98 passed Walsden 23:31, but didn't arrive at Todmorden until 00:15.

I've heard it may have been wrongly routed, but looking on Traksy, there don't appear to be any points between Walsden and Todmorden. My theory is maybe it arrived at Todmorden on time, but the shunt move was sent to the wrong place and the driver somehow didn't notice the error?

Of course that's all guess work.

 

[Neptune]

Could it be that there was a problem which required the short diversion around Tod curve? Not all drivers and guards sign the diversion (only 4 of 7 links sign it for Leeds guards for instance).

 

[SteveM70]

How was the problem eventually resolved?

I don’t know. All I know is that we eventually moved off around 35 late and once we got to Tod there was no sign of any other trains so the one in front must’ve done more than just move onto the curve to get out of the way

 

[SteveM70]

there don't appear to be any points between Walsden and Todmorden

There aren’t. There’s a trailing crossover immediately east of Todmorden that facilitates trains off the Copy Pit getting into the Manchester bound platform

 

[Whisky Papa]

Could it be that there was a problem which required the short diversion around Tod curve? Not all drivers and guards sign the diversion (only 4 of 7 links sign it for Leeds guards for instance).

2N98 was due to shunt from Todmorden as 5T98 to Signal PN341, where it was due to reverse and run back to form 2J74 back to Manchester at 2355 according to RTT. If anybody could confrim the location of that signal? If it is the one on the Tod Curve and the driver doesn't sign it, I guess the alternatives would be use the trailing crossover at Todmorden without going onto the curve (if that is allowed?) or run ECS to Hebden Bridge and use the crossover there. In any case, it seems a long time to come to a decision.

 

[SteveM70]

As far as I can tell PN341 is the signal immediately beyond Stansfield Hall junction (the northern tip of the Tod triangle) which seems a really odd place to do the reversal when there’s a signal on the curve

https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/halifax#T_TODMRDN

 

[Llama]

PN341 is on the Up East Lancs a short distance on the Copy Pit side of Stansfield Hall Jn. Trains are sometimes booked to reverse there rather than on the curve behind PN318 so that they don't block anything coming from Blackburn to Manchester. But nothing was booked to come that way last night

There would be no need (nor provision) to do any unsignalled move over the trailing crossover at Todmorden Viaduct Jn - there is a ground position light signal (PN316) further on at Hall Royd Jn.

As I understand it 2N98 2304 from Man Vic was booked to run from Man Vic to Todmorden, terminating there rather than continuing to Blackburn as it usually does due to a possession of the East Lancs lines and the Up & Down West Curve (colloquially known as Todmorden Curve). I assume because of that possession it had to shunt behind PN316 ground position light signal at Hall Royd Jn then back into Todmorden up platform where it became 2J74 Todmorden to Man Vic. However this is at odds with realtimetrains which shows a 5T98 booked all week to run from Todmorden to Todmorden via PN341 on the Up East Lancs which is booked to be under T3 possession from 2255 each night so that looks like a planning error to me, I assume 5T98 showed on the driver's diagram the same as it shows on RTT.

I'm assuming that the driver was a Blackburn driver (2N98 is normally booked a Blackburn job as it runs through to Blackburn when there's no engineering work on) who, when offered the main line route at PN320 signal before Todmorden (has a #1 junction indicator for Todmorden Curve, main aspect only for continuing along the Down L&Y towards Hall Royd Jn) refused to take the main line route offered because they had been advised when 'passing out' on the route that they were not competent on any infrastructure beyond Todmorden Viaduct Jn towards Hall Royd Jn - they were only competent to drive onto Todmorden Curve or the East Lancs lines which were under possession.

Edit - could also have been a Man Vic driver who signs Blackburn via Tod but not the Calder Valley and again isn't competent past Todmorden Viaduct Jn on the L&Y lines.

So in a nutshell, driver was booked to do a shunt they were competent to do, this wasn't possible because of the possession, they had been advised when gaining competence on the route that they didn't sign Hall Royd Jn so couldn't do the only shunt left available because of the possession and I presume the possession was lifted/shortened to allow them to eventually shunt onto the curve or behind 341 signal to free the trapped 1E34 Man Vic-Leeds while this was sorted out.

This could've been foreseen if people actually read and understood all of the weekly operating notice - and not just drivers.

 

[Whisky Papa]

As far as I can tell PN341 is the signal immediately beyond Stansfield Hall junction (the northern tip of the Tod triangle) which seems a really odd place to do the reversal when there’s a signal on the curve

https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/halifax#T_TODMRDN

Thanks for the confirmation - ironically, that is almost behind my house! It does seem odd: I thought that the additional services that ran between Manchester and Todmorden once the curve was completed (but before there was sufficient stock to run through to Blackburn) used to reverse on the curve. I didn't live in this house then, but I did work at Todmorden station.

Either way, it would suggest the driver last night didn't sign the curve, or possibly thety did but there was a points/signalling failure that prevented it being used as planned?

 

[Llama]

Thanks for the confirmation - ironically, that is almost behind my house! It does seem odd: I thought that the additional services that ran between Manchester and Todmorden once the curve was completed (but before there was sufficient stock to run through to Blackburn) used to reverse on the curve. I didn't live in this house then, but I did work at Todmorden station.

-They did, they were all worked by Man Vic drivers then and none signed past Tod Curve.

Either way, it would suggest the driver last night didn't sign the curve, or possibly thety did but there was a points/signalling failure that prevented it being used as planned?

They couldn't go on the curve, was under T3 possession.

 

[Whisky Papa]

PN341 is on the Up East Lancs a short distance on the Copy Pit side of Stansfield Hall Jn. Trains are sometimes booked to reverse there rather than on the curve behind PN318 so that they don't block anything coming from Blackburn to Manchester. But nothing was booked to come that way last night

There would be no need (nor provision) to do any unsignalled move over the trailing crossover at Todmorden Viaduct Jn - there is a ground position light signal (PN316) further on at Hall Royd Jn.

As I understand it 2N98 2304 from Man Vic was booked to run from Man Vic to Todmorden, terminating there rather than continuing to Blackburn as it usually does due to a possession of the East Lancs lines and the Up & Down West Curve (colloquially known as Todmorden Curve). I assume because of that possession it had to shunt behind PN316 ground position light signal at Hall Royd Jn then back into Todmorden up platform where it became 2J74 Todmorden to Man Vic. However this is at odds with realtimetrains which shows a 5T98 booked all week to run from Todmorden to Todmorden via PN341 on the Up East Lancs which is booked to be under T3 possession from 2255 each night so that looks like a planning error to me, I assume 5T98 showed on the driver's diagram the same as it shows on RTT.

I'm assuming that the driver was a Blackburn driver (2N98 is normally booked a Blackburn job as it runs through to Blackburn when there's no engineering work on) who, when offered the main line route at PN320 signal before Todmorden (has a #1 junction indicator for Todmorden Curve, main aspect only for continuing along the Down L&Y towards Hall Royd Jn) refused to take the main line route offered because they had been advised when 'passing out' on the route that they were not competent on any infrastructure beyond Todmorden Viaduct Jn towards Hall Royd Jn - they were only competent to drive onto Todmorden Curve or the East Lancs lines which were under possession.

Edit - could also have been a Man Vic driver who signs Blackburn via Tod but not the Calder Valley and again isn't competent past Todmorden Viaduct Jn on the L&Y lines.

So in a nutshell, driver was booked to do a shunt they were competent to do, this wasn't possible because of the possession, they had been advised when gaining competence on the route that they didn't sign Hall Royd Jn so couldn't do the only shunt left available because of the possession and I presume the possession was lifted/shortened to allow them to eventually shunt onto the curve or behind 341 signal to free the trapped 1E34 Man Vic-Leeds while this was sorted out.

This could've been foreseen if people actually read and understood all of the weekly operating notice - and not just drivers.

Thanks for all that. I agree with your the comment in your edit - surely this should have been a Man Vic crew seeing as that was where they were going to finish up after working 2J74 back to Victoria. That said, I never got involved with creating STP crew diagrams, but I know things did not always come out as logically as I would have thought having done the units!

If the possession did cover the whole curve, it would certainly be a planning error, but it does not seem to have had the same consequences the other nights. RTT shows 5T98 operating on Monday night, Cancelled on Tuesday and simply not operating Wednesday and Thursday. Presumably the crews involved were able to reverse on the main line at PN316 and back over the trailing crossover to get out of the way of the following Man Vic - Leeds service? Or as you say, allowed to use the nominally blocked line, which looks to be tha case on Monday.

 

[Llama]

Looking closer at the WON it was only last night that the West Curve was included in the possession so 5T98 would've been ok to go on to the curve earlier in the week (but still wouldn't have been ok onto the Up East Lancs as actually booked - they were under T3 all week)

 

[Whisky Papa]

Looking closer at the WON it was only last night that the West Curve was included in the possession so 5T98 would've been ok to go on to the curve earlier in the week (but still wouldn't have been ok onto the Up East Lancs as actually booked - they were under T3 all week)

A four-night series of possessions that changes part way through is fairly unusual, and is just the sort of thing that might slip through the planning net. It shouldn't, of course, but I could see it happening.