Caledonian Sleeper bidders named

[Eagle]

When is the vote on Scottish devolution again?

September 1997.

The vote on Scottish independence, however, is scheduled for September 2014.

 

[Essexman]

I wouldn't be too unhappy if the Glasgow portion went via Edinburgh, and perhaps set out a bit earlier. One lounge car (positioned in the middle) would probably be adequate for the two portions (lounge car gets less use on lowland than highlnad). What concerns me is what cost savings might be brought in on the highland sleepers.

 

[edwin_m]

The Lowland wouldn't have to run via East Coast to drop off a portion in Edinburgh. It could reverse at Waverley or even take a trip round the South Suburban.

I guess in principle the Highland could also drop a portion in Aberdeen and continue to Inverness, but this would have less cost saving as it would probably need two locos between Edinburgh and Aberdeen and a train of this length might cause other problems too.

 

[island]

Maybe it's just me, but a franchise operating 24 services per week is surely going to lack economies of scale on a horrendous level? How many guards/drivers/stewards would they need to cover holidays/illness? Seems like there would be an awful lot more people needed if it's separate from any other TOC.

 

[Aictos]

If the stock is just going to be refurbished, what improvements could we see?

I'm tempted to say wifi and power sockets in berths and for the seated passengers, would this be too much for the 90 to handle considering the number of carriages it has to haul between Edinburgh and Euston for the Highland portion alone though?

As to wifi, it's no more expensive to install these days so why not?

What do you guys think a refurbishment would cover?

 

[Deerfold]

Maybe it's just me, but a franchise operating 24 services per week is surely going to lack economies of scale on a horrendous level? How many guards/drivers/stewards would they need to cover holidays/illness? Seems like there would be an awful lot more people needed if it's separate from any other TOC.

Is it not effectively run like this already?

 

[dcsprior]

Maybe it's just me, but a franchise operating 24 services per week is surely going to lack economies of scale on a horrendous level? How many guards/drivers/stewards would they need to cover holidays/illness? Seems like there would be an awful lot more people needed if it's separate from any other TOC.

I thought that drivers and guards were from DBS anyway? And for back-office support, all of the bidders operate other franchises so could presumably pool this?

 

[Mainliner]

Hopefully the new franchise will have a dedicated booking system, as the current one is rubbish compared to the former system, with fares shown not appearing to relate to sleeper trains, and vice-versa, no sign of bargain berths, etc. - hardly designed to encourage use, I've looked several times and given up.

 

[Optimo]

Hopefully the new franchise will have a dedicated booking system, as the current one is rubbish compared to the former system, with fares shown not appearing to relate to sleeper trains, and vice-versa, no sign of bargain berths, etc. - hardly designed to encourage use, I've looked several times and given up.

Indeed - the effective hidden charge of allowing you to search on to the 'Caledonian Sleeper' site for a price (with a little 'bed' icon on it), then it later shows 'Berths Available' - but for for an additional fee, which must be reserved.

The initial price of the ticket is calculated for your total group, but then the berth fees are per person. You think it's bad that you are asked to pay an additional fee on top of the price first shown - then you get hit with it multiple times, for each member of your party. Feels very amateurish.

Just paid £230.60 per person for a super offpeak return sleeper from Euston - Aviemore. It is an enjoyable way to travel but holy cr@p do you get hammered if you can't find a bargain berth.

If the trains get refurbed, I won't miss the 4am fire alarms, which we are told to ignore "unless the guard knocks on your down, consider it a false alarm - probably just smoke from the brakes". Doesn't stop you getting abruptly woken up in the wee hours...

 

[bnm]

The Lowland wouldn't have to run via East Coast to drop off a portion in Edinburgh. It could reverse at Waverley or even take a trip round the South Suburban.

Going round the South Suburban requires either diesel traction or for that line to be electrified.

 

[87015]

I thought that drivers and guards were from DBS anyway? And for back-office support, all of the bidders operate other franchises so could presumably pool this?

IIRC the 67 hauled legs are Scotrail drivers, DB for the electric bits... You wouldn't get Fort Bill - Waverley and back in a shift so that won't work too well stand alone.

 

[Pumbaa]

Guards and crew are directly employed - all should be completely separate links to regular daytime work.

I though only Bill drivers did the 67 turns, the Abers and Invers were still DBS crewed?

 

[Liam]

IIRC, A Fort William Scotrail man takes the 67 to Rannoch, the DBS man comes up passenger on the Scotrail service.

 

[daikilo]

Is it not effectively run like this already?

Maybe, so just how big is the DB Arriva appetite (no doubt their purse is fathomless). They can do an excellent job with specific services such as Holyhead-Cardiff and vv if officials dictate (maybe they should publish the planned first class inclusive cooked-on-board menu of grouse/fresh salmon etc. etc.). Could make sense if the next step is Arriva Trains Scotland.

 

[Blindtraveler]

oh god forbid! I still think First have a good chance as the sleapers havnt suffered under them despite the lack of investment.↲by and large there management of Scotrail is largely popular even if there industrial relations have been shaky at times↲

 

[Yew]

Caledonian Sleeper is far more complex operationally than the Night Riviera.

Although the Caledonian has probably always been more complex, FGW did significantly simplify the Night Riviera. The Lowland for instance, if operated via the East Coast, could drop off the Edinburgh portion (left with a shore supply) and work through to Glasgow - I suspect that the bidders have come up with some interesting ways to cut costs from the operation.

An east coast sleeper sounds good, might even add a new market. If there is significant watford-edinburgh traffic then I guess a highland coach could just be dumped at Edinburgh.

 

[edwin_m]

I think it's unlikely that the operator would want to split their already thin resources between Euston and Kings Cross. Either the trains would end up being stabled at different London depots (needing two sets of staff to do the beds etc, or staff transferring from one place to another), or one train would have to make quite a convoluted journey to reach a common stabling location.

 

[IanXC]

Absolutely, 2 London Termini seems incredibly unlikely. The only ways I can see an East Coast sleeper would be replacing the current either as a result of Euston's redevelopment or to enable via Edinburgh. I think I was being a bit silly not and didn't think about an electrified route from Euston to Edinburgh from the east!

 

[Eagle]

Of course it's possible that you could have both sleepers running from King's Cross, but then you'd have to lose the Highland passengers from Crewe and Preston (of which there are quite a few). Unless of course you instead try and attract passengers to Doncaster or York, say. Not a direct replacement by a long way, but might generate similar passenger numbers.

 

[HSTEd]

You will soon be able to go from Euston to Edinburgh approaching from the East.
I assume you will be able to reach TPE-North from the WCML and from there you could go through Leeds and onto the line to York which is also being electrified?

That might take a while though... although its not as if we are in a hurry.

 

[Eagle]

Via Earlestown, I assume, so you don't have to reverse in Manchester?

If EWR part 2 ever happens (and given the lines it's connecting it's a cert to be electrified) then there'll be an easier electric route between Euston and the ECML. Possibly even quicker than the current way which is to reverse at Wembley.

 

[edwin_m]

I think Stalybridge-Stockport is being done as an infill which would offer another Transpennine route.

 

[tbtc]

I think Stalybridge-Stockport is being done as an infill which would offer another Transpennine route.

The Caledonian Sleeper running via Stockport and Stalybridge?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think Stalybridge-Stockport is being done as an infill which would offer another Transpennine route.

It's not on the list yet (Guide Bridge to Stalybridge is).
The business case for Heaton Norris-Guide Bridge must be very low, with only the weekly parliamentary.

 

[Eagle]

The business case for Heaton Norris-Guide Bridge must be very low, with only the weekly parliamentary.

And all the freight, and diversionary usage, and the possibility of an hourly service (which TfGM are pushing for)? It's hardly a rural backwater.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And all the freight, and diversionary usage, and the possibility of an hourly service (which TfGM are pushing for)? It's hardly a rural backwater.

Admittedly they are doing Ashburys-Philips Park for flexibility (for ECS to/from Ardwick I suppose).
Stockport-Guide Bridge would also have to include Denton-Ashton Moss.
But anyway it's not on the current list, and there will be busier local lines vying for priority (CLC, Hazel Grove-Buxton, routes via Romiley etc).
You can discount electric freight until DB and Freightliner take an interest in the "electric spine".

 

[rebmcr]

You can discount electric freight until DB and Freightliner take an interest in the "electric spine".

That's a bit chicken/egg though. It certainly makes sense to tack on a few extra miles to the existing program.

 

[tbtc]

And all the freight, and diversionary usage, and the possibility of an hourly service (which TfGM are pushing for)? It's hardly a rural backwater.

There's dozens of routes that see at least a half hourly frequency that aren't on the electrification agenda and we are discussing electrifying a line with one passenger service a week (on the basis that it might get a frequency increase and it could be handy for diverting the sleeper)?

 

[edwin_m]

Stalybridge-Stockport was certainly being considered for infill electrification - north of Guide Bridge will be done as part of Transpennine and the section through Denton would provide some useful freight opportunities and might even be justified on the grounds of strengthening the power supply. However I don't know if any decision has been made on whether to include it.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Stalybridge-Stockport was certainly being considered for infill electrification - north of Guide Bridge will be done as part of Transpennine and the section through Denton would provide some useful freight opportunities and might even be justified on the grounds of strengthening the power supply. However I don't know if any decision has been made on whether to include it.

It will offer no freight oppurtunites unless Huddersfield to Wakefield Kirkgate and Castleford/ECML/Leeds is electrified as Morley tunnel is not being cleared for anything. And no paths are to be provided through it for freight either.

Suggest doing it around then to be honest... unless its very cheap to add now.

Surely from 2020 the best route (if you insist on coming from east) would be Euston-Crewe-Man Pic-Man Vic- York-Newcastle-Edinburgh-Glasgow

Or Euston-EW Rail-Bedford-Sheffield-Leeds/Doncaster-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh-Glasgow.