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Caledonian Sleeper Class 92's

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59CosG95

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Surely the WCML can cope with a 92 as they have Pendolini regenerating - or do they not?
Might it be something to do with the back EMF generated by the 92s being much larger and messier than those generated by the 390s?
It may also be a problem caused by a lack of auto-transformer feeding across sections of the route (south of Bourne End Jn; Whitmore - Crewe - Weaver Jn; Euxton Jn - Preston - Lancaster - Carnforth; north of Great Strickland), although I'm not 100% certain on that.
HS1 is auto-transformer fed throughout.
 
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hwl

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Might it be something to do with the back EMF generated by the 92s being much larger and messier than those generated by the 390s?
It may also be a problem caused by a lack of auto-transformer feeding across sections of the route (south of Bourne End Jn; Whitmore - Crewe - Weaver Jn; Euxton Jn - Preston - Lancaster - Carnforth; north of Great Strickland), although I'm not 100% certain on that.
HS1 is auto-transformer fed throughout.
The rules on HS1 /tunnel feeding back as regards voltage parameters etc. may be different to NR's and the 92s were designed for the tunnels rules. It could be really simple...
Some 92s have had equipment replaced by GBRf recently of course.
 

themiller

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The rules on HS1 /tunnel feeding back as regards voltage parameters etc. may be different to NR's and the 92s were designed for the tunnels rules. It could be really simple...
Some 92s have had equipment replaced by GBRf recently of course.
The 92s were also designed for use on the British electrified network where they would have spent the majority of their time.
 

hwl

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The 92s were also designed for use on the British electrified network where they would have spent the majority of their time.
But was regen allowed on BR network - regen parameters may have been set for tunnel etc with just rheostatic on BR?
 

BRX

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Seems like a big old waste of energy not to have it working on NR - all just thrown away as heat. Not very helpful in the arguments of night train vs plane travel sustainability! But given the amount of diesel haulage that goes on under wires, it appears evident that there's not much incentive for energy efficiency built into NR's pricing structures.
 

themiller

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I’ve just spoken with a Virgin Pendolino driver who confirmed that they can regenerate on the whole of the routes where they operate! And before anyone mentions the north Wales coast, I mean under the wires!;)
Spoke with a TPE driver who confirmed that 350s can regenerate on all of the routes that they operate on.
 

TimboM

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Given 92s took many months to obtain clearance to run under their own power on NR metals and are still to this day restricted to certain routes due to the legendry (or is that mythical?) EMF waves they give off and the need to draw the power of a small northern town, it's not a major surprise NR don't want them pumping electricity back into their 'heritage' overhead line equipment.
 

59CosG95

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I’ve just spoken with a Virgin Pendolino driver who confirmed that they can regenerate on the whole of the routes where they operate! And before anyone mentions the north Wales coast, I mean under the wires!;)
Spoke with a TPE driver who confirmed that 350s can regenerate on all of the routes that they operate on.
I think it might be a case of EMF interference generated - GTOs (as used by the 92s) tend to be messier than IGBTs (as used in more modern stock), and there's every likelihood that NR have said "if it can't regenerate on this part of this route, it can't regenerate anywhere on this route". Unless I'm mistaken, routes with track circuits are the main culprit for being interfered with, while axle counters seem to be OK.
Given 92s took many months to obtain clearance to run under their own power on NR metals and are still to this day restricted to certain routes due to the legendry (or is that mythical?) EMF waves they give off and the need to draw the power of a small northern town, it's not a major surprise NR don't want them pumping electricity back into their 'heritage' overhead line equipment.
Perhaps maximum fault current may be "at fault" here? ;)
Certainly stands to reason that ATF-enabled stretches of the WCML might be passable for it, but those stretches without it (and the same for the ECML) make it difficult to allow it throughout, so it's just easier to give a blanket ban rather than having lots of piecemeal sections of regen-capable OLE.
 

TimboM

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I think it might be a case of EMF interference generated - GTOs (as used by the 92s) tend to be messier than IGBTs (as used in more modern stock), and there's every likelihood that NR have said "if it can't regenerate on this part of this route, it can't regenerate anywhere on this route". Unless I'm mistaken, routes with track circuits are the main culprit for being interfered with, while axle counters seem to be OK.

Perhaps maximum fault current may be "at fault" here? ;)
Certainly stands to reason that ATF-enabled stretches of the WCML might be passable for it, but those stretches without it (and the same for the ECML) make it difficult to allow it throughout, so it's just easier to give a blanket ban rather than having lots of piecemeal sections of regen-capable OLE.
That may well be a reason - as far as I know you can't easily switch re-gen on or off in a 92 either (e.g. as it passed through different sections). There's different modes including "ET/AC" (EuroTunnel/HS1) and "BR/AC" for Network Rail. Assuming they do re-gen under the Tunnel/HS1 wires, this will most likely be activated as part of that ET/AC mode; and when in BR mode it's off.

Incidentally the GBRf 92s now have IGBTs in place of GTOs, not that it would change any of the above.
 

43096

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Incidentally the GBRf 92s now have IGBTs in place of GTOs, not that it would change any of the above.
I thought they now had IGBT auxiliary converters but retained their original GTO traction/main converters?
 

TimboM

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Overhauled 92032 leaving Crewe for Wembley on Sunday (ahead of moving to Dollands Moor yesterday):

 

43096

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Overhauled 92032 leaving Crewe for Wembley on Sunday (ahead of moving to Dollands Moor yesterday):

Interesting that it hasn’t received the replacement headlights that those previously done have.
 

BRX

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A (welcome) surprise working for 92032 this evening: a last minute plan to use it to haul the Daventry-Dollands Moor 'water train' from Wembley onwards.

Rare to see a 92 working on 3rd rail now, and even rarer to see one hauling a 'real' train.

 

delticdave

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A (welcome) surprise working for 92032 this evening: a last minute plan to use it to haul the Daventry-Dollands Moor 'water train' from Wembley onwards.

Rare to see a 92 working on 3rd rail now, and even rarer to see one hauling a 'real' train.

Q? Any idea how much the train weighs? I counted 46 wagons & bottled water isn't a light payload. (+ a dead 66....).
 

TimboM

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Q? Any idea how much the train weighs? I counted 46 wagons & bottled water isn't a light payload. (+ a dead 66....).
It’s empty going that way, so not that heavy.

They can range between 650-950 tonnes so about 800 tonnes average, plus the dead 66 (127 tonnes) so about 1,000 tonnes altogether.

The loaded water going the other way is max weight for the tunnel (1800 tonnes).
 
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delticdave

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It’s empty going that way, so not that heavy.

They can range between 650-950 tonnes so about 800 tonnes average, plus the dead 66 (127 tonnes) so about 1,000 tonnes altogether.

The loaded water going the other way is max weight for the tunnel (1800 tonnes).

Thank you, Kind Sir. (I didn't realize that it was going to the Chunnel & therefore empty wagons
........)
 

43096

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032 doesn't have Dellner couplers for the Mk5s I don't think?
No, it and 92044 (currently at Brush for overhaul) are GBRf’s tunnel freight locos and haven’t had the Dellner and other mods for working the new sleepers.
 

TimboM

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potentially a bit off topic, but how often are GBRF's 92s used on actual freight?
The ten 92s modified for the Sleeper very rarely haul freight these days - they're pretty much exclusively used on the Beds and all 10 are typically needed. Also, the two freight workings GB used to use 92s on regularly - Gartson-Dagenham STVA and 6S94 china clays to Irvine have now gone over to DRS (STVA) and 66s via Settle & Carlisle (china clays).

The two freight/tunnel-only ones (032/044) work regularly out of Dollands Moor hauling freight through the tunnel and up HS1; although with both going through Brush for overhaul, it's just been the one of the two GBCT 92s in action for several months now.
 

Jamesrob637

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If that were a CS liveried example on the front, it would be a modern-day equivalent of when Virgin 57s used to haul the Chirk logs in terms of a passenger loco hauling freight.

Or very occasionally in the 90s you'd see an InterCity 47 hauling coal hoppers which was funny.
 

Murray J

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I've seen a photo of a CS liveried 92 operating the last working of a freight service before it passed to another FOC, I'll See if I can find the photo later.
Another equivalent to that is TPE 68s being used on engineering trains, and sometimes used on intermodals with Chiltern liveried examples.
 

TimboM

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I've seen a photo of a CS liveried 92 operating the last working of a freight service before it passed to another FOC, I'll See if I can find the photo later.
Another equivalent to that is TPE 68s being used on engineering trains, and sometimes used on intermodals with Chiltern liveried examples.
It was 92006 - working its first freight train in 14 years and the last GBRf working on the Garston-Dagenham STVA before it went to DRS - photo here: https://flic.kr/p/2iwGLGg

The CS-liveried 92s worked the STVAs ("cars") quite a lot - 014 was one of those that was quite often on the 6L48/6X41 circuit for several weeks: https://flic.kr/p/DQwdGX

I personally don't see the similarity to the other examples mentioned - 68s, 47s and 57s are all mixed-traffic locos. Class 92s are purpose built freight and sleeper locos. They also all belong to GB Railfreight to use as necessary to fulfil the contracts they have (compare that to, say, the TPE-liveried 68s which are sub-leased to TPE, or the 57s which were Virgin Trains' locos).

The colour of the paint on the outside doesn't change the fact it's a 6,700hp Co-Co freight machine owned by a Freight Operating Company. When it comes to hauling freight on Network Rail, the CS, GBRf and grey one(s) are all the same animal.
 

TimboM

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For reference (and to illustrate the paintwork is somewhat random):

GBRf 92s:
GBST pool (UK freight, Mk5 sleeper and tunnel capable) - 010, 018, 038 (CS livery); 028, 043 (GBRf livery)
GBSL pool (UK freight and Mk5 sleeper, NOT tunnel) - 006, 014, 023, 033 (CS livery); 020 (GBRf livery)
GBCT pool (UK freight and tunnel capable, NOT sleeper) - 032 (GBRf livery); 044 (Triple Grey livery, for now...)
 

59CosG95

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For reference (and to illustrate the paintwork is somewhat random):

GBRf 92s:
GBST pool (UK freight, Mk5 sleeper and tunnel capable) - 010, 018, 038 (CS livery); 028, 043 (GBRf livery)
GBSL pool (UK freight and Mk5 sleeper, NOT tunnel) - 006, 014, 023, 033 (CS livery); 020 (GBRf livery)
GBCT pool (UK freight and tunnel capable, NOT sleeper) - 032 (GBRf livery); 044 (Triple Grey livery, for now...)
To break down the pool codes a bit, am I right in guessing that:
GBST = GBRf, Sleeper + Tunnel;
GBSL = GBRf, Sleeper;
GBCT = GBRf, Channel Tunnel?
 

TimboM

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To break down the pool codes a bit, am I right in guessing that:
GBST = GBRf, Sleeper + Tunnel;
GBSL = GBRf, Sleeper;
GBCT = GBRf, Channel Tunnel?
Yes, that’s about right. GB on the whole try and come up with pool codes that make sense, eg GBTG for the 60s, GBDF for the 47s.

Some (esp with other operators) are more random on the face of it at least. The DB 92s operational in the UK are WFBC for example.
 
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