Caledonian Sleeper Delay Repay

[asparagus]

I am surprised at the reasons provided by Caledonian Sleeper for rejecting a recent Delay Repay claim.

• Date of travel: 30/12/2024
• From: Dumbarton Central (DBC)
• To: Spean Bridge (SBR)
• Planned service: 06:17 Caledonian Sleeper Service to Fort William (FTW)
• Scheduled arrival time: 09:38
• Actual arrival time: 11:15
• Delay experienced: 97 minutes
• Ticket type: Off-Peak Day Return
• Ticket cost: £32.60
• Expected compensation: 50% * £32.60 = £16.30

My ticket was an Off-Peak Day Return from Dalmuir (DMR) to Mallaig (MLG), but I chose to start and end at intermediate stations.

Their most recent reply stated:

Thank you for your reply detailing why you think you are entitled to delay repay compensation.

The ticket you have provided is for a journey from Dalmuir to Fort William on our service and then to Mallaig on the 1218 Scotrail service. Although you chose to depart our service at Spean Bridge, your delay repay compensation is calculated based on the destination of your ticket. Your booked destination on our service was to Fort William. As this service was retimed to 12pm, the delay repay compensation is calculated against this arrival time. Our service arrived in Fort William at 1133, which you can view at the following link to Real Time Trains- Realtime Trains | 1Y11 0450 Edinburgh to Fort William | 30/12/2024

I can then see that your booked service to Mallaig was due to depart from Fort William at 1218, this means that the arrival time of our service allowed sufficient time for you to connect to your 1218 service to Mallaig which arrived at Mallaig with a 24 minute delay.

Therefore, as the arrival time at your booked destination was not delayed by 30 minutes or more, you are not entitled to delay repay compensation.

I find this surprising as they are suggesting that any compensation would be paid on a hypothetical delay had I used the full validity of the ticket and strictly followed the printed itinerary, given that my ticket was flexible.

My detailed prior response (pdf attached), refers to the NRCoT and their Passenger Charter, specifically “arrival time at the destination station” from NRCoT Section 32.1 instead, which I interpreted as Spean Bridge and not Mallaig.

For reference, their first response was:

Thank you for your Delay Repay Claim. This journey had a retimed arrival due to weather warnings in the area. When a service is retimed, the delay repay calculations are based on the new arrival time. On checking, as the journey arrived within 30 minutes of its stated time, no compensation is due.

Note that whilst Fort William was retimed (just before 22:00 the night before), none of the intermediate stations (including Spean Bridge) were.

I am interested in any thoughts on how to approach this, apart from restating how Delay Repay is based on the actual journey undertaken and actual delay experienced, unless I am misunderstanding something. I don't think their use of "booked" has any relation to Delay Repay either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are wrong. Delay Repay is based on the journey made (even if a short journey) provided the ticket was valid to make it, e.g. didn't bar break of journey in the restriction code. Claiming you made a longer journey when you did not would be fraudulent.

Though to be honest I also consider this "retiming" once the train is underway to be highly dubious practice! (Had they also retimed at Spean Bridge?)

The booked itinerary on a flexible ticket has no relevance whatsoever.

 

[HandyHat]

You might find it helpful to read the discussion about the retiming of the sleeper and its affect on delay repay here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caledonian-sleeper.176365/page-570

 

[JamieL]

The ticket is for Dalmuir to Mallaig. Arrival time in Fort William was in ample time to get the Mallaig connection as per the schedule. Why would delay repay apply? Furthermore, the customer boarded the service at Dalmuir in the morning after the service had already been retimed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ticket is for Dalmuir to Mallaig. Arrival time in Fort William was in ample time to get the Mallaig connection as per the schedule. Why would delay repay apply?

Because DR is on the journey actually made, not the ticketed destination. You cannot claim DR based on a journey not actually made.

The dubious "retiming" may knacker it (but is grossly dishonest) though.

 

[Scotrail84]

Because DR is on the journey actually made, not the ticketed destination. You cannot claim DR based on a journey not actually made.

The dubious "retiming" may knacker it (but is grossly dishonest) though.

It shouldn't be allowed, companies can just 'retime' services and get out of DR payments.

 

[BRX]

Presumably one reason they don't retime the intermediate stops is that they could then have problems with people missing the train (in theory at least) if they are boarding at those stops and the train leaves "early" compared to the retimed timetable?

I'm never quite clear exactly what the rules about delay repay are when there is exceptionally bad weather - ie, a delay really is no fault of the train operator. A better solution might be to make the delay repay conditions clearer on this? Because otherwise it sets up incentives for the TOCs that aren't really in passengers' interests. For example, it creates an incentive simply to cancel a service rather than try and run it even when it's inevitable it's going to be delayed. Some credit should be due to CS that they often still run their services during bad weather instead of simply cancelling them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm never quite clear exactly what the rules about delay repay are when there is exceptionally bad weather - ie, a delay really is no fault of the train operator

The rules are very clear. Delay Repay is a "no-fault" scheme and is payable regardless of the cause of the delay. The simple fact of arriving at your intended destination (which may not be the destination on the ticket if finishing short) later than the timetable is sufficient for it to be paid.

Because otherwise it sets up incentives for the TOCs that aren't really in passengers' interests. For example, it creates an incentive simply to cancel a service rather than try and run it even when it's inevitable it's going to be delayed.

No, it doesn't, because it doesn't matter whether the delayed arrival was caused by a cancellation or not - the only relevant fact is that the passenger arrived at their intended final destination for which the ticket was valid after the time the timetable on a valid itinerary said they would. It's literally that simple - nothing else matters.

 

[BRX]

No, it doesn't, because it doesn't matter whether the delayed arrival was caused by a cancellation or not - the only relevant fact is that the passenger arrived at their intended final destination for which the ticket was valid after the time the timetable on a valid itinerary said they would. It's literally that simple - nothing else matters.

If the TOC cancels a service (with some prior notice), they have to refund the passenger, but they also don't have to incur the cost of running the train. I don't think they have to additionally compensate the passenger do they - other than allowing them to travel on a subsequent service?

On the other hand if they run the service late, they have to refund the passenger and also incur the cost of running the train. Additionally, they might have to compensate for the cost of things like taxis or overnight accommodation.

Basically by deciding to run the service, don't they set up an expectation that the passenger can travel and get to where they want at he time they want, whereas if they cancel it with sufficient notice, the expectations are different?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the TOC cancels a service (with some prior notice), they have to refund the passenger, but they also don't have to incur the cost of running the train. I don't think they have to additionally compensate the passenger do they - other than allowing them to travel on a subsequent service?

If it's cancelled in advance correct. But if they know they won't be able to run it, then it's indeed better that they do that than that people are caught out on the day. Emergency timetables are always preferable to random cancellations - nobody but enthusiasts travelling for fun *wants* to be delayed. So if DR incentivises this behaviour, that's a benefit, not a downside.

 

[BRX]

If it's cancelled in advance correct. But if they know they won't be able to run it, then it's indeed better that they do that than that people are caught out on the day. Emergency timetables are always preferable to random cancellations - nobody but enthusiasts travelling for fun *wants* to be delayed. So if DR incentivises this behaviour, that's a benefit, not a downside.

Well, this is true if we accept the practice of re-timing services by 2200 the previous day, but are there any clear rules on when this is or isn't acceptable? Do the TOCs have to demonstrate that the retiming is due to something genuinely beyond their control, and that it's proportionate?

 

[JamieL]

The rules are very clear. Delay Repay is a "no-fault" scheme and is payable regardless of the cause of the delay. The simple fact of arriving at your intended destination (which may not be the destination on the ticket if finishing short) later than the timetable is sufficient for it to be paid.

Where is definition of "destination station" specified including its scope of incorporating any station stops before the ticketed destination?

 

[Starmill]

If the TOC cancels a service (with some prior notice), they have to refund the passenger, but they also don't have to incur the cost of running the train. I don't think they have to additionally compensate the passenger do they - other than allowing them to travel on a subsequent service?

The refund is at the customer's choice. If it's paid, then the customer can't travel, so that becomes the end of that.

Well, this is true if we accept the practice of re-timing services by 2200 the previous day, but are there any clear rules on when this is or isn't acceptable? Do the TOCs have to demonstrate that the retiming is due to something genuinely beyond their control, and that it's proportionate?

Retimings after booking are irrelevant unless the consumer is a) notified about the change and b) agrees to it, and there is consideration.

I am surprised at the reasons provided by Caledonian Sleeper for rejecting a recent Delay Repay claim.

• Date of travel: 30/12/2024
• From: Dumbarton Central (DBC)
• To: Spean Bridge (SBR)
• Planned service: 06:17 Caledonian Sleeper Service to Fort William (FTW)
• Scheduled arrival time: 09:38
• Actual arrival time: 11:15
• Delay experienced: 97 minutes
• Ticket type: Off-Peak Day Return
• Ticket cost: £32.60
• Expected compensation: 50% * £32.60 = £16.30

My ticket was an Off-Peak Day Return from Dalmuir (DMR) to Mallaig (MLG), but I chose to start and end at intermediate stations.

Their most recent reply stated:

I find this surprising as they are suggesting that any compensation would be paid on a hypothetical delay had I used the full validity of the ticket and strictly followed the printed itinerary, given that my ticket was flexible.

My detailed prior response (pdf attached), refers to the NRCoT and their Passenger Charter, specifically “arrival time at the destination station” from NRCoT Section 32.1 instead, which I interpreted as Spean Bridge and not Mallaig.

For reference, their first response was:

Note that whilst Fort William was retimed (just before 22:00 the night before), none of the intermediate stations (including Spean Bridge) were.

I am interested in any thoughts on how to approach this, apart from restating how Delay Repay is based on the actual journey undertaken and actual delay experienced, unless I am misunderstanding something. I don't think their use of "booked" has any relation to Delay Repay either.

You could try emailing Trainsplit customer support asking them to support your claim with a download of data that was shown at the time which your booking was made.

 

[Adam Williams]

Although you chose to depart our service at Spean Bridge, your delay repay compensation is calculated based on the destination of your ticket

Just nonsense.

You could try emailing Trainsplit customer support asking them to support your claim with a download of data that was shown at the time which your booking was made.

This is good advice from Starmill, @asparagus - TrainSplit stores a copy of all search results (which includes all of the legs and train records) associated with purchases for at least 6 months, and will happily write you a letter with a copy of the data from the time-of-search and a reminder of the break-of-journey rights permitted by the ticket you held.

 

[asparagus]

My follow-up response, which reiterated the Delay Repay calculation method from NRCoT (pdf attached), resulted in a shorter:

Thank you for your reply.

Although break of journey is permitted with your ticket type, delay repay is only compensable for the journey on your ticket.

Therefore, you are not entitled to delay repay compensation.

Perhaps the next step is to request a "deadlock" letter? Their complaints procedure (https://sleeper.scot/media/n5olcfel/22527_cs_complaints_handling_policy_mar_2023.pdf) seems to exclude Delay Repay in Section 6.2.

On a separate note, in NRCoT Part B: Introduction, it states:

These Conditions apply to travel within Great Britain only and are governed by the law of England and Wales, except where a Ticket is bought in Scotland for travel wholly within Scotland, in which case these Conditions will be governed by Scots law.

I purchased the ticket in England (online), so despite the journey being wholly in Scotland, it would be the law of England and Wales that applies?

 

[All Line Rover]

That's right.

 

[MrJeeves]

I'd ask how split ticket delay repay is meant to work and if that means someone would have to submit N separate claims and see if they get caught in a catch-22. You can always then forward the RDG-issued splits and delay repay doc that's been published on the forum before.

Good luck with the ombudsman.

 

[Starmill]

Perhaps the next step is to request a "deadlock" letter?

That's definitely the next step I would take.

If you got any hard evidence of the actual journey you made to go with your photos such as a Google timeline that could help too, although I am not sure it's really needed.

 

[asparagus]

Update: After going to the Rail Ombudsman, Caledonian Sleeper offered the requested £16.30 as a gesture of goodwill during the first mediation stage which I accepted. Thanks all.

 

[robbeech]

Update: After going to the Rail Ombudsman, Caledonian Sleeper offered the requested £16.30 as a gesture of goodwill during the first mediation stage which I accepted. Thanks all.

Well done on getting the value requested. You’re a better person than I as they’d likely have had their gesture of goodwill thrown in their metaphorical face with a request to pay the contractually obliged compensation of the same value but I’m (often unnecessarily) petty about that sort of thing.

The result is good for you, but it’s proof that they are happy to continue to operate unlawfully moving forwards and hope to get away with it as often as possible, which will be almost every time.