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Caledonian Sleeper discussion

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BRX

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I'm not sure that deciding to market their sleeper train as a "hotel" absolves them of blame for removing something that's not abnormal for a sleeper train, from their sleeper train.

Removing the option for shared cabins doesn't provide any advantage at all for the passenger. It gives the passenger fewer options and increases the cost of travel. It's likely to increase the number of empty berths travelling up and down the country. I don't understand why anyone would think it's a positive move.
 
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TimboM

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I'm not sure that deciding to market their sleeper train as a "hotel" absolves them of blame for removing something that's not abnormal for a sleeper train, from their sleeper train.

Removing the option for shared cabins doesn't provide any advantage at all for the passenger. It gives the passenger fewer options and increases the cost of travel. It's likely to increase the number of empty berths travelling up and down the country. I don't understand why anyone would think it's a positive move.

It will be interesting to see what the 'market' makes of the change and whether they end up having to go back to the option of sharing as, like you say, berths end up being empty and they are 'forced' to consider alternative (or old!) ways of getting backs on beds.
 

TimboM

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87002 involved tonight btw - looks like it'll be on 1S26.

92014 suffered suspected wheelflats on the Edinburgh portion last night and 86401 still out of action at Craigentinny, so need to get another loco up north ASAP.
 

Kite159

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The No Sharing Berths rule wouldn't be as bad if there were some cheaper berths, i.e. a small handful per service for ~ £60 on a first come first serve basis
 

leightonbd

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I see you can now board the Lowlander at Euston from 10pm, which to my mind is a significant benefit - sometimes hanging around till 2245 or so dragged a bit.

Does anyone know if the lounge access entry time (which I think is/was 2 hrs before departure) has changed at all?
 

Tim R-T-C

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I'm not sure that deciding to market their sleeper train as a "hotel" absolves them of blame for removing something that's not abnormal for a sleeper train, from their sleeper train.

Abnormal for a sleeper train perhaps, but how many people routinely travel by sleeper train? Most people wanting to try the sleeper for the first time are unlikely to realise that they would be expected to share their room with another person.

Removing the option for shared cabins doesn't provide any advantage at all for the passenger.

Aside from ameliorating the worry that a lot of people have of needing to share a room with a stranger. It has deterred me from using the Caledonian beds and regular posts on this forum are of a similar tone.

It gives the passenger fewer options and increases the cost of travel. It's likely to increase the number of empty berths travelling up and down the country. I don't understand why anyone would think it's a positive move.

This all depends how much the cost changes as a result of the decision. I'm sure many people would pay a small premium for their own private berth.
 

TimboM

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1M11 has 92044 tonight

To complete the line-ups for the main runs under the wires:
1S25 Northbound Highlander - 92018 (to Waverley)
1M16 Southbound Highlander - 92033* (from Waverley)
1C11/1B26 Lowlander Edinburgh portion - 90046

Wembley/Euston ECS - 86101
Pomade/Glasgow ECS - 47749
 

Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
I fear that unless they can guarantee new trains and solo rooms they are sitting on an information time bomb here as giving this sort of info out now will raise customer expectations particularly of private accommodation and then they will obviously be disappointed on the night and the poor train crew will get it
 

BRX

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Abnormal for a sleeper train perhaps, but how many people routinely travel by sleeper train? Most people wanting to try the sleeper for the first time are unlikely to realise that they would be expected to share their room with another person.



Aside from ameliorating the worry that a lot of people have of needing to share a room with a stranger. It has deterred me from using the Caledonian beds and regular posts on this forum are of a similar tone.



This all depends how much the cost changes as a result of the decision. I'm sure many people would pay a small premium for their own private berth.
But currently you have the choice to pay the premium to have your own berth. You can choose. You can be completely clear at the time of booking whether you want to share a cabin or not. No-one needs to "worry" about having to share a cabin. If they don't want to share a cabin they simply book a solo cabin!

The change in policy simply means that those who are happy to share, in order to save some money, have that option taken away from them.
 

Bletchleyite

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I fear that unless they can guarantee new trains and solo rooms they are sitting on an information time bomb here as giving this sort of info out now will raise customer expectations particularly of private accommodation and then they will obviously be disappointed on the night and the poor train crew will get it

They can certainly guarantee solo rooms - just put one person in each room on the existing stock.
 

TimboM

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Tonight's northbound locos:
1S25 - 92033 (Highlander - as far as Waverley, then 67003 to Inverness)
1S26 - 92044 (Lowlander)

1M16 (Southbound Highlander) will probably be 92018 from Waverley as it's been stabled there today.

The Skodas (90016/046) will most likely cover 1M11 and the Edinburgh/Carstairs portion between them.
 

TimboM

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Tonight's northbound locos:
1S25 - 92033 (Highlander - as far as Waverley, then 67003 to Inverness)
1S26 - 92044 (Lowlander)

1M16 (Southbound Highlander) will probably be 92018 from Waverley as it's been stabled there today.

The Skodas (90016/046) will most likely cover 1M11 and the Edinburgh/Carstairs portion between them.

CHANGE OF PLAN on 1S26
044 presumably developed some sort of issue as ran back to Wembley and became the ECS loco - 92043 (see avatar!) which was due to be the ECS loco now making a surprise appearance on the front of 1S26 now...
 

Bletchleyite

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Exactly! They are just removing an option.

By removing it, of course, they are increasing the number of cabins available for sole use - there are no more or less cabins, so they are just allocated differently.

(They don't do what would make sense and just allow people to book either option filling from each end until it's full)
 

306024

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Further to 1M16 terminating at Edinburgh in the early hours of Tuesday morning this week, I used the Caledonian Sleeper website to claim my refund. Couldn't have been simpler, and within two hours received a reply telling me to look out for the money in my account. 10/10 for customer service.
 

Bletchleyite

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Further to 1M16 terminating at Edinburgh in the early hours of Tuesday morning this week, I used the Caledonian Sleeper website to claim my refund. Couldn't have been simpler, and within two hours received a reply telling me to look out for the money in my account. 10/10 for customer service.

To be fair to them I've also cancelled a ticket (they are an odd setup in selling refundable less £10 Advances) and that was done quickly and efficiently online as well.
 

47271

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Further to accounts of the cancellation of Monday's southbound Highlander I've received feedback from a couple of regulars caught up in this, and whilst they broadly agree with 306024's positive view of CS's handling on the spot and quick refunds, they have a few less favourable comments to make about underlying management, bearing in mind that this by no means the first time they've been caught by a southbound getting canned at Waverley. They say it pans out pretty much identically every time.

- CS need to find a way of keeping the coaches in the station until the first King's Cross service is ready to board at 0500, with a direct transfer from one train to the other. There may well be operational or cost reasons why they have to kick everyone off at 0330 but it isn't good enough. It seemed a bit too handy that the portions were left separated in platforms 1 and 2 for two hours without power from an electric loco (so no heating or ventilation) and then nipped off back in the northbound Highlander's empty paths. Great that the stock was back in Inverness for 9am, but that's no good to the customer.

- It's true that passengers were able to wait in the Jury's Inn breakfast room, which is by no means the Ritz, but only after waiting in the ticket hall for half an hour until the station was opened for the day. Quite a few found themselves unable to leave by the Market Street exit because it was shut until 345am. Meanwhile the Virgin lounge, which remember CS is a partner in, was locked and in darkness.

- although the train had been cleared it was left to one member of staff to address those waiting in the ticket hall, and later in the hotel. No criticism is made of the crew, but CS need to plan to allow the staff they have available to interact with smaller groups of passengers.

- points 2 and 3 would be of no concern if point 1 could be resolved.
 

najaB

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CS need to find a way of keeping the coaches in the station until the first King's Cross service is ready to board at 0500, with a direct transfer from one train to the other. There may well be operational or cost reasons why they have to kick everyone off at 0330 but it isn't good enough.
I'm not sure that having a through platform occupied would go down that well with all the early morning ECS moves through the station. From an operational standpoint it would make more sense to send the stock off to Craigentinny or Millerhill to sleep for the night, but that would have safety implications.
 

TimboM

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Further to accounts of the cancellation of Monday's southbound Highlander I've received feedback from a couple of regulars caught up in this, and whilst they broadly agree with 306024's positive view of CS's handling on the spot and quick refunds, they have a few less favourable comments to make about underlying management, bearing in mind that this by no means the first time they've been caught by a southbound getting canned at Waverley. They say it pans out pretty much identically every time.

- CS need to find a way of keeping the coaches in the station until the first King's Cross service is ready to board at 0500, with a direct transfer from one train to the other. There may well be operational or cost reasons why they have to kick everyone off at 0330 but it isn't good enough. It seemed a bit too handy that the portions were left separated in platforms 1 and 2 for two hours without power from an electric loco (so no heating or ventilation) and then nipped off back in the northbound Highlander's empty paths. Great that the stock was back in Inverness for 9am, but that's no good to the customer.

...

- points 2 and 3 would be of no concern if point 1 could be resolved.

I suspect point 1 happens every time as it's the only viable option. There's some pretty resourceful folk working in Sleeper Control - they need to be - so if there was a way that worked within all the constraints they have to deal with I suspect it would've been found!

As @najaB says, though, the various portions take up valuable platform space in Waverley and cannot stay there - also no point attaching the portions together when they need to be separated to head back north.
Whilst bad for the impacted passengers getting rudely awoken and turfed off at c.3am; if the three portions are not sent back north in a situation like Mon night where the Northbound service was cancelled then there would be no stock/locos at the northern termini for the following night's service and there would be another trainload of passengers impacted.

It's also not a simple case of parking them up somewhere and send the empty stock later - there's only so many drivers/shunters/crew available, with hours they need to work within; only so many paths; only so many places 16 coaches and 3/4 locos can hang around without causing a lot of issues. There's also the fact the crew need their required time-off until the next service runs, and the depots/stabling points need the requisite time to service/prepare the stock and locos... I suspect there's a further long list of factors/obstacles that have to be considered on top of this.

Looking at all the other services on Monday night three trains (1S26, 1M11 and 1C11) were kept in stations overnight to be used as 'hotels' - and for a fourth (1S25) the loco was pretty much single-handedly detached, run round and reattached at Warrington in the dark on the WCML Fasts (no mean feat) to get the train back to Euston for passengers to finish off the night there. Suggests CS/GBRf do what they can to maintain passenger comfort/sleep - and the situation in Waverley is because there isn't really a feasible alternative. Appreciate this is small comfort for the sleep-deprived passengers on the southbound Highlander.
 

47271

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I'm not sure that having a through platform occupied would go down that well with all the early morning ECS moves through the station. From an operational standpoint it would make more sense to send the stock off to Craigentinny or Millerhill to sleep for the night, but that would have safety implications.
My correspondents don't doubt that the stock would be in the way, as any out of course activity on a Waverley through road would be, but argue that a contingency plan to avoid a 315am tip out should be in place for what is a relatively common occurence.

What made it worse for Highlander refugees was that CS somehow managed to keep the Lowlander with full power and passengers on board in P7 until much later as they shuffled backwards and forwards in and out of the station. Okay, a half set rather than a complete train, and cancelled before it began its journey, but a sleeper accommodated overnight in Waverley nevertheless.
 
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47271

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I suspect point 1 happens every time as it's the only viable option. There's some pretty resourceful folk working in Sleeper Control - they need to be - so if there was a way that worked within all the constraints they have to deal with I suspect it would've been found!

As @najaB says, though, the various portions take up valuable platform space in Waverley and cannot stay there - also no point attaching the portions together when they need to be separated to head back north.
Whilst bad for the impacted passengers getting rudely awoken and turfed off at c.3am; if the three portions are not sent back north in a situation like Mon night where the Northbound service was cancelled then there would be no stock/locos at the northern termini for the following night's service and there would be another trainload of passengers impacted.

It's also not a simple case of parking them up somewhere and send the empty stock later - there's only so many drivers/shunters/crew available, with hours they need to work within; only so many paths; only so many places 16 coaches and 3/4 locos can hang around without causing a lot of issues. There's also the fact the crew need their required time-off until the next service runs, and the depots/stabling points need the requisite time to service/prepare the stock and locos... I suspect there's a further long list of factors/obstacles that have to be considered on top of this.

Looking at all the other services on Monday night three trains (1S26, 1M11 and 1C11) were kept in stations overnight to be used as 'hotels' - and for a fourth (1S25) the loco was pretty much single-handedly detached, run round and reattached at Warrington in the dark on the WCML Fasts (no mean feat) to get the train back to Euston for passengers to finish off the night there. Suggests CS/GBRf do what they can to maintain passenger comfort/sleep - and the situation in Waverley is because there isn't really a feasible alternative. Appreciate this is small comfort for the sleep-deprived passengers on the southbound Highlander.
I don't disagree with anything you say, but as you say, small comfort for the sleep deprived customers on the southbound Highlander!

We know all of those things, but even regular users covering 80 sleeper journeys per year don't...
 

306024

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Further to accounts of the cancellation of Monday's southbound Highlander I've received feedback from a couple of regulars caught up in this, and whilst they broadly agree with 306024's positive view of CS's handling on the spot and quick refunds, they have a few less favourable comments to make about underlying management, bearing in mind that this by no means the first time they've been caught by a southbound getting canned at Waverley. They say it pans out pretty much identically every time.

- CS need to find a way of keeping the coaches in the station until the first King's Cross service is ready to board at 0500, with a direct transfer from one train to the other. There may well be operational or cost reasons why they have to kick everyone off at 0330 but it isn't good enough. It seemed a bit too handy that the portions were left separated in platforms 1 and 2 for two hours without power from an electric loco (so no heating or ventilation) and then nipped off back in the northbound Highlander's empty paths. Great that the stock was back in Inverness for 9am, but that's no good to the customer.

- It's true that passengers were able to wait in the Jury's Inn breakfast room, which is by no means the Ritz, but only after waiting in the ticket hall for half an hour until the station was opened for the day. Quite a few found themselves unable to leave by the Market Street exit because it was shut until 345am. Meanwhile the Virgin lounge, which remember CS is a partner in, was locked and in darkness.

- although the train had been cleared it was left to one member of staff to address those waiting in the ticket hall, and later in the hotel. No criticism is made of the crew, but CS need to plan to allow the staff they have available to interact with smaller groups of passengers.

- points 2 and 3 would be of no concern if point 1 could be resolved.

Interesting to get another perspective. Must admit I didnt rush to get off the train, so by the time I did staff were in place to direct us first to the waiting room, then all together to the hotel. There were some other staff around, but the two staff I saw take the initiative, one at the station and another at the hotel, were very competent. Also it is better, where possible, to have one source of information, to avoid getting mixed messages from different staff.

Looking at the operational logistics it would be very difficult to keep everyone on the train until 05.00. Annoying as it is to be turfed out of bed, the northbound sleeper departs Edinburgh at 04.15 to Inverness, 04.43 to Aberdeen and 04.50 to Fort William. Retuning the trains back to where they started from in these paths is the least worst option under the circumstances, but I see why this is difficult to understand as a customer, without going into all the logistical detail.

Although the hotel is a bit of an uphill walk, tea and coffee were immediately available, and there were plenty of seats. I wonder if the Virgin lounge could have coped with the numbers, assuming someone could be found to put the kettle (and the heating) on.

The sleeper staff at the hotel were urging people to spread their journeys, rather than all get the 05.40 to Kings Cross, which worked to a small degree. I take the point about addressing smaller groups, I offered my services to help replan people's journeys to avoid the staff getting swamped (a task I am qualified for!), but they weren't needed as everyone seems to have a smart phone these days and worked it out for themselves.
 
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Drumtochty

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The type 47 has a 2,500 HP engine I would have thought that was enough grunt to take the Inverness sleeper up those hills to Inverness and also do the ETH.

I was surprised they need a type 66 as well or are the worried about the reliability of the type 47
 

TimboM

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The type 47 has a 2,500 HP engine I would have thought that was enough grunt to take the Inverness sleeper up those hills to Inverness and also do the ETH.

I was surprised they need a type 66 as well or are the worried about the reliability of the type 47

Prior to it being called into action on 1S25/1M16 at the start of this week it had been at Mossend awaiting for repair for best part of 3 weeks and had only been back in traffic a few days. It'd done a couple of stock moves at the end of last week, but not a lot else to test it out. Whether or not it might have been able to cope solo (and that's a "might") I would expect the fact it was only recently back from repair was a key factor in having the 66 on the front to provide the power.
 

BRX

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A 47 was for some time the norm on the Inverness sleeper...when it was a somewhat lengthier consist than what now runs!
 

JonathanH

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Prior to it being called into action on 1S25/1M16 at the start of this week it had been at Mossend awaiting for repair for best part of 3 weeks and had only been back in traffic a few days. It'd done a couple of stock moves at the end of last week, but not a lot else to test it out. Whether or not it might have been able to cope solo (and that's a "might") I would expect the fact it was only recently back from repair was a key factor in having the 66 on the front to provide the power.

What also seems a bit strange is that 66742 appears to have remained at Craigentinny all week and not gone back to general GBRf workings. 47749 has been on the other side of the central belt doing empty stock workings.
 

TimboM

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What also seems a bit strange is that 66742 appears to have remained at Craigentinny all week and not gone back to general GBRf workings. 47749 has been on the other side of the central belt doing empty stock workings.

I think 66742 was the latest loco to succumb to the dreaded wheelflats.
92014 also suffered them taking the Carstairs portion ECS (5C11) out to Waverley on Tuesday night and was caped at Carstairs (passengers from Edinburgh bussed there instead of 1C11). 92014 has been sat in Mossend since - no doubt in a very long queue for the wheel lathe at Craigentinny. 92014's disablement was the reason for 87002 heading up on Wednesday night.
 
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