Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[jagardner1984]

I'm curious, as a layperson, how this could be. Trains run every day at 125 mph with no seat belts, people standing, loose luggage, unrestrained catering trolleys etc. etc. Presumably this is considered acceptably safe.
Yet a few dozen basic beds were considered unsafe?

It seems even more crazy when it’s deemed perfectly safe on airliners travelling at 6 times the speed, which frequently encounter significant turbulence and considerably less predictable conditions. How many airliners worldwide have crashed since Grayrigg ?

To enter another 40 years of rolling stock without any flat seat option feels an extremely odd decision.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems even more crazy when it’s deemed perfectly safe on airliners travelling at 6 times the speed, which frequently encounter significant turbulence and considerably less predictable conditions. How many airliners worldwide have crashed since Grayrigg ?

To enter another 40 years of rolling stock without any flat bed option feels an extremely odd decision.

The difference I'd imagine is that planes don't crash at 35,000ft when the beds are reclined, or if they do all bets are off. Crashes happen on take off and landing, when the beds are upright.

A train could theoretically crash at any time.

 

[Norther Monkey]

The difference I'd imagine is that planes don't crash at 35,000ft when the beds are reclined, or if they do all bets are off. Crashes happen on take off and landing, when the beds are upright.

A train could theoretically crash at any time.

In which case let's ban standing, unrestrained heavy luggage, catering trolleys. Unless using the lavatory you are to be sat down, seat belt worn.

Trains are highly unlikely to crash, hence why the actions above are allowed. That safety blocked the 'pods' sounds either false or a hugely over cautious risk assessment.

 

[gsnedders]

The difference I'd imagine is that planes don't crash at 35,000ft when the beds are reclined, or if they do all bets are off. Crashes happen on take off and landing, when the beds are upright.

A train could theoretically crash at any time.

There are a number of injuries every month caused by turbulence, and having a seatbelt on while reclined isn't that comfortable! That said, excepting turbulence almost anything going wrong at 35000ft is either totally catastrophic and unsurvivable or you have plenty of time to prepare the cabin.

 

[jagardner1984]

Yes, and not to be flippant about it, of course, but at 0.43 deaths per billion passenger miles (Rail Travel, 2000-2009), it seems as a Caledonian Sleeper customer, I can feel relatively safe, vertical or horizontal .... !

 

[Norther Monkey]

Yes, and not to be flippant about it, of course, but at 0.43 deaths per billion passenger miles (Rail Travel, 2000-2009), it seems as a Caledonian Sleeper customer, I can feel relatively safe, vertical or horizontal .... !

Well, partly due to this decision, the level of risk I'll face on the sleeper in the future is minimal. I'll be flying instead!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, partly due to this decision, the level of risk I'll face on the sleeper in the future is minimal. I'll be flying instead!

Certainly minus the pods and at the present prices I'm much less likely to use it. The pods were pretty much directly aimed at me in terms of travelling mostly alone and a reasonable price, but unable to sleep in a seat.

 

[trebor79]

Rather than pods couldn't they have just had rows of berths attached to partition walls? A bit like a compartment but with no door, sink etc.
Does seem bizarre that the possible consequences of a vanishingly small chance of a crash put paid to them.

 

[jagardner1984]

And the time I went on the Megabus Sleeper Coach, I don't remember any form of restraint ....

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the time I went on the Megabus Sleeper Coach, I don't remember any form of restraint ....

There were belts to be worn while travelling. And you had to travel feet to front.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rather than pods couldn't they have just had rows of berths attached to partition walls? A bit like a compartment but with no door, sink etc.
Does seem bizarre that the possible consequences of a vanishingly small chance of a crash put paid to them.

Longitudinal couchettes (2 high, converting to a facing seat with a table) would have been perfect.

 

[jagardner1984]

I was meaning the converted bendy bus with beds. Whilst they have sadly folded, and conditions were cramped in the extreme (berths were 3 high), the times I used it it was packed.

The lack of a shower option at the other end made it far less desirable than the Caledonian Sleeper, but I suspect Stagecoach will be watching Caledonian Sleeper's pricing strategy with interest ....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I used its later incarnation and it was fine if a bit cramped. You could get a shower by going to the station!

 

[alistairlees]

23:07 on a Sunday, 23:52 on weeknights

It isn't so clear how sharing from different stations works now that people choose berths online. It doesn't make sense to turn away custom from one station just because another person has booked a berth at another.

The reservation system does not permit two berth reservations in the same compartment with different origins. I think it might with different destinations. The reason for the former is simple - how pleased would you be if you had gone to bed and someone was due to join three or so hours later? This restriction applies whether you book online or not. Customers "in the know" used to use it to game the system by reserving a berth in twin from somewhere like Corrour, knowing that no-one else would do so, and then boarding at Fort William because their 'plans had changed' (same price, so never denied). Result: a more-or-less guaranteed room to yourself, for the price of a shared room.

Last chance to try this is two weeks tonight.

 

[route101]

The reservation system does not permit two berth reservations in the same compartment with different origins. I think it might with different destinations. The reason for the former is simple - how pleased would you be if you had gone to bed and someone was due to join three or so hours later? This restriction applies whether you book online or not. Customers "in the know" used to use it to game the system by reserving a berth in twin from somewhere like Corrour, knowing that no-one else would do so, and then boarding at Fort William because their 'plans had changed' (same price, so never denied). Result: a more-or-less guaranteed room to yourself, for the price of a shared room.

Last chance to try this is two weeks tonight.

Interesting never knew that was the case .

Cant be many people getting on at Dalmuir!

 

[RLBH]

Longitudinal couchettes (2 high, converting to a facing seat with a table) would have been perfect.

I'm not sure why you'd go for longitudinal rather than transverse couchettes - same capacity either way, and transverse makes for more sensible use of the available space in 'day coach' mode IMHO. Not that you're likely to run them as day coaches very often, but it might be a useful capability to have. Gimmicky 'pods' just seem to me to introduce difficulties without solving any problems.

 

[Kite159]

Interesting never knew that was the case .

Cant be many people getting on at Dalmuir!

Unless you get folk from Glasgow wanting to travel to Crewe

[A bit like folk from Edinburgh wanting to travel to Crewe, boarding at Inverkeithing]

 

[JohnMcL7]

I noticed it was the Arriva Blue 67003 on the sleeper last night which I've not seen before, how do they choose which 67's are allocated to the sleeper?

 

[tsr]

Interesting never knew that was the case .

Cant be many people getting on at Dalmuir!

Tulloch is probably better for obscurity.

It's barely even a hamlet, although it does have a few places around the station.

 

[paul1609]

Interesting never knew that was the case .

Cant be many people getting on at Dalmuir!

I've got off there a couple of times to travel to dry docks south of the Clyde its convenient for the Erskine Bridge. I've never got on there or seen anybody else do so. i think the guard often changes there.
In the year up to June I probably travelled to/ from Garelochead about a dozen times. I cant recall seeing anybody else getting off or on from the berths on any of the intermediate stations south of there in all that time. One disadvantage of getting on there is that the lounge car will be cashing up there to be detached at Edinburgh in my experience.
On my northbound trips I've often met people in the lounge car travelling to the estate at Courrour so I imagine that it probably has more customers than many of the stations south of Arrocher and Tarbet.

 

[gcmozart]

How late does the lounge car stay open? Is it until the last passenger goes to their cabin or is there a cut off when they kick everybody out?

 

[paul1609]

How late does the lounge car stay open? Is it until the last passenger goes to their cabin or is there a cut off when they kick everybody out?

I think on the Southbound West highlander it probably depends on the number of customers left.
The normal custom is that you get asked politely if you want anything else or to settle up if youre running a tab. Ive never been asked to leave but obviously you have to be in your berth before the train arrives in Edinburgh.

 

[TimboM]

I noticed it was the Arriva Blue 67003 on the sleeper last night which I've not seen before, how do they choose which 67's are allocated to the sleeper?

Whichever one DB have available to fulfil the hire arrangement!

67004 was on hire but failed last week, so DB rustled up 003 to replace it. I seem to recall 67003 worked the Inverness earlier in the year briefly, but might be wrong.

 

[Journeyman]

The difference I'd imagine is that planes don't crash at 35,000ft when the beds are reclined, or if they do all bets are off. Crashes happen on take off and landing, when the beds are upright.

A train could theoretically crash at any time.

That's exactly it. It was transmission of forces through neck and spine in a collision that was the unresolvable problem.

 

[trebor79]

So why isn't that an issue with the berths?

Why didn't they just abandon the pod idea and have some couchette cars? From a crash pov that would be identical to the bedrooms and hence should have been doable.

 

[marks87]

So why isn't that an issue with the berths?

Presumably because the beds in the berths lie perpendicular to the direction of travel.

 

[Journeyman]

So why isn't that an issue with the berths?

Because they're transverse, not longitudinal. In a crash, the side of your body will take the impact, which is a lot less serious than a broken neck.

Why didn't they just abandon the pod idea and have some couchette cars? From a crash pov that would be identical to the bedrooms and hence should have been doable.

Because market research shows that people are extremely reluctant to share with strangers these days, hence the idea of a small private capsule.

 

[Norther Monkey]

That's exactly it. It was transmission of forces through neck and spine in a collision that was the unresolvable problem.

It doesn't explain the different approach taken to risk between this scenario and a standing room only express with loose luggage, catering trolleys etc. etc.

 

[trebor79]

Because market research shows that people are extremely reluctant to share with strangers these days, hence the idea of a small private capsule.

Hence my suggestion that it wasn't arranged in compartments.
You could have pods stacked vertically against bulkheads in an otherwise open saloon, for example. I'm thinking of a Japanese style "rabbit hutch" hotel - I'm sure there was an Michael Palin programme years ago when he tried one out.
So rather than sharing a couchette compartment, you're in a totally private pod, just arranged transverse rather than longitudinally. There might be another one above or below you but that's no big deal. There could even be a little window at one end.

 

[gingerheid]

I'd thought they might have the new carriages like the Yo hotel cabins, which have a sort of S shaped wall such that the top bunk is in one cabin, and the bottom bunk is in the cabin next door accessed from the other side.