Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[BRX]

even the Citylink Bus

nooooo!
Apart from the treachery of deviating to road transport - that misses out arguably the most remarkable bit of the journey which is the lonely crossing of Rannoch Moor far from where any road goes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

nooooo!
Apart from the treachery of deviating to road transport - that misses out arguably the most remarkable bit of the journey which is the lonely crossing of Rannoch Moor far from where any road goes.

I've done the bus and it is easily as spectacular. Possibly the most notable thing in terms of passengers were a pair of wild campers walking off the moor onto the road and flagging it down having evidently spent the night there. It's probably up there with the Conwy Valley as being worth doing train one way, bus the other.

Book the bus in advance, though, it does get full and does not take standees.

 

[Iskra]

I think that Northbound that the lowlander and then the West highland line local train or even the Citylink Bus (because of the scenery across Rannoch moor and Glencoe) can be a good move but Southbound I'd go for the West Highlander every time because of the unique atmosphere in the Fort William Lounge Car, this can be particularly so in Winter. That said after my recent employment in Garelochead I've come to appreciate Glasgow as a city and for a pint a lot more, I just find the lowlander sleeper a bit soulless to be honest.
Definitely worth roughing it in the old stock on the West highlander imho.

I'm doing a 156 Northbound from Glasgow as I want to see it in daylight.

I've done the lounge car from Inverness several times, so it's not like I'm missing out. Equally as part of my trip I want to cover both the Oban and Mallaig branches, to do so and catch the Fort William sleeper portion would mean a very long wait in the dark at Crianlarich in January. The lowlander is also cheaper, gives me a chance to try the new stock and I haven't done it before.

 

[paul1609]

I've done the bus and it is easily as spectacular. Possibly the most notable thing in terms of passengers were a pair of wild campers walking off the moor onto the road and flagging it down having evidently spent the night there. It's probably up there with the Conwy Valley as being worth doing train one way, bus the other.

Book the bus in advance, though, it does get full and does not take standees.

I would say that the Glasgow to Skye Bus is one of the great UK public transport journeys and the scenery in total probably exceeds that of the West Highland line. I'm thinking Rannoch Moor, Glencoe, Balluchulish and then North of Fort William Glen Garry, Glen Shiel and the Broadford to Portree Section. I think a lot of train enthusiasts sell themselves short by "doing Skye" by getting the train to kyle of Lochalsh and then heading straight to Armadale to get the ferry back to Mallaig.

 

[31160]

Travelling from Crianlarich in January, just booked the Lowland Sleeper (with a change) instead of the Highland as it's showing the new coaching stock rather than the Mk2/3's on the Fort William portion. Looking forward to trying these out!

If this is right and you can't couple a 90 to a MK5, do we assume that it'll just be 92's and 73's on sleepers from early in the year due to diagramming complications IF the highlands are still MK3s I can't see them keeping the two separate types alongside each other or am I adding 2 and 2 and getting 5?

 

[matt]

I think a 90 can couple but it's electric train supply can't supply the coaches only a 92 or 73 can.

 

[Highlandspring]

No, only the 92s and 73s have been modified with Dellner automatic couplings required for the mk5s.

 

[swaldman]

Out of curiosity, what's the reason for the change of coupler? There must be some fairly compelling advantages to make up for losing so much flexibility by becoming incompatible with the rest of the country.

(I'm not criticising the choice, just wanting to understand it)

 

[Wigan Wanderer]

I've decided to make a concerted attempt to knock off my required sleeper locos for haulage (92010/018/043/044 and 73969). Living near Crewe my only real option is 1S25 the northbound highlander, so it's going to be a matter of booking on that and taking pot luck. Was thinking of booking tomorrow night, Sunday, assuming there is still availability. I wonder if anyone knows if any of my requirements are possibles for Sunday, if not I'll book Monday instead.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Out of curiosity, what's the reason for the change of coupler? There must be some fairly compelling advantages to make up for losing so much flexibility by becoming incompatible with the rest of the country.

(I'm not criticising the choice, just wanting to understand it)

There's some discussion on the coupler choice here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caledonian-sleeper-mk5-discussion.125156/page-13

I did wonder why these ones are the Dellner coupler while the TPE mk 5 coaches aren't so the comment about the sleeper coaches having the different coupling makes sense in that the sleeper coaches need to be separated and rejoined each day while the TPE coaches don't. I'm interested to hear any more comments on it though.

In particular the different coupling seems to make it very difficult for a rescue locomotive because according to that thread, while it can pull the dead locomotive it can't supply ETS to the carriages. Also I think I saw in that thread as well that the 57/3's or other locomotives that are equipped with dellner couplers can't pull the sleepers because the coupling is at a different height than the EMU's? I might be talking rubbish though as I think there was an ROG 47 that was pulling the sleepers.

With the current sleeper, if the locomotive fails can the rescue locomotive power the carriages if it's pulling the dead locomotive as in is there an ETS passthrough? I've seen a 66 hauling a 67 and the sleeper carriages for which I guess there would be no ETS if the 67 was dead but I'm wondering how often in a failure, the sleeper is hauled with no power to the carriages?

 

[swaldman]

There's some discussion on the coupler choice here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caledonian-sleeper-mk5-discussion.125156/page-13

Hmm, thanks. The only real advantage that I take away from that is that less force is required to couple, so presumably less jolting for sleeping folk.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Hmm, thanks. The only real advantage that I take away from that is that less force is required to couple, so presumably less jolting for sleeping folk.

It looks like there is less to disconnect/connect as well:

The need to manually connect/disconnect brake pipes and electrical supply, and having to have someone to do that, and having that person reaching between coaches getting shunted, and the time saved by avoiding that. Remember that the sleeper is nowadays the only UK service operated by LHCS that splits/joins (unless I'm mistaken).

 

[swaldman]

It looks like there is less to disconnect/connect as well:

Yes, but as noted on that thread, there's still a need for somebody to get on the track and connect electrics. So I'm not sure that there's actually any saving there. I guess there might be a safety gain from nobody having to be down there while vehicles are moving / under power? (I don't know enough about coupling procedure to know)

 

[route101]

No lounge at Qst, never has been. Lowlander does have a lounge car, new sets will be 1st class only or whatever they are calling it.

With hopefully a new first class offering on the HSTs , there may be a lounge in the redeveloped station .

 

[route101]

I think that Northbound that the lowlander and then the West highland line local train or even the Citylink Bus (because of the scenery across Rannoch moor and Glencoe) can be a good move but Southbound I'd go for the West Highlander every time because of the unique atmosphere in the Fort William Lounge Car, this can be particularly so in Winter. That said after my recent employment in Garelochead I've come to appreciate Glasgow as a city and for a pint a lot more, I just find the lowlander sleeper a bit soulless to be honest.
Definitely worth roughing it in the old stock on the West highlander imho.

The thing with the lowlander sleeper is you dont have much time in the evening to enjoy it .

 

[TimboM]

I've decided to make a concerted attempt to knock off my required sleeper locos for haulage (92010/018/043/044 and 73969). Living near Crewe my only real option is 1S25 the northbound highlander, so it's going to be a matter of booking on that and taking pot luck. Was thinking of booking tomorrow night, Sunday, assuming there is still availability. I wonder if anyone knows if any of my requirements are possibles for Sunday, if not I'll book Monday instead.

My advice would be to save your money for another time...!

010 - in Brush receiving Dellner mods and will be for several more weeks
018 - under repair/exam, won't be available for a while yet
043 - taken off the beds last night (90043 replaced it); believe it has tunnel work lined up next week
044 - moved on to the STVAs (Garston-Dagenham cars) this week and will be on them for a few weeks I suspect

969 was on the Aberdeen on Fri pm, so the only one you may be in with a shout of - and 92 043 assuming it re-joins the party sometime later next week post-tunnel duties.

92 028 and 033 are the current Highlander locos and will probably stick for the next week or two, if not 023 might come into the reckoning (or Skodas). 028 will likely work 1S25 tomorrow (Sun night) and 033 on Monday if they stick in "rotation".

92 043 tends to work the Lowlander when it's on the beds. I think your only real hope of getting it Sun night is if 028 sat down and 043 was pressed into action.

 

[TimboM]

If this is right and you can't couple a 90 to a MK5, do we assume that it'll just be 92's and 73's on sleepers from early in the year due to diagramming complications IF the highlands are still MK3s I can't see them keeping the two separate types alongside each other or am I adding 2 and 2 and getting 5?

The 92s with CAF mods will need their ETS switched over to 1,500V to work the Mk5s - they get different jumper cables too. Only 92 038 is currently set up for 1,500V - the others still have 900V "classic" ETS to work the Mk3s/Mk2s.

So when the Lowlander switches to the Mk5s, there'll need to be effectively two pools of locos - one set of 92s with CAF mods and ETS at 1,500V; and then a pool of other locos with classic ETS to work the Highlander whilst it's still Mk2s/Mk3s - this will most likely be the hired-in 90s, plus possibly 032 and 044 (which aren't getting the CAF mods).

73/9s can switch between the two types much more easily as the ETS doesn't need to change in the same way - indeed it's already the case now that a 73/9 might be working a portion of Mk3s/Mk2s one day, then moving Mk5 stock about/doing a test run the next.

 

[BRX]

I wonder if in the future we'll occasionally see 73/9s doing the run to and from London - once there's no other option besides the 92s.

 

[Mag_seven]

I wonder if in the future we'll occasionally see 73/9s doing the run to and from London - once there's no other option besides the 92s.

Would love to see one of them tackle Shap on a wet autumn evening with a full load 16 behind it!

 

[GW43125]

Would love to see four of them tackle Shap on a wet autumn evening with a full load 16 behind them!

Fixed that for you

 

[Wigan Wanderer]

My advice would be to save your money for another time...!

010 - in Brush receiving Dellner mods and will be for several more weeks
018 - under repair/exam, won't be available for a while yet
043 - taken off the beds last night (90043 replaced it); believe it has tunnel work lined up next week
044 - moved on to the STVAs (Garston-Dagenham cars) this week and will be on them for a few weeks I suspect

969 was on the Aberdeen on Fri pm, so the only one you may be in with a shout of - and 92 043 assuming it re-joins the party sometime later next week post-tunnel duties.

92 028 and 033 are the current Highlander locos and will probably stick for the next week or two, if not 023 might come into the reckoning (or Skodas). 028 will likely work 1S25 tomorrow (Sun night) and 033 on Monday if they stick in "rotation".

92 043 tends to work the Lowlander when it's on the beds. I think your only real hope of getting it Sun night is if 028 sat down and 043 was pressed into action.

Many thanks for taking the time to provide that detailed info, very much appreciated! Taking your advice I'll postpone my trip until late this week or early next week and hope 92043 comes back on. Obviously any news on that would be great. If it's on the lowlander I could travel to London and join it there. Cheers.

 

[TimboM]

I wonder if in the future we'll occasionally see 73/9s doing the run to and from London - once there's no other option besides the 92s.

Only 92s can cope with the ETS demands of a Load 16. There's also only 6x 73/9s so not enough really to venture south. More likely they might crop up on the Carstairs portion or Glasgow ECS I think - can cope with a Load 8 just about.

 

[Highlandspring]

Given that they can’t do a round trip on 1Y11 and 1B01 without taking fuel at Fort William and Craigentinny I’d suggest that Edinburgh to London might be pushing it.

 

[Scotrail84]

I wonder if in the future we'll occasionally see 73/9s doing the run to and from London - once there's no other option besides the 92s.

100% no chance!

 

[BRX]

Sounds like 'no' then.

 

[TimboM]

...Taking your advice I'll postpone my trip until late this week or early next week and hope 92043 comes back on. Obviously any news on that would be great. If it's on the lowlander I could travel to London and join it there. Cheers.

92 043 on 1S26 tonight
92 028 on 1S25

 

[Wigan Wanderer]

92 043 on 1S26 tonight
92 028 on 1S25

Ah thanks, I'm too late for 92043 tonight, but does that mean it's likely for 1S26 on Tuesday?

 

[TimboM]

Ah thanks, I'm too late for 92043 tonight, but does that mean it's likely for 1S26 on Tuesday?

It's a possibility, but then 90046 (due B Exam) is due to get swapped with a "new" 90 tomorrow, which could mean that 90 comes in Tue night and 043 heads to the tunnel or whatever.

 

[JModulo]

92 043 on 1S26 tonight
92 028 on 1S25

90043 1M11 (86401 5M11)
92033 1M16

 

[Wigan Wanderer]

It's a possibility, but then 90046 (due B Exam) is due to get swapped with a "new" 90 tomorrow, which could mean that 90 comes in Tue night and 043 heads to the tunnel or whatever.

I won't book it yet then. The booking deadline is quoted on the website as 3hrs before the train leaves origin, availability permitting, so I may have to roll the dice at some point if 92043 works south tonight. 1S25 would be ideal for me but sounds unlikely, in which case my move would be 20.42 Crewe - Euston for 1S26.