Caledonian Sleeper Mk5 Discussion

[Scotrail84]

Im just a casual reader/observer of this thread.Obviously the MK5s have to be tested on the move and to accumlimate miles.
But what about testing with full load of passengers just to make sure everything is working ?Will it be done or will they wait until it enters service?

Is this done with any other new rolling stock before it enters service?

 

[SC43090]

Caledonian Sleeper Mk5s out on test early morning of the 17.1.2019
carriages numbers 15006, 15104, 15203, 15316,15324,15325,125329,15326,

Please have a look at the video

Wonderful video Kyle......

But will we poor peasants be able to afford to buy a ticket to travel on these new trains when they enter traffic.......

SC 43090

 

[Townsend Hook]

Im just a casual reader/observer of this thread.Obviously the MK5s have to be tested on the move and to accumlimate miles.
But what about testing with full load of passengers just to make sure everything is working ?Will it be done or will they wait until it enters service?

Everything working in terms of what, exactly? Onboard systems will have been checked before the trains left the factory, and again by CS before accepting the trains. The mechanical side of things don’t require anyone to be on board to be tested.

 

[theironroad]

Caledonian Sleeper Mk5s out on test early morning of the 17.1.2019
carriages numbers 15006, 15104, 15203, 15316,15324,15325,125329,15326,

Please have a look at the video

Nice video, I just hope that brake noise calms down a bit.

I'm already gutted that multiple units weren't ordered and we have t continue to endure the banging and clanging when the lowlander splits/attaches at Carstairs, don't need major noisy brakes as well........

 

[GrimShady]

Nice video, I just hope that brake noise calms down a bit.

I'm already gutted that multiple units weren't ordered and we have t continue to endure the banging and clanging when the lowlander splits/attaches at Carstairs, don't need major noisy brakes as well........

Multiple units??

It's bad enough listening to underfloor engines groaning away all day, youd like to introduce that plus vibrations to a sleeper service??

I'd like to add that when the 800s come to the ECML, will be the final straw for me traveling on day trains to London. It will be CS or nothing, both the Pendolino are Satsumas are comfortable crud!

 

[BRX]

Everything working in terms of what, exactly? Onboard systems will have been checked before the trains left the factory, and again by CS before accepting the trains. The mechanical side of things don’t require anyone to be on board to be tested.

Any number of things can go wrong or be unforeseen when you introduce human users into a system. It's why, for example, new restaurants usually have a 'soft opening' where they do a trial run of an evening's service with non-paying guests. The sleeper carriages must contain many more complicated systems than a regular train. Would seem to me that it would be sensible to do a trial run under full occupancy.

 

[47271]

Any number of things can go wrong or be unforeseen when you introduce human users into a system. It's why, for example, new restaurants usually have a 'soft opening' where they do a trial run of an evening's service with non-paying guests. The sleeper carriages must contain many more complicated systems than a regular train. Would seem to me that it would be sensible to do a trial run under full occupancy.

Not at all, everything goes right on the railway without the need to consult the user... LOL

 

[theironroad]

Multiple units??

It's bad enough listening to underfloor engines groaning away all day, youd like to introduce that plus vibrations to a sleeper service??

I'd like to add that when the 800s come to the ECML, will be the final straw for me traveling on day trains to London. It will be CS or nothing, both the Pendolino are Satsumas are comfortable crud!

I take your point, but at at least on lowlanders there could be a emu with a nice smooth split/attach.

DMUs with an engine under every carriage might be more problematic.

Being woken at Carstairs every time (and ruining sleep pattern) on a northbound lowlander with an already short journey time for sleep is enough to drive me to fly or try and figure in a day train (pref not a tilting one.......)

 

[Bertie the bus]

EMUs can be significantly noisier than DMUs and the noise produced is much higher pitched which would be even worse when trying to sleep.

Without having to read nearly 800 posts, do we know whether the doors on these trains make the squeal when released and bleeps when closing or do the presence of attendants make that unnecessary?

 

[GrimShady]

I take your point, but at at least on lowlanders there could be a emu with a nice smooth split/attach.

DMUs with an engine under every carriage might be more problematic.

Being woken at Carstairs every time (and ruining sleep pattern) on a northbound lowlander with an already short journey time for sleep is enough to drive me to fly or try and figure in a day train (pref not a tilting one.......)

EMUs designed like 4TCs may have worked. It would put a restriction on expanding the train, also adding the coach for Ft Bill would have been an issue.

Honestly I don't understand why the shunting process is so rough. Shunting never used to be that bad in the old days.

 

[Highlandspring]

Without having to read nearly 800 posts, do we know whether the doors on these trains make the squeal when released and bleeps when closing or do the presence of attendants make that unnecessary?

My understanding is that the coaches do have hustle alarms, yes.

Honestly I don't understand why the shunting process is so rough. Shunting never used to be that bad in the old days.

I have never been woken by shunting on the sleepers.

 

[GrimShady]

My understanding is that the coaches do have hustle alarms, yes.

I have never been woken by shunting on the sleeper.

The saving grace is that the doors shouldn't be in use much on intermediate stations.

I've been woken by the shunting many, many times. It's almost as if the try to make it as hard a possible.

 

[47271]

EMUs can be significantly noisier than DMUs and the noise produced is much higher pitched which would be even worse when trying to sleep.

Without having to read nearly 800 posts, do we know whether the doors on these trains make the squeal when released and bleeps when closing or do the presence of attendants make that unnecessary?

I don't know the factual answer, but there aren't enough hosts to cover every door and if there isn't any audible warning of a door closing then there's a risk of getting clouted. Also bear in mind that it isn't every door that'll open at every station. So my guess is that there will be sounds.

I can't see that the noise of local hustle alarm is any worse than the racket produced by a mk3 door being slammed a few feet from your compartment. I know what that's like at Crewe at 530am!

 

[Meerkat]

Have you been on the sleepers that go from Sweden to Germany on the train ferry? Don’t reckon anyone would sleep through all that rigmarole!

 

[Mag_seven]

I don't understand why people are expecting the best sleep of their lives on a sleeper train. You are going to be moved about, there will be noise and shunting will happen.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I can't see that the noise of local hustle alarm is any worse than the racket produced by a mk3 door being slammed a few feet from your compartment. I know what that's like at Crewe at 530am!

It would be the door release sound which would be worse if it has that as well. On quite a bit of stock the door release squeal is much louder than the hustle alarm and it would sound at every pick up and set down station regardless of whether the door was opened or not.

 

[Meerkat]

I think the query is why the shunting needs to be so heavy - there isn’t any hurry is there?

 

[47271]

Shunting never used to be that bad in the old days.

I don't know how far back you're going but the worst sleeper shunt I've ever experienced (and more than once) was when they used to attach the two mk3s at Carlisle, that must've been in the early 1990s.

I swear that it felt like there was a psychopath at the controls of the 08 shunter, specially modified to reach 80mph, as we slammed into the back of the Glasgow to Euston train.

Edinburgh and Carstairs are super gentle now by comparison.

 

[47271]

I think the query is why the shunting needs to be so heavy - there isn’t any hurry is there?

I don't know if it is that heavy in reality. There's a lot of looseness in the old stock - presumbly couplings - which causes a snookerball effect with small sharp movements in the train. I know someone who won't stand up on arrival at Euston until he hears the doors unlock. There's nearly always one last sickening lurch rippling down the train at the end he says.

 

[Highlandspring]

It would be the door release sound which would be worse if it has that as well. On quite a bit of stock the door release squeal is much louder than the hustle alarm and it would sound at every pick up and set down station regardless of whether the door was opened or not.

Sorry I’ve not made myself clear, I was using the term hustle alarm to cover both door opening and closing tones.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Thanks. I was thinking of trying to see one of the WCML tests this week anyway. It's possible they might release the doors so I might get an opportunity to see how loud they are - from the outside of course.

 

[Highlandspring]

I’ve just had a look at the relevant British Standard BS14752:2015 which covers “Bodyside entrance systems for rolling stock” and it seems that an audible tone upon door release and closing is an absolute requirement -

 

[BRX]

I think the query is why the shunting needs to be so heavy - there isn’t any hurry is there?

I think they are buckeye couplings, is that right? If so do you need a minimum amount of speed to make them work?

 

[BRX]

By the way this is an image from an order for new night trains by OBB. It's really a shame we couldn't have had something like this for the CS.

 

[_toommm_]

I’ve just had a look at the relevant British Standard BS14752:2015 which covers “Bodyside entrance systems for rolling stock” and it seems that an audible tone upon door release and closing is an absolute requirement -

View attachment 58185
View attachment 58186

And it's covered by the PRM-TSI legislation (Persons of Reduced Mobility - Technical Specifications for Interoperability). No use ordering stock that isn't PRM compliant!

EDIT: Just seen the photos and believe that is the PRM legislation I mentioned... oops

 

[Highlandspring]

The PRM-TSI is incorporated into the British Standard, so that if you comply with the BS you are compliant with the TSI. I’ve had a look at the derogations register* and there are none listed for CS mk5 rolling stock.


*https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ability-derogations-and-decisions.csv/preview

 

[Bertie the bus]

And it's covered by the PRM-TSI legislation (Persons of Reduced Mobility - Technical Specifications for Interoperability). No use ordering stock that isn't PRM compliant!

It all depends on how intrusive the noise is as to whether it is worth worrying about but if it is the equivalent of having an alarm clock going off up to 20 times per journey then common sense would dictate the alarms should not be fitted to sleeper stock. Especially when these services are book ahead only, any requirement for assistance could be made known at the time of booking and there are a reasonable number of staff aboard to provide that assistance to what in reality will be a tiny percentage of passengers.

 

[GrimShady]

It all depends on how intrusive the noise is as to whether it is worth worrying about but if it is the equivalent of having an alarm clock going off up to 20 times per journey then common sense would dictate the alarms should not be fitted to sleeper stock. Especially when these services are book ahead only, any requirement for assistance could be made known at the time of booking and there are a reasonable number of staff aboard to provide that assistance to what in reality will be a tiny percentage of passengers.

I suppose it might not be so bad in the berth coaches but the seated sleeper i can imagine wouldn't be any fun. Are there vestibule doors fitted to the seated coaches?

 

[47271]

It all depends on how intrusive the noise is as to whether it is worth worrying about but if it is the equivalent of having an alarm clock going off up to 20 times per journey then common sense would dictate the alarms should not be fitted to sleeper stock. Especially when these services are book ahead only, any requirement for assistance could be made known at the time of booking and there are a reasonable number of staff aboard to provide that assistance to what in reality will be a tiny percentage of passengers.

How about they test it out with some real people on board before the trains go into service? Then they'd know...

 

[GrimShady]

How about they test it out with some real people on board before the trains go into service? Then they'd know...

This is why we should go back to prototypes.