Caledonian Sleeper Mk5 Discussion

[theironroad]

It doesn't cover over the sink, though, so that space is effectively wasted when not using the sink. I can see why they've done it that way - allows nicer sink furniture, and avoids unfamiliar travellers being confused by the lack of a sink. Still a slight loss of space, though.

AIUI, the sleeper deliberately doesn't have much in the way of intermediate stops to make routing it around engineering work easier. There can't be many trains that can be sent up the wrong main line entirely and still serve all their destinations, after all!

Aren't Watford Jnc, Crewe , Preston, Carlisle stops for the sleepers?

 

[33Hz]

It doesn't cover over the sink, though, so that space is effectively wasted when not using the sink. I can see why they've done it that way - allows nicer sink furniture, and avoids unfamiliar travellers being confused by the lack of a sink. Still a slight loss of space, though.

We'd better hope no one makes that mistake with the lid over the toilet...

AIUI, the sleeper deliberately doesn't have much in the way of intermediate stops to make routing it around engineering work easier. There can't be many trains that can be sent up the wrong main line entirely and still serve all their destinations, after all!

What about the good people of Preston and Carlisle?

 

[Kite159]

BTW in the vestibule to the lounge coach, isn't that a shoe polishing device installed in the side wall?

Couldn't get any pictures as I didn't have my phone with me.

(Also in the megabog in the seated coach, the stickers say "push" to operate the soap but actually it's a pull, a silly little thing I noticed when bored on Sunday night)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

BTW in the vestibule to the lounge coach, isn't that a shoe polishing device installed in the side wall?

Yes, it is.

It doesn't cover over the sink, though, so that space is effectively wasted when not using the sink. I can see why they've done it that way - allows nicer sink furniture, and avoids unfamiliar travellers being confused by the lack of a sink. Still a slight loss of space, though.

That's deliberate for the precise reason you've mentioned - so many first time travellers had no idea there was a basin fitted.

 

[RLBH]

That's deliberate for the precise reason you've mentioned - so many first time travellers had no idea there was a basin fitted.

One would have thought that a polite notice along the lines of 'lift to use basin' would also have worked, but I'm sure that this option was passed over for a good reason.

 

[33Hz]

BTW in the vestibule to the lounge coach, isn't that a shoe polishing device installed in the side wall?

https://twitter.com/AlastairDalton/status/992676519381217280

 

[33Hz]

Still keen to see a floorplan if anyone knows where to get one. Man in Seat 61 said:

8 for Glasgow, 8 for Edinburgh. Each portion has 1 seats car, 1 lounge car, 6 sleepers (5 cars with 4 Classic & 6 Club en suite rooms, 1 accessible car with 1 accessible room with double bed, 2 Caledonian Double en suite rooms with dbl bed, 1 accessible with upper & lower berths.

But it looks like there are more rooms in the accessible coach from this photo.

 

[RLBH]

Looks like four doors from that photo:

• One accessible with upper and lower berths, nearest the camera
• Two Caledonian Doubles (presumably in the centre of the car)
• One accessible with double bed (presumably at the far end of the car)

Off the wall thought - an all-Club sleeper would probably have nine Club rooms, and an all-Classic probably twelve. That information, plus £2.75, will get you a cup of coffee.

 

[33Hz]

I can see 4 door handles, but the accessible rooms have the round sliding doors like is shown nearest the camera. The implication being there are more than just 2 doubles between them.

 

[alistairlees]

Still keen to see a floorplan if anyone knows where to get one. Man in Seat 61 said:



But it looks like there are more rooms in the accessible coach from this photo.

View attachment 62329

Just look at the booking process on sleeper.scot. Choose "change reservations" in the basket. Make sure you are looking on or after 2 June.

 

[TimboM]

Looks like four doors from that photo:

• One accessible with upper and lower berths, nearest the camera
• Two Caledonian Doubles (presumably in the centre of the car)
• One accessible with double bed (presumably at the far end of the car)

Off the wall thought - an all-Club sleeper would probably have nine Club rooms, and an all-Classic probably twelve. That information, plus £2.75, will get you a cup of coffee.

I can see 4 door handles, but the accessible rooms have the round sliding doors like is shown nearest the camera. The implication being there are more than just 2 doubles between them.

PRM coach is:

WC
Room #1 Accessible Classic Twin
Room #2 Caledonian Double (en suite)

Room #3 Caledonian Double (en suite)
Room #4 Classic Twin
Room #5 Classic Twin
Room #6 Accessible Double
WC

Sleeper coach is:

Rooms #1 - #6 Club Twin Rooms (en suite)
Rooms #7 - #10 Classic Twin Rooms
WC

If you imagine the typical compartment with the width of the bed/bunk and a similar width alongside it (walk-in space) the Club Twins then have similar width again between each pair of rooms. This is split half and half to provide the WC/shower cubicle to the rooms on either side.​

 

[JonathanH]

If each of the 8-car sleeper sets are formed 150xx-151xx-152xx-153xx-153xx-153xx-153xx-153xx what happens about getting a 152xx coach to Fort William?

Is the Aberdeen / Fort William set formed with two 152xx coaches as standard?

15001-15011 Brake Seated vehicle (9 needed, 2 spare)
15101-15110 Lounge Sleeper vehicle (9 needed, 1 spare)
15201-15214 PRM Sleeper vehicle (10 needed, 4 spares?)
15301-15340 Standard Sleeper vehicle (38 needed, 2 spare?)

Presumably a 153xx coach can be replaced by a 152xx coach based on traffic requirements?

Presumably the arrangement of each half-set doing a 8-day cycle is no longer strictly needed as two sets go to Polmadie each day?

 

[TimboM]

If each of the 8-car sleeper sets are formed 150xx-151xx-152xx-153xx-153xx-153xx-153xx-153xx what happens about getting a 152xx coach to Fort William?

Is the Aberdeen / Fort William set formed with two 152xx coaches as standard?

15001-15011 Brake Seated vehicle (9 needed, 2 spare)
15101-15110 Lounge Sleeper vehicle (9 needed, 1 spare)
15201-15214 PRM Sleeper vehicle (10 needed, 4 spares?)
15301-15340 Standard Sleeper vehicle (38 needed, 2 spare?)

Presumably a 153xx coach can be replaced by a 152xx coach based on traffic requirements?

Presumably the arrangement of each half-set doing a 8-day cycle is no longer strictly needed as two sets go to Polmadie each day?

Whilst it's just the Lowlander, all sets in use are running with just 1x PRM per Unit (Unit = 8 coaches) in the formation you note.

When the Highlander is introduced, each 16 coach rake will be one 1x PRM unit and one 2x PRM unit (in the formation Seats/Club/PRM/Sleepers x4/PRM).

The Unit with 2x PRM is the ABD/FTW portion so that 1x PRM goes to each and the FTW PRM is next to the FTW "day" Club car after the shunts at Waverley.

The INV portion is a 1x PRM Unit.

The stock is due to cycle in a similar way as it did with the old stock I believe, which means one of the Glasgow or Edinburgh portions will have 2x PRM and one will have 1x PRM. I believe it's the GLC portion that was due to have the 2x PRM Unit.

Consequently it's 12 PRMs needed each night (so 2 spares based on your numbers above) and 36 Sleepers (so 4 spare).

Idea is to keep the Units as fixed as possible - not only saves shunting, but the new-fangled TMS will probably get upset if the sets are chopped and changed all the time. If you look at the spares, it's essentially a whole spare (2x PRM) Unit plus one additional spare brake/seats (being the most crucial coach to being able to operate the train).

All this may change of course as operations move from the drawing board to reality.

 

[JonathanH]

Idea is to keep the Units as fixed as possible - not only saves shunting, but the new-fangled TMS will probably get upset if the sets are chopped and changed all the time.

Thanks - that makes sense. The set up is effectively 9 units with 5 formed of 2 PRMs and 4 formed of 1 PRM, then the two day coaches for Fort William and finally an extra 'brake coach'.

From what I saw on Sunday night, both the brake coach and the lounge coach include an office with the Train Management System. This shows the formation of the train with the separate carriages so perhaps not a 'unit' as such to the extent that reforming them cause problems.

 

[Highlandspring]

The TMS is set up so the computer effectively thinks it is a “multiple unit” in the conventional sense. The formation and direction of travel have to be reconfigured at each split or join.

 

[TimboM]

The TMS is set up so the computer effectively thinks it is a “multiple unit” in the conventional sense. The formation and direction of travel have to be reconfigured at each split or join.

So presumably if you change the 'cars' (coaches) in that 'multiple unit' you'd also have to reprogramme/reconfigure the TMS. Clearly not impossible, but in between services when you've also to water/clean/prepare the stock, it's not something you'd want to have to add on to the day's work if it can be avoided.

 

[gordonjahn]

So presumably if you change the 'cars' (coaches) in that 'multiple unit' you'd also have to reprogramme/reconfigure the TMS. Clearly not impossible, but in between services when you've also to water/clean/prepare the stock, it's not something you'd want to have to add on to the day's work if it can be avoided.

Surely as coupled/uncoupled (or even just every few seconds) the TMS just updates with the current configuration as coupling operations progress without manual reconfiguration?!?

Whilst I have worked as a control and instrumentation engineer and as apps support for a microcontroller manufacturer (but automotive systems rather than rail), I've no idea how a TMS really works.

I think I'd configure a TMS with each coach having an identity controller with a data link to each coupler. A TMS coach has an extra port connected on the same data link and when a TMS-enabled coach is coupled, it'd send out query messages on the coupler at each end requesting the train configuration - if there isn't a "next coach" in that direction, it knows it's at the end, otherwise the next coach keeps sending the query to the next coach and as they return data, they add themselves at the end of the list so the TMS coach gets an ordered list of all coaches on that end. Each coach descriptor could then have the carriage number, and a set of flags covering whether it has a TMS, what type of coach it is, etc - you could use the same structure for whether there's a fault with that coach too. Each individual TMS console then knows about the whole consist, and if there are multiple TMS coaches, they can negotiate to elect a master if that's needed (or a train manager can log in at any console).

Are there any public docs or standards for these things or is it all just proprietary stuff?

 

[RLBH]

Are there any public docs or standards for these things or is it all just proprietary stuff?

A standard would make a lot of sense, but seeing as we haven't managed to set a standard for the mechanical interface, there's little hope for a standard data interface.

 

[33Hz]

Just look at the booking process on sleeper.scot. Choose "change reservations" in the basket. Make sure you are looking on or after 2 June.

PRM coach is:

WC
Room #1 Accessible Classic Twin
Room #2 Caledonian Double (en suite)

Room #3 Caledonian Double (en suite)
Room #4 Classic Twin
Room #5 Classic Twin
Room #6 Accessible Double
WC

Sleeper coach is:

Rooms #1 - #6 Club Twin Rooms (en suite)
Rooms #7 - #10 Classic Twin Rooms
WC​

Both useful posts, thanks.

If I go to their website and try to change my room reservation on a PC I get a mish-mash of alternate coaches and it looks like I can choose a coach going to Glasgow when I want to go to Edinburgh.





However if I choose London to Glasgow then I get the correct rake of coaches.

They need to look into this or someone might wake up with a nasty surprise...




Incidentally, Serco have missed a trick here: On the Austrian (formerly DB) coaches they have alternated the en suite and non-en suite rooms so they can have a connecting door between them and they can make a pair of rooms for family of up to 6 with a single bathroom. In the Caledonian sleeper set up if you want to travel as a 4 you have to forgo the bathroom and Serco forgoes the extra revenue...



(Also interesting that beds in German are narrower than in English and two are at the bottom http://rail.arukikata.com/ticket/seat/seat-cnl.pdf)


Anyway, it looks like a fully loaded Caledonian Sleeper would be 278 passengers.

So presumably if you change the 'cars' (coaches) in that 'multiple unit' you'd also have to reprogramme/reconfigure the TMS. Clearly not impossible, but in between services when you've also to water/clean/prepare the stock, it's not something you'd want to have to add on to the day's work if it can be avoided

I think in 2019 it can't be beyond the wit of man to design a system where the TMS interrogates the coaches and they automatically report back which order they are in.

 

[marks87]

I think in 2019 it can't be beyond the wit of man to design a system where the TMS interrogates the coaches and they automatically report back which order they are in.

It's essentially a traversal of a linked list, albeit in physical electronic form.

I'm desperately resisting the temptation to build a simulation of this using linked Arduino boards...

 

[alistairlees]

Both useful posts, thanks.

If I go to their website and try to change my room reservation on a PC I get a mish-mash of alternate coaches and it looks like I can choose a coach going to Glasgow when I want to go to Edinburgh. However if I choose London to Glasgow then I get the correct rake of coaches.

They need to look into this or someone might wake up with a nasty surprise...

View attachment 62360

View attachment 62362

View attachment 62364

This appears to be a problem with the Edinburgh portion only and when it goes via ECML only, unless you can see it on other routes or when it's on the WCML?

 

[33Hz]

This appears to be a problem with the Edinburgh portion only and when it goes via ECML only, unless you can see it on other routes or when it's on the WCML?

I've tried a few other dates and it only happens on Sundays arriving at 5:18, so it looks like you might be right.

 

[bigmoose]

Any insights on how the Lowlander service has been going after the introduction of the Mk5 on Sunday and the signalling-related delays that night?

Teething troubles ironed out with heating, showers, window seals etc?

Running on time?

Food decent?

Coupling and decoupling without a jolt?

Etc etc.....I’m back on it the week after next so I’m keen to know how it’s been settling in.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Get them all running with Mk5 sleepers then give the service a chance to settle in as there here for the next 30 years or so.
There will be teething troubles like every single ongoing project at the moment but will eventually settle down to a reliable, pleasant sleeper service, I'm sure.
Looking forward to using the service later in the year.

 

[Struner]

You're an optimist

 

[33Hz]

Any insights on how the Lowlander service has been going after the introduction of the Mk5 on Sunday and the signalling-related delays that night?

See my post in the main Caledonian Sleeper thread.

In a nutshell: Better but far from perfect. There have also been various boarding and arrival delays for the rest of the week.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Does anyone have a photo of the new coaches that could become the image for the Wikipedia article on the Mk5s? There is currently no image in the article, but a lucky photographer could have their image in this article, which is read by over a hundred people a day.

If you would like to share your photo, then post it to a site like Flickr, which means that Wikipedia can re-use the photo, and reply here (or message me).

 

[superalbs]

If you would like to share your photo, then post it to a site like Flickr, which means that Wikipedia can re-use the photo, and reply here (or message me).

Only if you release it under the right license.

 

[kingqueen]

Heard on the grapevine.

The sewage system is basically overworked because of the amount of toilets in each carriage. Before obviously it was just one set in each carriage and 3 in the "accessible" one because of accessible toilet. Because of the multiple toilets now for the berths with en suites, at some points the staff have had to reshuffle passengers to another berth a few times because the sewage system has been overloaded, and a "sloshing noise" can sometime be heard when they train has been particularly rocky. A few times the blue sewage water has been leaking literally into the berths because of the overflow issue h,moving passengers. Apparently it's been found out the reason for this is because they have been essentially using plastic (or some similar material) piping, and obviously with the sewage chemicals, it's been burning away at the plastic and hence the leakage, because that piping is trying to support sewage/chemical water from multiple toilets.

Berths have an intercom type system so passengers can call (like room service). However they found a few times when the Edinburgh and Glasgow trains get attached together, the wiring connection meant when passengers for example are in the berths going to Edinburgh and try to use it, it has then connected to the staff on the Glasgow part of the train and visa versa, meaning at times obviously they can't be relied on.

The old trains apparently have a covering underneath to prevent things like snow/mud/branches etc being kicked into undercarriage. However the new trains don't have this, and therefore when they trains are running to Fort William, because of the type of terrain, problems start occurring with the train when travelling through that area meaning train delays and having to get engineers clearing out undercarriage all the time. Millions has been poured into the new trains and already these things are happening and causing more havoc for staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The latter seems implausible to be that big an issue, as neither the existing Mk2s nor Class 156s have fairings around the "underbody stuff".