Caledonian Sleeper Mk5 Discussion

[Alanko]

Because half asleep, possibly drunk men on a train moving about the place may have a tendency to, er, distribute their waste product all over the seat and floor?

Not just men... ask anybody who has ever worked in a pub.

 

[TimboM]

Surely, since they had, at least in public, been planning to switch over the Highlander last week, they must have had the two sets for that. Indeed the press release announcing the delay seemed to imply that these sets would be used on alternate nights on the Lowlander, so that each set would have 36 hours time for snagging between duties. Only once the glitches had been ironed out would they introduced on the Highlander.

Up until this weekend there were only 4 Units accepted and in service (a "Unit" = 8 coaches, so two full rakes). These have been working the Lowlander from the outset. If they had the ones ready for the Highlander it probably wouldn't have been delayed...!!

I understand a fifth Unit came into service and that swapped out one of the "original" ones over the weekend so that can now be sorted out.
I don't recall the press release implying any continual switching just allowing 36 hours - the Units taken out of service will be properly sorted out and won't go back into service until they're straight - I suspect that will take (a lot) more than 36 hours.

There's another (sixth) Unit not too far off being ready for service, so that will swap out a second of the "original" four units so that can be properly sorted... and so on until all nine Units (eight required for service plus a spare) are in good nick and Serco are satisfied. Then the launch on the Highlander will occur.

The 75 coaches are made up of 9x 8 car units, plus an extra lounge and brake/seats for the Fort William day coaches and on other spare brake/seats coach.

 

[mk2bfk]

The Mk2s don't work, mostly. The odd, seemingly unique heating system[1] definitely doesn't. That said, if only Euston had a slightly longer platform they'd have been swapped for Mk3s years ago.

[1] I've long wondered why they have a unique blown-air heating system - is it because they're paranoid of having electric radiators in night trains after the Westcountry fire that caused the end of the Mk1 sleepers?

What makes you say it's an odd, unique heating system? Nothing odd or unique about it, that's how Mk2s were built and the systems were continually developed and improved over the years. You have to appreciate that the Mk2 design is roughly some 55-60 years old so there is absolutely no way you can compare like for like. Early Mk2s had a dual steam/electric heating system which ran through a single chamber underneath the carraige which had a fan that blew this heat up and into the saloon via a set of floor ducts. There was of course no air-con until this was fitted in the early 1970s to Mk2d coaches. This was effectively a bolt on system so the air conditioning worked by taking fresh air in above the toilet windows, cooling it in the roof at one end and blowing it out through vents along the carriage roof. The heating continued to be supplied from the same chamber underneath. This sytem was also the same on the slightly later Mk2e coaches. The Sleeper brake coaches are Mk2e BUOs as they were converted from Mk2e TSO standard class coaches.

The later Mk2f coaches had a different HVAC design with the removal of the underfloor heating chest and bodyside radiators placed along the side of the coaches. These were considered slow to warm up and in the air-con system in the roof a set of heating elements was placed additionally so when heating you have hot air both through the roof vents and from the bodyside radiators. Cooling continues to come from the roof alone. The Sleeper lounge cars are converted from Mk2f first opens and therefore they DO have bodyside radiators.

So I'm afraid that both of your assertions are wrong. It's not correct to say that they mostly don't work because they do. You have to consider that both the brakes and lounges were already conversions of a 50 year old coach, so there will be compromises, you also have to consider that the maintainer had planned that they would be long gone by now, so having spare parts, people etc. was not in the plan! The comment about not having radiators isn't true either as the lounge cars do... the reason the brakes aren't any different will simply come down to cost...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. I've long wondered why - you've now provided the answer. I've not been on many older Mk2s so I can perhaps be forgiven for not remembering this heating system being standard.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

May I add my thanks to mk2bfk for coming in on the discussion with such a detailed an informative response.

 

[mk2bfk]

May I add my thanks to mk2bfk for coming in on the discussion with such a detailed an informative response.

Any questions about Mk2s... feel free to ask!

 

[marks87]

A fairly trivial thing, but has there been a modification to the method of closing off the trailing gangway to protect the internal doors from the elements?

When the coaches first arrived in the UK, they appeared to have a pull-down blind (e.g. http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...per-carriages-on-the-road-to-velim-media1.jpg), but on Saturday I thought it looked a bit like a double door (I didn't take a photo unfortunately).

 

[Highlandspring]

The gangways have been replaced as part of the rectification program at Brodies. They now have conventional bi-folding doors rather than the odd roller blind arrangement.

 

[marks87]

The gangways have been replaced as part of the rectification program at Brodies. They now have conventional bi-folding doors rather than the odd roller blind arrangement.

Thanks for confirming.

It certainly looked a lot tidier.

 

[JModulo]

The gangways have been replaced as part of the rectification program at Brodies. They now have conventional bi-folding doors rather than the odd roller blind arrangement.

Some of the coaches towards the middle of the "units" still retain the roller blind doors.

 

[Highlandspring]

It’s an ongoing program of refitting. The two types of gangway are incompatible.

 

[33Hz]

The inability to remove the bunk bed ladder is extremely dissapointing, as this severely constricts the space available in the bottom bunk, and makes it feel much more cramped and uncomfortable - especially when waking up in the middle of the night all groggy and then bumping into (as others have told me). The fact that it is fixed created much more problems with screws causing rattling, as outlined. I much prefer the way GWR have inovated their ladder design. As we all know, on the Mk3s the ladder rattles constantly when hung on spare coathangers, unless the top bunk is unoccupied which is where I normally store it. But retaining it when the top bunk is set reduces the space in the bottom bunk to move about - however this is more prominant on the Mk5s due to the Mk5 ladder being completely verticle and fixed onto the bottom bunk's underframe, whereas on the Mk3s, they were angled, which allowed for more room in the bottom bunk. GWR's design on their refurbished sleeping carriages of having the ladder fold into the wall for use as needed, is an extremely efficient and useful piece of inovative design. It's little things like this which go a long way to improving passenger experience. Unfortunatley, the general trend on the Mk5s is that every improvement over the Mk3s has a trade off, or the improvements are overshadowed by aspects of design and provision that were present on the Mk3s but completely bypassed for the design on the Mk5s.

I recently had the opportunity to travel on a Spanish Renfe Trenhotel. Their ladder design is genius - it folds out from the opposite wall to make a small staircase and has a handle to release it at both levels. Not a hint of rattle from it either, despite the stock overall being a bit old and need of refresh (if indeed they bother to keep the service going). It's a shame that CAF didn't look to their Spanish competitor when surveying what is possible.

 

[Caleb2010]

(Please move to the main Sleeper forum if this isn't the correct forum )

There's set of Mk5's stabled in the far reaches of Inverness yard!

I take it that these are there for crew training purposes, didn't see a loco so, static training only then!

The 67 used on the current stock is unable to couple to the Mk5's so I just wondered quite what the training would consist of?

Would there be a shore supply for everything electric? Is that shore supply able to replicate every thing a loco could offer?
I know that some shore supplies only give enough power to run essential services - so wonder if the crews would have thorough training - or the same 'serco' training that the crews already using the Mk5's got!

 

[TimboM]

(Please move to the main Sleeper forum if this isn't the correct forum )

There's set of Mk5's stabled in the far reaches of Inverness yard!

I take it that these are there for crew training purposes, didn't see a loco so, static training only then!

The 67 used on the current stock is unable to couple to the Mk5's so I just wondered quite what the training would consist of?

Would there be a shore supply for everything electric? Is that shore supply able to replicate every thing a loco could offer?
I know that some shore supplies only give enough power to run essential services - so wonder if the crews would have thorough training - or the same 'serco' training that the crews already using the Mk5's got!

It's a half-rake (Unit 7) there for training/testing.
73968 and 73970 are/were in attendance with it, although one of them had to run off to Dundee after the issues with the 73/9 on that last night.

 

[Caleb2010]

Ahh, thanks - it does make more sense now, I saw it when I arrived at inverness from Elgin this morning! Was going to check on the way out to Edinburgh but ended up being taxied to edb - mk3a failure.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I see there's still a pair of 73's with some mk5s at Inverness, are they likely to be leaving soon? I've not managed to spot them on RTT

 

[TimboM]

I see there's still a pair of 73's with some mk5s at Inverness, are they likely to be leaving soon? I've not managed to spot them on RTT

Arrived late Fri pm and in Inverness for a few days for operational testing / training then due to head to Aberdeen.

Two STP paths in leaving Inverness Millburn at c1600 on Tuesday to Aberdeen Clayhills - one via Perth and one direct: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...2019/09/10/0000-2359?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt

73968 / 969 are the locos.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Thanks very much for the information, I didn't realise Aberdeen Clayhills would be their destination.

 

[James James]

Found a photo of the new bi-folding doors - in fact it looks like they've replaced the entire gangway assembly, see 2nd photo on this page:
http://www.revolutiontrains.com/sleepers-to-scotland-with-revolution/

Sad to hear about the issue with these new trains - but I have to say I found my experience on the old Mk3's better than a recent journey on the continental NightJet (although this was on the Basel-Berlin route which seems to involve more higher speed sections, and correspondingly aggressive stops....).

 

[marks87]

Found a photo of the new bi-folding doors - in fact it looks like they've replaced the entire gangway assembly, see 2nd photo on this page:
http://www.revolutiontrains.com/sleepers-to-scotland-with-revolution/

Yes, the corridor connection used to extend down to encase the coupling as well:

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...per-carriages-on-the-road-to-velim-media1.jpg

 

[BRX]

(although this was on the Basel-Berlin route which seems to involve more higher speed sections, and correspondingly aggressive stops....).

I've found this on many night train trips recently (was it ever any different?) - the style of driving doesn't seem to take into account the type of train and its sleeping passengers. It's not just aggressive braking to reduce from high speed (does more modern stock make this possible and more noticeable than before?) but that final stop when the train comes to a halt - not carried out gently at all but with a violent lurch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've found this on many night train trips recently (was it ever any different?) - the style of driving doesn't seem to take into account the type of train and its sleeping passengers. It's not just aggressive braking to reduce from high speed (does more modern stock make this possible and more noticeable than before?) but that final stop when the train comes to a halt - not carried out gently at all but with a violent lurch.

That's my experience of European night trains too, and no, it was never any different. Certainly German train driving practice is "positive braking" - i.e. whack it all in down to a very precise but sharp stop, even in bay platforms. Indeed, modern stock is a bit better because disc brakes aren't as noisy - on older coaches it would make an almighty racket as well as being rough.

 

[BRX]

That's my experience of European night trains too, and no, it was never any different. Certainly German train driving practice is "positive braking" - i.e. whack it all in down to a very precise but sharp stop, even in bay platforms. Indeed, modern stock is a bit better because disc brakes aren't as noisy - on older coaches it would make an almighty racket as well as being rough.

Yes I do remember that being the case on regular German day trains when they were still all older loco hauled stock... Especially those silver coaches you used to get on local trains - there would always be a rather noisy and screeching arrival at stations.

 

[James James]

I've found this on many night train trips recently (was it ever any different?) - the style of driving doesn't seem to take into account the type of train and its sleeping passengers. It's not just aggressive braking to reduce from high speed (does more modern stock make this possible and more noticeable than before?) but that final stop when the train comes to a halt - not carried out gently at all but with a violent lurch.

I swear it was much better when I took a non-nightjet sleeper from Switzerland to Prague - although even that train is tagged on the back of a Nightjet through Austria for most of the night. That train seems to go much slower in general, but the stops also seemed gentler (but I was also sleeping much better so I wasn't awake to judge the stops). Does sound like it could be a German-train-driver thing.

 

[BRX]

I swear it was much better when I took a non-nightjet sleeper from Switzerland to Prague - although even that train is tagged on the back of a Nightjet through Austria for most of the night. That train seems to go much slower in general, but the stops also seemed gentler (but I was also sleeping much better so I wasn't awake to judge the stops). Does sound like it could be a German-train-driver thing.

Or Austrian-driver-thing in that case.

 

[33Hz]

Not been following the CS reliability issues for the past year, but had they managed to get things more or less under control come the lockdown? I still see the odd tweet from CS announcing a late departure out of Euston, but have they got the issues with leaking bathrooms, check in and the like under control? I'm considering another trip on it when the situation returns to normal.

 

[OmniCity999]

Not been following the CS reliability issues for the past year, but had they managed to get things more or less under control come the lockdown? I still see the odd tweet from CS announcing a late departure out of Euston, but have they got the issues with leaking bathrooms, check in and the like under control? I'm considering another trip on it when the situation returns to normal.

I've been taking the sleeper throughout the easing of lockdown for work quite regularly and its been in time every time with no issues. Didn't know any any check in issues? My rooms for the last couple weeks have been filthy though. With the amenty kits half used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been taking the sleeper throughout the easing of lockdown for work quite regularly and its been in time every time with no issues. Didn't know any any check in issues? My rooms for the last couple weeks have been filthy though. With the amenty kits half used.

Given COVID, that's very concerning. Have you made a formal complaint? A minimum standard is clearly that the room should be thoroughly cleaned and disinfected with all disposables replaced or removed entirely.

 

[33Hz]

Didn't know any any check in issues?

When I took it a year ago, the check-in process on the platform was like Fawlty Towers.

 

[OmniCity999]

When I took it a year ago, the check-in process on the platform was like Fawlty Towers.

They just check your ticket number and take your name then direct you to the correct carriage. How could that possibly be difficult?