Caledonian Sleeper -Why Scotrail?

[ScottGallagher]

I've often wondered why the Caledonian Sleeper wasn't made part of the West Coast Franchise at privitisation when it's South West equivalent was included with the long distance Great Western and not Wales and West. Was is it down to crewing logistics or Scottish Influence!?

 

[hexagon789]

I've often wondered why the Caledonian Sleeper wasn't made part of the West Coast Franchise at privitisation when it's South West equivalent was included with the long distance Great Western and not Wales and West. Was is it down to crewing logistics or Scottish Influence!?

British Rail themselves did that, responsibility for the Anglo-Scottish "Caledonian" Sleepers passed from InterCity West Coast to ScotRail in 1995. So it was part of ScotRail at privitisation.

 

[ainsworth74]

British Rail themselves did that, responsibility for the Anglo-Scottish "Caledonian" Sleepers passed from InterCity West Coast to ScotRail in 1995. So it was part of ScotRail at privitisation.

It might be apocryphal but wasn't part of the reason for that down to it seeing as being a drag on InterCity West Coast so farming it out to ScotRail made ICWC more attractive to bidders by reducing the complexity and removing an operation with high subsidy?

 

[ScottGallagher]

Ah I see, and i suppose it was a revenue stream /loss to transfer too .How a sleeper service would have fared under a Virgin brand would have been interesting

 

[hexagon789]

It might be apocryphal but wasn't part of the reason for that down to it seeing as being a drag on InterCity West Coast so farming it out to ScotRail made ICWC more attractive to bidders by reducing the complexity and removing an operation with high subsidy?

I think it was about then BR wanted to axe the Fort William sleeper. Highland Council lobbied for it's retention and the Court of Session ruled the correct closure procedure hadn't been followed. So BR retained it but reduced the number of sleeping cars.

Possibly part of that retention process was shifting responsibility from ICWC to ScotRail?

 

[Bald Rick]

From memory, it was simply because the sleeper operation was such a basket case financially that it was better to go with Scotrail (also a basket case), where it would be better politically, and the losses on the sleeper would not be out of place.

Had it landed with ICWC, the losses would have been very obvious, and in the world of privatisation as was then expected, they would not have lasted long.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Just remember that a certain very senior BR manager who had once been GM in Scotland and later Sector Director of Intercity found himself back in Scotland in 1994.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Just remember that a certain very senior BR manager who had once been GM in Scotland and later Sector Director of Intercity found himself back in Scotland in 1994.

And who also a few years later found himself brought back on West Coast again as a White Knight of sorts!

 

[dubscottie]

BR planned to cut them when XC and WC went private as they would put off potential bidders. IIRC the main reason for the switch to ScotRail was because the Scottish Office & then the Scottish Parliament (once formed) paid the subsidy to keep them running. They would be gone otherwise. There was talk about a separate franchise at the time.

The only victim was the Scotland - SW England sleeper as the market vanished for that a year or two earlier when the RN pulled out of Rosyth. ICWC provided locos (6 x class 87) & drivers south of Edinburgh/Glasgow until both ICWC and ScotRail went private in March 1997.

 

[47271]

British Rail themselves did that, responsibility for the Anglo-Scottish "Caledonian" Sleepers passed from InterCity West Coast to ScotRail in 1995. So it was part of ScotRail at privitisation.

I would agree with that, but according to Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScotRail_(British_Rail)

ScotRail was responsible for all passenger services that operated wholly within Scotland. It also operated services across the English border to Carlisle, and from 5 March 1988, took over operation of the Caledonian Sleeper services to London Euston.[2] Services from south of the border via the East Coast and West Coast Main Lines remained the responsibility of InterCity.

A 1988 transfer seems very early to me, doesn't really square with the Scotland-Plymouth operation which lasted well into the 90s, and I'm sure had nothing to do with Scotrail, and is ignored in the Wiki entry.

Do you have a reference for 1995? I ask the question not to challenge you, but to be sceptical about Wikipedia.

 

[dubscottie]

I would agree with that, but according to Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScotRail_(British_Rail)


A 1988 transfer seems very early to me, doesn't really square with the Scotland-Plymouth operation which lasted well into the 90s, and I'm sure had nothing to do with Scotrail, and is ignored in the Wiki entry.

Do you have a reference for 1995? I ask the question not to challenge you, but to be sceptical about Wikipedia.

1988 is a load of tosh! Even 1998 would be wrong. Thats the problem with Wikipedia. The bidding for ICWC started about 1995 so it sounds about right. The Inverness & Aberdeen locos went from 2 x IC class 37+GenVan to RES class 47 in May 1995 and I am sure that coincided with the changeover and the end of the XC sleeper.

 

[47271]

1988 is a load of tosh! Even 1998 would be wrong. Thats the problem with Wikipedia. The bidding for ICWC started about 1995 so it sounds about right. The Inverness & Aberdeen locos went from 2 x IC class 37+GenVan to RES class 47 in May 1995 and I am sure that coincided with the changeover and the end of the XC sleeper.

Yes, that all makes sense, and I know that it was 1995 when the Fort William section was under threat. Did the remaining Motorail routes get the chop as part of the same pre privatisation purge, I think that they might have done?

 

[dubscottie]

Yes, that all makes sense, and I know that it was 1995 when the Fort William section was under threat. Did the remaining Motorail routes get the chop as part of the same pre privatisation purge, I think that they might have done?

They did but I seen to recall some private crowd starting something between London & Carlisle/Glasgow. They used the side loading well wagons to get the cars on/off at platforms to avoid having to shunt the GUVs. It was only a trial around 1995 or 1996 and didn't last long!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/justindperkins/3287668750/

 

[Bletchleyite]

They did but I seen to recall some private crowd starting something between London & Carlisle/Glasgow. They used the side loading well wagons to get the cars on/off at platforms to avoid having to shunt the GUVs. It was only a trial around 1995 or 1996 and didn't last long!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/justindperkins/3287668750/

I don't recall that one but FGW did do it for a bit: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rpmarks/6814568739 for a photo.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Is the Night Riviera a loss maker too?

 

[hexagon789]

I would agree with that, but according to Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScotRail_(British_Rail)


A 1988 transfer seems very early to me, doesn't really square with the Scotland-Plymouth operation which lasted well into the 90s, and I'm sure had nothing to do with Scotrail, and is ignored in the Wiki entry.

Do you have a reference for 1995? I ask the question not to challenge you, but to be sceptical about Wikipedia.

I do somewhere, but I've that many books I'd need to check a few. 1988 seems way too early though.

 

[hexagon789]

They did but I seen to recall some private crowd starting something between London & Carlisle/Glasgow. They used the side loading well wagons to get the cars on/off at platforms to avoid having to shunt the GUVs. It was only a trial around 1995 or 1996 and didn't last long!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/justindperkins/3287668750/

I believe at Glasgow they used platform 10 as other was then and the approx 1405 departure for Euston I believe was the one which conveyed Motorail vehicles, being a slower working with more stops. The GUVs were 100 max, so that would've impacted on running times with the Glasgow services being normally timed for 110mph.