Caledonian Sleeper

[BigCj34]

I think realistically it's only rail enthusiasts who would consider day-tripping a journey of that length, and having used the FW seats very, very few people use the northbound service as a day train, it's just too early. (It is used reasonably well in the other direction, though).

FWIW, the lack of a Sunday morning train from FW to Glasgow is I believe being remedied this winter (until now you had to use the morning Citylink bus, and it often books up well in advance). It will be interesting to see if that causes a reduction in sleeper passengers by making it possible to reach the South East by daytime train on a Sunday in winter, which wasn't previously possible.

Assuming availability, even a regular service could fulfil the role 19:00 FW to Glasgow service, with an early Sunday service probably as a repositioning run. Having 2 day services on the Sunday is very low.

When did the Sleeper last run on a Saturday? Now it's more popular than ever is it worth another shot?

 

[awsnews]

Looks like a test run for the FW portion is scheduled for Wednesday:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K03397/2019/09/18/advanced

 

[MrEd]

My understanding of the trigger for this strike action, which was voted for some time ago but suspended, is that Serco is attempting to introduce new stock onto the Highlander before staff are happy that it is practical and safe to do so.

This is likely to explain its precise dates from the last Sunday in September onwards.

Sleeper crew are probably amongst the least militant on the railway so, on this occasion, and because of the reasons provided, I think strike action is entirely legitimate.

Remember the last time they voted to strike in late 2015 was on grounds of safety and maintenance on the old stock. In the end standards were improved and industrial action didn't take place.

As a regular traveller I agree with everything you say. The strike may actually give Serco the wake-up call that they need. I seemed to think that staff did go on strike for two days just before Christmas 2015, and that this strike action was the catalyst for improvements to maintenance on the Mk2s and Mk3s.

 

[47271]

As a regular traveller I agree with everything you say. The strike may actually give Serco the wake-up call that they need. I seemed to think that staff did go on strike for two days just before Christmas 2015, and that this strike action was the catalyst for improvements to maintenance on the Mk2s and Mk3s.

Actually, maybe you're right and the 2015 strike did go ahead. Anyway, whether it did or it didn't, the point is that it was effective in that maintenance standards improved, and both then as now the vote for action was decided on genuine grounds and not agitation by the RMT.

The Highlander desperately needs the new stock, the old stuff is falling to bits, but if this is the only way of forcing the operator to be realistic about its capacity to deliver without a terrible cost to quality of service and the wellbeing of crews then so be it.

A two day strike won't bring the franchise tumbling down any sooner than a new catalogue of disasters on Drumochter or Rannoch Moor.

 

[Carlisle]

Serco tend to be a tad tone-deaf when it comes to employee relations…

In that case, they must have changed significantly since winning the old Northern franchise where the general feeling suggested they’d a relatively good reputation in staff relations

 

[cambsy]

If there isn’t a resolution to the upcoming proposed strike at end of September, could Serco/Caledonian Sleeper still run the service with non RMT members like other TOC’s have done during strikes?.

I know the Highlander Staff want the introduction of the Mk5 sleeper stock put back, more time to familiarise with, but they have already been put back to end of September, and am sure there has been training taking place, and to get hands on experience of running in the real world they need the stock running day in day out, so they will eventually have to go on the new stock in passenger service, so why not just get on with it, get experience as they go along, the RMT members could shoot themselves in the foot as the Scottish government/Serco could just get in new staff who will do the job, they will lose patience if More and more delays, my job is stressful but i dont have some union crying strike if things get on top of me, just have to suck it up and push on, or leave job, i have not got much sympathy if the RMT and its members go on strike and delays introduction of the new stock to the Highlander, as though the old stock has its charms it is rather dilapidated and worn out, even when went on it couple years ago, so all new stock service is needed, I have sympathy that they have to face irate demanding passengers and put under pressure but they are not winning support if they go on strike and stuff up lots of peoples trips, I hope the strike is called of and sense is seen as if it goes ahead they are just putting the sleeper service at risk as I’m sure the Scottish government/Serco are now died up with the whole sleeper debacle and just want things to settle down which seems to have happened with the Lowlander, I’m sure the Scottish government will be kicking the RMT butt over this.

 

[Struner]

[…] I don’t see the change to the sleeper offer making much of s dent in that market - it’s clearly aimed at higher end tourists.

& that’s exactly what’s wrong with it. It’s subsidised by Scots, but they can’t afford to use it.

 

[cambsy]

It has gone expensive, for my 7 day ALR 1st Class, i have spent 580 for 4 nights on the Caledonian sleeper with 2 nights in Club at 170 a night and 2 nights in Classic at 120 a night, hurt my wallet a lot, just hoping its not messed up by proposed strike.

 

[alistairlees]

& that’s exactly what’s wrong with it. It’s subsidised by Scots, but they can’t afford to use it.

It’s subsidised by Transport Scotland - but is that the same as ‘Scots’? I suspect not. Anyway, there are plenty of Scottish people on it when I use it.

 

[Altnabreac]

To bring it all back on topic I will be driving from Glasgow to Fort William on Friday (a beautiful drive) to pick up a regular Flexipass traveller who will be arriving from London on the Sleeper for a mornings work in Lochaber followed by a trip into the hills beyond.

Without the Sleeper both the work and tourism parts of the trip would be much more challenging as Lochaber is not easy to reach by other means.

Without the car the hill walking part of the weekend would be much more restricted.

They complement each other.

 

[Struner]

It’s subsidised by TS, so by the Scottish government I suppose? & the government is free to spend it on something else - with support of parliament of course.

 

[Antman]

Without the Sleeper both the work and tourism parts of the trip would be much more challenging as Lochaber is not easy to reach by other means.

Without the car the hill walking part of the weekend would be much more restricted.

They complement each other.

Typically I fly LGW to INV and rent a car. And send the kit up to the hotel by courier. Saves a load of time.

 

[47271]

Typically I fly LGW to INV and rent a car. And send the kit up to the hotel by courier. Saves a load of time.

Why do you bother posting on this thread then?

 

[MrEd]

It’s subsidised by Transport Scotland - but is that the same as ‘Scots’? I suspect not. Anyway, there are plenty of Scottish people on it when I use it.

What I think @Struner means, and it’s a very valid point, is that the train in its current setup with its current fare structure does not actually fulfil the purpose for which it is (or is supposed to be) subsidised. The Scottish Government traditionally justified the subsidy from the point of view of social necessity- connecting communities at opposite ends of the UK, and ensuring that (in the case of the Highlander) remote Highland/rural communities had a direct rail link with London and vice versa, for the purposes of work/leisure/visiting family/whatever. In the First Group era, the train was used by folk from all walks of life, not all of whom were necessarily affluent. The point was that it provided them a convenient and affordable means of travelling between London and Scotland. You got the impression, whether rightly or wrongly, that the purpose of the service was to connect communities, rather than as a tourist attraction (although obviously tourists of all sorts used it too, as it fulfilled their needs without breaking the bank). The lounge car, about 5 years ago, used to be a fantastic place for mixing with people and meeting people for that very reason. I hate to say this, but I don’t personally see a train only useful to wealthy tourists (on account of astronomical fares) as a good use of government subsidy. I have talked to a number of Highlanders about the prospect using the sleeper to visit folk down south, who normally fly for this purpose, and they would love to use it (because they don’t like the hassle or inconvenience of airports, and don’t relish the thought of a day train, and don’t want to drive huge distances), if only the fares were more affordable and the reliability were better. Perhaps I am just being idealistic and the kind of service I had in mind (which I think many enjoyed in the First Group era) is unattainable and unsustainable in the present day.

Perhaps there are wider political reasons for the subsidy, but I cannot imagine most taxpayers being happy about continuing to subsidise a train service which is significantly beyond their financial reach. At the end of the day, CS is public transport, not a luxury cruise train. Some day soon the question will be asked as to whether this is a sensible use of public money. I am a massive fan of the sleeper and would be extremely sad if it did not survive, but I think both Serco and the Scottish Government have got some serious questions to ask. I’m not saying for one moment that we need to bring First Group back (indeed it wasn’t all plain sailing back then) but perhaps we can look at some of the positives of the previous operation. I do get the impression that passengers were much happier with the service back then than they are now.

 

[sheff1]

I do get the impression that passengers were much happier with the service back then than they are now.

If you offer a 'cheap and cheerful' service to get people from A-B in reasonable comfort at a reasonable price expectations are set accordingly. If you offer a "luxury" service and then provide something a long way from luxury, customers (sorry, guests) will, quite rightly, be less than happy.

 

[47271]

I'm more relaxed about the downsides of the 'luxury' offer than many on this thread.

Should Serco's management of the train fail, which on present form is probably more likely than not, other than the extravagant double beds, there's very little that couldn't be transferred to an operation and pricing better aligned to day to day demand. Ensuites are a reasonable passenger expectation in a way that they weren't when the mk3s were built in the early 80s. What else about the new stock makes it impossible to run it in the way that Scotrail operated the sleeper ten years ago?

 

[Meerkat]

Perhaps there are wider political reasons for the subsidy, but I cannot imagine most taxpayers being happy about continuing to subsidise a train service which is significantly beyond their financial reach

The noisiest people who made sure the sleeper survived probably can still afford it. The rest probably didn’t use it before but bought into the ‘Westminster government cutting Scottish services’ propaganda.
So the answer was to keep it going but try to minimise the losses by going upmarket.
Now the trains are built I don’t see them getting cheaper to run so if the upmarket policy fails the sleeper probably gets canned (which will be easier now as they can use the ‘it was subsidising the rich as only they can afford it’ attack)

 

[marks87]

I'm more relaxed about the downsides of the 'luxury' offer than many on this thread.

Should Serco's management of the train fail, which on present form is probably more likely than not, other than the extravagant double beds, there's very little that couldn't be transferred to an operation and pricing better aligned to day to day demand. Ensuites are a reasonable passenger expectation in a way that they weren't when the mk3s were built in the early 80s. What else about the new stock makes it impossible to run it in the way that Scotrail operated the sleeper ten years ago?

On a practical level, the Dellner couplers, and power demands for the full 16-coach trains. Both might seem minor, but they severely restrict the haulage options in the event of a failure.

 

[MrEd]

I'm more relaxed about the downsides of the 'luxury' offer than many on this thread.

Should Serco's management of the train fail, which on present form is probably more likely than not, other than the extravagant double beds, there's very little that couldn't be transferred to an operation and pricing better aligned to day to day demand. Ensuites are a reasonable passenger expectation in a way that they weren't when the mk3s were built in the early 80s. What else about the new stock makes it impossible to run it in the way that Scotrail operated the sleeper ten years ago?

I too would be very interested to know the answer to this, as I think that many positives could be taken from the Scotrail operation from ten years ago. I would perhaps simplify the catering (both in the evenings and at breakfast) and have it as it was in Scotrail days- you still had a good selection of hot meals, drinks and snacks, but the menu wasn’t as vast, expensive or complex and the lounge could be run much more efficiently. I’m not sure what you’d do with the double beds, but could you not just have the en-suites as first class berths like they used to be, and the classic non en-suite rooms as standard berths, and reintroduce the pricing structure from Scotrail days? I would consider reinstating ‘share with a stranger’ in standard as a cost-effective option, provided that the option of guaranteed solo occupancy of a standard berth for a supplement was possible too. This gives passengers a cost-effective option (and means that those who do not want to share a berth under any circumstances are also happy).

 

[MrEd]

The noisiest people who made sure the sleeper survived probably can still afford it. The rest probably didn’t use it before but bought into the ‘Westminster government cutting Scottish services’ propaganda.
So the answer was to keep it going but try to minimise the losses by going upmarket.
Now the trains are built I don’t see them getting cheaper to run so if the upmarket policy fails the sleeper probably gets canned (which will be easier now as they can use the ‘it was subsidising the rich as only they can afford it’ attack)

I agree with this in terms of policy, but I’m thinking of GWR’s Night Riviera as a useful comparison for CS. This service obviously relies on government subsidy (I can’t imagine it’s noticeably more profitable than CS, although it is a simpler and shorter distance operation), but GWR have not (as far as I can see) felt the need to ‘go upmarket’ nor to price less well heeled passengers out of the market. What, I wonder, is stopping CS from being run according to the same model as the Night Riviera? Is it perhaps the massive investment in new stock compared with the refurbishment of the Night Riviera Mk3s? Or is the Night Riviera model not sustainable in the long term? Clearly the Mk3s used on the Riviera will not last forever, but does the Riviera have a long-term future?

 

[MrEd]

If you offer a 'cheap and cheerful' service to get people from A-B in reasonable comfort at a reasonable price expectations are set accordingly. If you offer a "luxury" service and then provide something a long way from luxury, customers (sorry, guests) will, quite rightly, be less than happy.

This is precisely why I am sceptical about the marketing strategy, as I do not think that the luxury product can reliably be delivered on a service train on the National rail network (with all the constraints that such an operation entails), and invariably means that passengers feel short-changed in the event of even the slightest hiccup. If folk are on a £50 per head bargain berth, the lack of a lounge car is perhaps merely a minor inconvenience, but for folk paying £200-£300+ a head for a first class ticket on the new stock, the lack of catering destroys the experience and makes them wonder what they bothered paying for.

 

[awsnews]

Looks like a test run for the FW portion is scheduled for Wednesday:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K03397/2019/09/18/advanced

Recorded as cancelled due to a 'planning error'. I guess that given the availability of locos it is impossible to do a complete dry run with the Highlander stock and run the normal service at the same time, which doesn't make de-risking the entry in to service any easier.

 

[Steamysandy]

This is precisely why I am sceptical about the marketing strategy, as I do not think that the luxury product can reliably be delivered on a service train on the National rail network (with all the constraints that such an operation entails), and invariably means that passengers feel short-changed in the event of even the slightest hiccup. If folk are on a £50 per head bargain berth, the lack of a lounge car is perhaps merely a minor inconvenience, but for folk paying £200-£300+ a head for a first class ticket on the new stock, the lack of catering destroys the experience and makes them wonder what they bothered paying for.

What I found interesting was that as soon as Serco was given the Caledonian Sleeper Franchise,they bailed out of the Australian franchises they had (Indian Pacific,the Ghan,the Overland)
These are all Luxury Long distance trains of High Class.Did they think the Caledonian Sleeper was going to be in a Similar class.
I think they definitely miss understood what they were taking on

 

[Meerkat]

GWR presumably haven’t gone upmarket because their old stock doesn’t allow it.
I don’t think it is fair to judge the CS concept whilst it has been utterly failed by CAF and staff shortages.

 

[Jocques]

It's never going to make money. I was affected by the disruption a few weeks ago and just received an email, saying I'm getting half the fare refunded, plus an extra £15 for the inconvenience of not having a sleep kit or being offered breakfast.

 

[route101]

Going seated tomorrow from Glasgow , do CS still provide eye masks ? If not where can i get them?

 

[Meerkat]

Eye masks are available in Boots in there little travel sections. Ear plugs too...

 

[JModulo]

Going seated tomorrow from Glasgow , do CS still provide eye masks ? If not where can i get them?

Eye masks and ear plugs are still provided in the seats and berths.

 

[superalbs]

Strange question, but did they ever bother with those automated announcements, I seem to recall there was a big fuss made over who was doing them?

 

[JModulo]

Strange question, but did they ever bother with those automated announcements, I seem to recall there was a big fuss made over who was doing them?

They did, however they usually don't work properly or are switched off altogether.