Caledonian Sleeper

[Hadders]

The Fort William portion will call at Glasgow Queen Street Low Level to set down (from London) or pick up (going to London).

Ordinarily the call at Queen Street LL allows pick up only (northbound) and set down only (southbound) as the seats are available for use as a normal 'day train' to/from Fort William. Is this no longer the case or is Queen Street LL now a full call?

 

[alistairlees]

It’s either a full call or the pick up / drop off is reversed. I haven’t checked.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no lowlander service to Glasgow from 15/7

The ftw portion of highlander is diverted via GLQ LL.

It already runs that way and calls there and has done for ages, though set down only from FW/pick up only to FW in normal circumstances.

 

[Oscar46016]

Yes, there will be two trains:
1. Highlander to Inverness (8 coaches) and Fort William (4 or 5 coaches), splitting or joining at Edinburgh as now. The Fort William portion will call at Glasgow Queen Street Low Level to set down (from London) or pick up (going to London). There will be no Aberdeen portion for now.
2. Lowlander to Edinburgh only (8 coaches). There will be no Glasgow Central portion.

so is Train 1 8 coaches and splits into 4 and4 or 12 coaches and splits into 8 and 4?
Thanks

 

[alistairlees]

so is Train 1 8 coaches and splits into 4 and4 or 12 coaches and splits into 8 and 4?
Thanks

12 I believe. Might be 11 from Euston or even 10 - depends on the number of ftw sleeping cars. Two more coaches (seats and club car) get added to the ftw sleepers at Edinburgh. The other 8 go through to Inverness.

 

[InOban]

But as stated on one of the first posts on this topic, the seated coach remains closed throughout the journey, so it can't pick up any seated passengers at LL or anywhere else. It has to be present, I understand from earlier posts, because it houses the train management system.

 

[NBC Soap Oper]

As a mega Transport AND Train fanatic I'd so love to "travel that Train", be a dream come true

Saying it's epic from articles I've read about it - don't do the word epic jusice!!

 

[MrEd]

12 I believe. Might be 11 from Euston or even 10 - depends on the number of ftw sleeping cars. Two more coaches (seats and club car) get added to the ftw sleepers at Edinburgh. The other 8 go through to Inverness.

I’m not sure what the forecast for loadings is given how uncertain everything is, but last year, in high summer, the Fort William portion loaded up to 4 sleeping cars+seats and lounge. Perhaps you will be able to manage with 3 at first this year- I am not sure how popular getting off at 5.30am in Queen Street Low Level will be for the Glasgow pax- hardly an attractive connection that‘s for sure (but serviceable if you’re an essential worker with no other option). Presumably, as there is no need for a lounge car, and only one brake coach is needed in the set, the Fort William sleepers can simply be added to the main London-Inverness section between London and Edinburgh, and have a new brake coach attached in Edinburgh, as before? So would it perhaps be load 11/12 out of Euston, brake+Inverness lounge+6 Inverness sleepers+3/4 FTW sleepers?

 

[MrEd]

What will the crewing situation be like after 15/7? Presumably the London and Scottish Train Managers and Hosts will still be swapping in Lockerbie? Presumably there are fewer on-board crew now that the lounge car service is stopped, presumably it’s just 1 host for every 2 sleeping cars and a Train Manager? Is there still a need for an overall Team Leader to manage the hosts, or do the Team Leaders simply act as carriage hosts for the time being?

Presumably the catering offering has been simplified so that the breakfast supplies are just kept in the pantries at the end of the corridor?

 

[MrEd]

But as stated on one of the first posts on this topic, the seated coach remains closed throughout the journey, so it can't pick up any seated passengers at LL or anywhere else. It has to be present, I understand from earlier posts, because it houses the train management system.

You’re right on both points. Seated coach is essential as a brake coach and for the TMS, but is closed to the public for the foreseeable. The sleeper cannot be used as a day train between Edinburgh and Fort William or Kingussie and Inverness.

 

[MrEd]

As a mega Transport AND Train fanatic I'd so love to "travel that Train", be a dream come true

Saying it's epic from articles I've read about it - don't do the word epic jusice!!

It’s an amazing journey, I do agree (especially the Fort William section). You ideally need the lounge car to enjoy the West Highland line scenery properly, though, so if you were doing it for the first time I’d recommend that you waited for the lounge car to be back in action (which will probably not be until social distancing measures can be lifted). One to look forward to for the winter or spring/summer 2021 (whenever things get back to normal).

 

[PG]

Since (from 15th July) the Aberdeen portion will remain suspended, is there much of a desire by Roads Transport Scotland to reinstate it or is this a convenient time to *cough* forget about reinstating it?

 

[MrEd]

Since (from 15th July) the Aberdeen portion will remain suspended, is there much of a desire by Roads Transport Scotland to reinstate it or is this a convenient time to *cough* forget about reinstating it?

I wondered about that too, though it is a franchise requirement so it probably would be expected to return post-COVID. I myself wondered why they chose to reinstate Fort William in place of Aberdeen, given that Aberdeen is arguably a more useful destination for key workers in utilities, healthcare and the offshore industry (and the Aberdeen portion serves much more significant centres of population, specifically Dundee), and what tourism does get up and running will be in a limited and restricted form (and can easily use the existing Inverness service). That said, it would probably carry fresh air most nights (at least with the FW, if tourism is reinstated you’ll get a few UK tourists each night).

I was surprised to see the Glasgow part of the Lowlander canned too- perhaps this in truth would carry fresh air most nights, and an Edinburgh Lowlander with sociable departure and arrival times was seen as a much greater priority.

CS (in my view) have (even pre-COVID) always seen the Aberdeen and Glasgow sections as something of a nuisance rather than a service to be passionate about, and do relatively little to promote them. I wonder if there are some political games afoot?

 

[PG]

I myself wondered why they chose to reinstate Fort William in place of Aberdeen, given that Aberdeen is arguably a more useful destination for key workers in utilities, healthcare and the offshore industry (and the Aberdeen portion serves much more significant centres of population, specifically Dundee), and what tourism does get up and running will be in a limited and restricted form (and can easily use the existing Inverness service). That said, it would probably carry fresh air most nights (at least with the FW, if tourism is reinstated you’ll get a few UK tourists each night).

I'm wondering, if given a choice of reinstating one but not both, whether the operator (West Coast Railways) of the Jacobite services had suggested that they wouldn't bother running if the FW sleeper wasn't operating?

I'm guessing the thinking was along the lines of the Aberdeen portion won't attract (m)any tourists and tourists spend money to help get ailing businesses going.

 

[BRX]

Well, if and when things get going again, it will be interesting to see how the situation with sleeper vs flights develops. How quickly can the airlines reinstate something like a normal service... And what fares will they be offering?

 

[Bald Rick]

Well, if and when things get going again, it will be interesting to see how the situation with sleeper vs flights develops. How quickly can the airlines reinstate something like a normal service... And what fares will they be offering?

The airlines are running now. You can fly from Gatwick to Edinburgh this evening for £75. Fares in July are typically £25-£50 each way with Easyjet.

Purely from observing how long it took the airlines to ramp down, I guess it would take them about 2 weeks to get back to a reasonable service for a decision to do so, and a further 2 weeks to a full service. They will only do so when official advice re travelling changes. I suspect this is likely in the next week or so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not sure what the forecast for loadings is given how uncertain everything is, but last year, in high summer, the Fort William portion loaded up to 4 sleeping cars+seats and lounge. Perhaps you will be able to manage with 3 at first this year- I am not sure how popular getting off at 5.30am in Queen Street Low Level will be for the Glasgow pax- hardly an attractive connection that‘s for sure (but serviceable if you’re an essential worker with no other option). Presumably, as there is no need for a lounge car, and only one brake coach is needed in the set, the Fort William sleepers can simply be added to the main London-Inverness section between London and Edinburgh, and have a new brake coach attached in Edinburgh, as before? So would it perhaps be load 11/12 out of Euston, brake+Inverness lounge+6 Inverness sleepers+3/4 FTW sleepers?

If they aren't running the Aberdeen, wouldn't it be easier to "keep it simple" and just run a full set with half going to Inverness and half to Fort Bill? 2 coaches don't massively add to the cost of operation, but faffing about with the shunt does.

 

[35B]

If they aren't running the Aberdeen, wouldn't it be easier to "keep it simple" and just run a full set with half going to Inverness and half to Fort Bill? 2 coaches don't massively add to the cost of operation, but faffing about with the shunt does.

What are the load limits on the WHL?

 

[InOban]

8 vehicles would be too long for WHL intermediate stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

8 vehicles would be too long for WHL intermediate stations.

It's got SDO, hasn't it? Or just lock the back few out.

Or would there be an issue with fouling points?

 

[6Z09]

WHL loops to short for 8
Dont see any need to do anything other than join up in Edinburgh though then run south as 13 or whatever?

 

[theironroad]

The Fort William portion is supposed to go via Queen Street LL, previously though you couldn't alight there.

Ah, I stand corrected and must admit I had forgotten about the "day train" arrangements in the seated coach .

 

[MrEd]

Ah, I stand corrected and must admit I had forgotten about the "day train" arrangements in the seated coach .

Under normal circumstances, yes, the seated coach does function as a day coach between Edinburgh and Fort William. Until at least 31st August, though, the seated coaches on all portions are completely out of public use, so no passengers can use the sleeper as a day train. The Glasgow QS Low Level call, which is normally only to pick up day passengers in the morning, and set them down at night, is being retained for the Fort William portion so that it can be used (for the time being) as a way of getting the sleeper to Glasgow while (for whatever reason) the Glasgow portion of the Lowlander is not running.

The Fort William portion runs from Edinburgh to Glasgow via Bathgate and Airdrie, and the North Clyde line, which is why it serves Glasgow Queen Street Low Level.

 

[MrEd]

WHL loops to short for 8
Dont see any need to do anything other than join up in Edinburgh though then run south as 13 or whatever?

This would be the easiest way of doing things for the time being- Inverness brake, lounge, six sleepers, then Fort William brake, lounge, three sleepers out of Euston, with these simply splitting and joining each night in Edinburgh.

 

[MrEd]

I'm wondering, if given a choice of reinstating one but not both, whether the operator (West Coast Railways) of the Jacobite services had suggested that they wouldn't bother running if the FW sleeper wasn't operating?

I'm guessing the thinking was along the lines of the Aberdeen portion won't attract (m)any tourists and tourists spend money to help get ailing businesses going.

That is true. The only issue is that if lockdown in Scotland continues, there won’t be a single (legal) tourist (I do hope though, for Highland businesses’ sake, that we can get to a stage where tourism businesses and hotels can reopen in some capacity by August, for those who want to travel, although what their capacity will be is another matter). But if lockdown continues then it’s tough. At least if you reinstated the Aberdeen section, you’d get the odd utility worker or offshore worker who would find it useful.

In my view, WCRC have been slightly naughty/presumptuous in taking bookings for services on the Mallaig route when there is still no guarantee that these will be allowed to run. 15th July is entirely provisional, and they will look silly if they take a load of bookings for services which they just have to cancel again (especially if they pocket customers’ money for a ‘later date’, as is all too common these days). They were still under the illusion back in April that they’d be allowed to start operating in May, and were still taking bookings for services in May (when there was not the slightest chance of these being allowed to run). As they are not a National Rail service, and are more of a tourist attraction than a public service, it would have been much more public spirited of them to wait for an official announcement from the Scottish Government, confirming that they would be allowed to run trains for the general public, before taking bookings and setting a date for reopening.

I have no axe to grind with CS here at all; CS is a public service and can, of course, be used to support essential workers/funeral attendees/other essential travel- not all CS users are tourists/non-essential by any stretch of the imagination.

CS are between a rock and a hard place here, and I think have (perhaps rightly) concluded that a Fort William section which serves Glasgow is perhaps the most useful section to reinstate this summer (if a full service cannot be reinstated). Time will tell whether this was the right decision. Nowhere can stay in lockdown forever, and they may be in a good position to catch some late-season tourist revenue with the Fort William service (and of course the Inverness) between August and October.

 

[InOban]

Given that, as a result I believe of our extended lockdown, the infection rate seems to be falling more quickly in Scotland than in Boris land, it looks increasingly likely that the 15th will happen. Certainly every tourist business is planning on that basis, and there would be ructions if it didn't happen, unless of course there is a sudden second wave.

 

[TimboM]

Will the London-Edinburgh lowlander train be sent to Polmadie after arrival at Edinburgh for day time storage, and vice versa for the Edinburgh-London run?

Yes - it'll need to go to Polmadie for cleaning / servicing during the day. Can't see the 5C11 (pm) and 5B26 (am) ECS moves being any different than they are normally (other than possibly slightly retimed).

 

[Oscar46016]

Under normal circumstances, yes, the seated coach does function as a day coach between Edinburgh and Fort William. Until at least 31st August, though, the seated coaches on all portions are completely out of public use, so no passengers can use the sleeper as a day train.

Hi, I haven't travelled up in Scotland for years ( last time it did the WHL it was 37's! ).

Can anyone board the "day coach" on either WHL or Inverness portions - or do you need a valid CS ticket ( which is only from London? ).

Thanks

 

[185143]

Hi, I haven't travelled up in Scotland for years ( last time it did the WHL it was 37's! ).

Can anyone board the "day coach" on either WHL or Inverness portions - or do you need a valid CS ticket ( which is only from London? ).

Thanks

Under normal circumstances you can board the seated coach between Edinburgh and Fort William in both directions, and between Kingussie and Inverness in the Northbound direction only. Any ticket can be used.

 

[Oscar46016]

Under normal circumstances you can board the seated coach between Edinburgh and Fort William in both directions, and between Kingussie and Inverness in the Northbound direction only. Any ticket can be used.

Thanks for that info.