Caledonian Sleeper

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen National Express that high but never Megabus. Even when Edinburgh Festival is on the most I've ever paid to Stirling was £28. I remember sitting in Victoria Coach Station watching the 8 relief coaches for the overnight Nat Exp to Edinburgh.
The maximum sleeper seated fare to Glasgow is £98 that's more than half the off peak return. I think there's quite a significant multi mode market. Going north I tend to book well in advance and fly from Gatwick. To my mind the security faff at the airport is actually less than the Central London Faff with rail. Coming back down its often what's cheapest at a couple of days notice.

It is effectively capped in that if it is higher than half the off peak return and you are doing a return journey you just buy that.

 

[JonathanH]

It is effectively capped in that if it is higher than half the off peak return and you are doing a return journey you just buy that.

Not really - some people don't take the same mode in each direction or need to travel using a peak fare. It isn't the case anymore that off peak fares are valid on all trains to Scotland.

 

[route101]

Seated sleeper is more comfortable, if you have single seat. Used to be able to get a single for around £25 one way with railcard. Downsides is the lighting compared to coach. Rather pay a bit more for comfort than an uncomfortable ride on coach.

 

[Sm5]

I also once got a bus to Paris (National Express + OuiBus) for less than the Megabus to London.

i used to regularly get flights with taxes all inc.. cheaper than the cost of getting to the airport for that flight…. Those days of budget airlines being budget, and competitive are all history now.

 

[Berliner]

i used to regularly get flights with taxes all inc.. cheaper than the cost of getting to the airport for that flight…. Those days of budget airlines being budget, and competitive are all history now.

Your last sentence makes no sense. If you look at Ryanair right now you can get from Edinburgh to Romania and Poland for less than £12 return in less than 2 weeks from now. Most of Europe appears to be within reach for under £70. Yes it may not be quite the same as the 2p fares I've paid in the past to get to various European cities, but budget airlines definitely are still budget. I don't think anyone looking to go to say, Italy, is going to think £20 return is anything but cheap.

 

[Sm5]

Your last sentence makes no sense. If you look at Ryanair right now you can get from Edinburgh to Romania and Poland for less than £12 return in less than 2 weeks from now. Most of Europe appears to be within reach for under £70. Yes it may not be quite the same as the 2p fares I've paid in the past to get to various European cities, but budget airlines definitely are still budget. I don't think anyone looking to go to say, Italy, is going to think £20 return is anything but cheap.

Ive not seen fares like that for some time, glad to see theyve made a return.
though getting to Edinburgh is a bit extreme, when living in London… when I look at Christmas i’m seeing fares closer to £400.. nowt included.

 

[InOban]

Cheap = lossmaking for the airline. Last time I checked it cost even Ryanair about £50 per passenger to fly you the average sector. There's only so much you can make from scratchcards...

 

[XAM2175]

though getting to Edinburgh is a bit extreme, when living in London… when I look at Christmas i’m seeing fares closer to £400.. nowt included.

Wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that travel was effectively banned for much of the population last Christmas, would it?

 

[najaB]

Ive not seen fares like that for some time, glad to see theyve made a return.

I'm not. I'm all for air travel being affordable, but it does nobody any good if it's too cheap.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you look at Ryanair right now you can get from Edinburgh to Romania and Poland for less than £12 return in less than 2 weeks from now.

I’d be surprised at that, because it would mean that they are selling flights for less than Air Passenger Duty.

Having just checked their website, it appears that they charge a minimum of an additional £4 for seat selection, so the cheapest flight I found was £28 return, before any charges for paying. I thought it was now illegal to advertise flight prices that did not include any inescapable costs?

 

[87015]

I’d be surprised at that, because it would mean that they are selling flights for less than Air Passenger Duty.

Having just checked their website, it appears that they charge a minimum of an additional £4 for seat selection, so the cheapest flight I found was £28 return, before any charges for paying. I thought it was now illegal to advertise flight prices that did not include any inescapable costs?

Nothing is mandatory - all can be opted out of.

 

[Berliner]

I’d be surprised at that, because it would mean that they are selling flights for less than Air Passenger Duty.

Having just checked their website, it appears that they charge a minimum of an additional £4 for seat selection, so the cheapest flight I found was £28 return, before any charges for paying. I thought it was now illegal to advertise flight prices that did not include any inescapable costs?

They often sell flights for less than APD because they make enough money to cover these costs on other routes. I have flown with them about 70 odd times and only about 40 of those times have my ticket prices exceeded the relevant taxes.

There are no mandatory fees. I just booked flights with them last night. They said the price would be £26 and it was. I didn't buy any seats, bags or priority boarding rubbish. I don't need or want it. I'm happy to sit where I am allocated and travel light. If others want those things, and I have wanted them on occasion, then it's very well advertised during the purchase that they will cost you more. Nothing is hidden, despite people liking to claim it is.

 

[Bald Rick]

Nothing is mandatory - all can be opted out of.

I must have missed now you did that for the seats.

To be fair, I’m not familiar with their booking engine as I won’t fly with them. All much nicer with easyJet!

 

[Mordac]

I must have missed now you did that for the seats.

To be fair, I’m not familiar with their booking engine as I won’t fly with them. All much nicer with easyJet!

They'll just assign you one at random. Of course even most full service airlines charge for seat selection in economy for non-elites these days.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we get back to discussing the Caledonian Sleeper please.

Thanks

 

[kentrailman]

Can we get back to discussing the Caledonian Sleeper please.

Thanks

Yes we can !

I have just taken my first journey on the Caledonian sleeper so thought I would post a trip report.

Outward from Euston in a club room. Had chosen room 5 given the comments about being in the middle for best ride.

Had a text earlier in the day to say that due to staff shortages the club car would be closed but that room service breakfast menu ( e.g. bacon rolls ) still being served.

Train started boarding at advertised time of 1030pm. On arrival at platform told that there was no water in our booked room so would be moved to room three on a different coach.

Having previously used Mk 3 sleepers, once the train got going I was shocked by the noise and ride quality. Really terrible ride quality.. Shaking bouncing banging .. Think island line ( pre upgrade ) style ride. Very very load track noise, thumps bangs etc. Also pretty sure the wheel had a flat on it as constant background ' bang bang bang' noise 2 times a second.

I never knew the WCML had so many points and crossings. In short, got about 30 minutes sleep the whole trip. Awful. Arrive refreshed no way .. Arrive shattered more like. For the first time ever on a train ( or on anything except a ship in a severe storm) I felt nauseous during the journey because of the poor ride quality.

I think much of the noise seemed to be being transmitted from the fire escape type mechanism under the windows .. There seemed to be an opening to the outside there somewhere in a similar way to the opening you used to see in the toilet bowls of European trains .. The sound just came straight in through it.

Trip back from Edinburgh booked in the very expensive double room ( 5 ) which was much better. Noise levels much more acceptable, ride quality much better. Got some sleep ! Perhaps I had just been unlucky the first time. Could hear the disabled toilet talking to itself though ' please lock the door' type messages filtering in from corridor door.

The return trip was marred by other aspects though. Every food outlet on Edinburgh station was closed except Marks and Spencers. Even the McDonald's was closed. The only option seemed to be a pasty but the pasty stall closed as we walked up to it. LNER lounge closed 'for refurbishment' . Train boarded 30 minutes later than advertised and from what the guy on the barrier said, this was the 'Normal' boarding time

Wife has said she will never go on the sleeper again. I would have booked Fort William trip to have had longer on board as actually hired a car and drove to fort William anyway, but reading posts here put me off as couldn't risk being turfed out onto a bus at 4am somewhere, especially a potentially covid filled bus as am not as young as I was.

Conclusion .. Yes, some people are willing to pay £400 for a train ride ( I did !) advertised as a luxury experience. Had it been the advertised experience I might even have paid and travelled again. In theory it could deliver. In practice, it doesn't. Am afraid they have lost a customer. Are there any old Mk 3 sleeper carriages they can refurbish ?!!

Staff by the way seemed friendly enough.

 

[6Z09]

The advertised experience will, I am sure , be delivered soon.
Latest jobs advert for Caledonian Sleeper include a Graphic Designer and An Events and Partnerships Executive!
Certain these vital posts will make a difference!
I'm sure the Aberdeen portion will now run reliably, fully crewed lounge, as well as food packing the shelves and ovens.

 

[92002]

Yes we can !

I have just taken my first journey on the Caledonian sleeper so thought I would post a trip report.

Outward from Euston in a club room. Had chosen room 5 given the comments about being in the middle for best ride.

Had a text earlier in the day to say that due to staff shortages the club car would be closed but that room service breakfast menu ( e.g. bacon rolls ) still being served.

Train started boarding at advertised time of 1030pm. On arrival at platform told that there was no water in our booked room so would be moved to room three on a different coach.

Having previously used Mk 3 sleepers, once the train got going I was shocked by the noise and ride quality. Really terrible ride quality.. Shaking bouncing banging .. Think island line ( pre upgrade ) style ride. Very very load track noise, thumps bangs etc. Also pretty sure the wheel had a flat on it as constant background ' bang bang bang' noise 2 times a second.

I never knew the WCML had so many points and crossings. In short, got about 30 minutes sleep the whole trip. Awful. Arrive refreshed no way .. Arrive shattered more like. For the first time ever on a train ( or on anything except a ship in a severe storm) I felt nauseous during the journey because of the poor ride quality.

I think much of the noise seemed to be being transmitted from the fire escape type mechanism under the windows .. There seemed to be an opening to the outside there somewhere in a similar way to the opening you used to see in the toilet bowls of European trains .. The sound just came straight in through it.

Trip back from Edinburgh booked in the very expensive double room ( 5 ) which was much better. Noise levels much more acceptable, ride quality much better. Got some sleep ! Perhaps I had just been unlucky the first time.

The return trip was marred by other aspects though. Every food outlet on Edinburgh station was closed except Marks and Spencers. Even the McDonald's was closed. The only option seemed to be a pasty but the pasty stall closed as we walked up to it. LNER lounge closed 'for refurbishment' . Train boarded 30 minutes later than advertised and from what the guy on the barrier said, this was the 'Normal' boarding time

Wife has said she will never go on the sleeper again. I would have booked Fort William trip to have had longer on board as actually hired a car and drove to fort William anyway, but reading posts here put me off as couldn't risk being turfed out onto a bus at 4am somewhere, especially a potentially covid filled bus as am not as young as I was.

Conclusion .. Yes, some people are willing to pay £400 for a train ride ( I did !) advertised as a luxury experience. Had it been the advertised experience I might even have paid and travelled again. In theory it could deliver. In practice, it doesn't. Am afraid they have lost a customer. Are there any old Mk 3 sleeper carriages they can refurbish ?!!

Staff by the way seemed friendly enough.

There is a Sainsbury outlet in Princes Street Mall. Halfway up the escalators to Princes Street. It closes at 2200. Although if the sleeper catering is nil no doubt there would be a run on food.

The poor running seems to be a CAF bogie thing. The Mk5 daytime and Nova trains are also poor. Although the 195s diesel units seem fine. Maybe its a maintenance depot issue.

 

[kentrailman]

There is a Sainsbury outlet in Princes Street Mall. Halfway up the escalators to Princes Street. It closes at 2200

Nope, that was closed as well.
Nearest food was McDonald's in city centre across Princess st, it was rammed full of nightlife types and had two security bouncers on the door. We were hungry so I was delegated to risk covid amongst the packed crowds and get something from there whilst wife stood outside waiting with cases whilst a fight broke out nearby ! .. Having trucked our cases up and down the escalators from the station. Well up anyway, down escalator not working so had to carry them down ..
Luckily some of the platforms were barrier less so found some seats on a platform to eat in relative peace.


Not exactly the luxury lounge type advertised experience though to be honest probably would have avoided lounge anyway even if it had been open, due to covid .. And nooo, please don't turn this into a covid thread, there's another forum for that !

 

[92002]

Nope, that was closed as well.
Nearest food was McDonald's in city centre across Princess st, it was rammed full of nightlife types and had two security bouncers on the door. We were hungry so I was delegated to risk covid amongst the packed crowds and get something from there whilst wife stood outside waiting with cases whilst a fight broke out nearby ! .. Having trucked our cases up and down the escalators from the station. Well up anyway, down escalator not working so had to carry them down ..
Luckily some of the platforms were barrier less so found some seats on a platform to eat in relative peace.
Not exactly the luxury lounge type advertised experience . ( though to be honest probably would have avoided lounge anyway due to covid .. And nooo, please don't turn this into a covid thread, there's another forum for that !)

Sadly in the later night there is limited food available. Although the Omni centre at the top of Leith Walk have quite a few. Like a Cosmos World Buffet, Wetherspoons and pizza and pasta places. If you know your way around from the exits at Platform 2 that's closer. No escalators but lifts there. It's a bit of a hill to get to Leith walk though. Not impossible if the luggage is on wheels.

 

[kentrailman]

The advertised experience will, I am sure , be delivered soon.
Latest jobs advert for Caledonian Sleeper include a Graphic Designer and An Events and Partnerships Executive!

Maybe the new designer will redesign the livery so it doesn't block off the view from some of the windows !

 

[kylemore]

Yes we can !

I have just taken my first journey on the Caledonian sleeper so thought I would post a trip report.

Outward from Euston in a club room. Had chosen room 5 given the comments about being in the middle for best ride.

Had a text earlier in the day to say that due to staff shortages the club car would be closed but that room service breakfast menu ( e.g. bacon rolls ) still being served.

Train started boarding at advertised time of 1030pm. On arrival at platform told that there was no water in our booked room so would be moved to room three on a different coach.

Having previously used Mk 3 sleepers, once the train got going I was shocked by the noise and ride quality. Really terrible ride quality.. Shaking bouncing banging .. Think island line ( pre upgrade ) style ride. Very very load track noise, thumps bangs etc. Also pretty sure the wheel had a flat on it as constant background ' bang bang bang' noise 2 times a second.

I never knew the WCML had so many points and crossings. In short, got about 30 minutes sleep the whole trip. Awful. Arrive refreshed no way .. Arrive shattered more like. For the first time ever on a train ( or on anything except a ship in a severe storm) I felt nauseous during the journey because of the poor ride quality.

I think much of the noise seemed to be being transmitted from the fire escape type mechanism under the windows .. There seemed to be an opening to the outside there somewhere in a similar way to the opening you used to see in the toilet bowls of European trains .. The sound just came straight in through it.

Trip back from Edinburgh booked in the very expensive double room ( 5 ) which was much better. Noise levels much more acceptable, ride quality much better. Got some sleep ! Perhaps I had just been unlucky the first time. Could hear the disabled toilet talking to itself though ' please lock the door' type messages filtering in from corridor door.

The return trip was marred by other aspects though. Every food outlet on Edinburgh station was closed except Marks and Spencers. Even the McDonald's was closed. The only option seemed to be a pasty but the pasty stall closed as we walked up to it. LNER lounge closed 'for refurbishment' . Train boarded 30 minutes later than advertised and from what the guy on the barrier said, this was the 'Normal' boarding time

Wife has said she will never go on the sleeper again. I would have booked Fort William trip to have had longer on board as actually hired a car and drove to fort William anyway, but reading posts here put me off as couldn't risk being turfed out onto a bus at 4am somewhere, especially a potentially covid filled bus as am not as young as I was.

Conclusion .. Yes, some people are willing to pay £400 for a train ride ( I did !) advertised as a luxury experience. Had it been the advertised experience I might even have paid and travelled again. In theory it could deliver. In practice, it doesn't. Am afraid they have lost a customer. Are there any old Mk 3 sleeper carriages they can refurbish ?!!

Staff by the way seemed friendly enough.

Well if the prices were not enough to put you off that would!

Is there any point to the thing other than Serco screwing money out of the taxpayer?

It's a shame for the frontline staff who by most accounts are doing a good job under difficult circumstances.

Maybe we should hand it over to OBB to see if they can make a success of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The return trip was marred by other aspects though. Every food outlet on Edinburgh station was closed except Marks and Spencers. Even the McDonald's was closed.

There's a late-opening Maccys (was 24hr, but I'm not sure it is now as it's had big antisocial behaviour issues) pretty much directly opposite the Princes St entrance to Waverley, for future reference.

Edit: open 5am-3am according to Google Maps, I guess 2 hours of closure to clean the sick up before breakfast/stop homeless people bedding down there.

Edit edit: ah, someone refers to it above already, sorry.

 

[TimboM]

Well if the prices were not enough to put you off that would!

Is there any point to the thing other than Serco screwing money out of the taxpayer?

It's a shame for the frontline staff who by most accounts are doing a good job under difficult circumstances.

Maybe we should hand it over to OBB to see if they can make a success of it.

Serco have lost tens of millions operating the Caledonian Sleeper (and will do over the course of the franchise whatever happens down the line) - but please don't let facts get in the way of your rant.

The only people who benefit financially are the passengers who actually pay less than half of what it costs for them to be on the train - the rest is covered by government subsidies and (prior to Covid) Serco's losses.

Sleeper trains are inherently very expensive to run as require a lot of assets and crew over long distances with comparatively low passenger numbers (when compared to something like a Pendolino).

 

[John Bishop]

Serco have lost tens of millions operating the Caledonian Sleeper (and will do over the course of the franchise whatever happens down the line) - but please don't let facts get in the way of your rant.

The only people who benefit financially are the passengers who actually pay less than half of what it costs for them to be on the train - the rest is covered by government subsidies and (prior to Covid) Serco's losses.

Sleeper trains are inherently very expensive to run as require a lot of assets and crew over long distances with comparatively low passenger numbers (when compared to something like a Pendolino).

Maybe it’s time to wrap the whole thing up in that case. Government money is tight and only going to get tighter. Can they justify that money on a tourist hotel on wheels?

 

[najaB]

Government money is tight and only going to get tighter. Can they justify that money on a tourist hotel on wheels?

Possibly. It all depends on if the net economic impact is positive or not. i.e. Are their people making journeys to Scotland that they would not have if the Sleeper wasn't available, and how much is their spend?

 

[kentrailman]

Possibly. It all depends on if the net economic impact is positive or not. i.e. Are their people making journeys to Scotland that they would not have if the Sleeper wasn't available, and how much is their spend?

Yes, I thought that was the idea .. It being subsidised to support Scotland and the Highlands.

I for one spent quite a bit in Scotland on my recent trip and would not have chosen to go there at this time had it not been for the sleeper.

( Having said that, not just Scotland.. I also contributed a ridiculous amount to whoever runs Ebbsfleet station car park ... )

 

[TimboM]

Possibly. It all depends on if the net economic impact is positive or not. i.e. Are their people making journeys to Scotland that they would not have if the Sleeper wasn't available, and how much is their spend?

I suspect it's considered by the respective Treasuries as being a net positive to justify the funding.

Also need to factor in the franchise and long-term contracts with suppliers like GBRf and Alstom, which would require significant sums to cancel, and the cost of the long-term financing of the Mk5 stock (which can't really be deployed elsewhere).

Pretty sure it won't be going anywhere (until 2030 at least).

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there any point to the thing other than Serco screwing money out of the taxpayer?

It’s been the taxpayer screwing money out of Serco (at a terrific rate).

 

[6Z09]

It’s been the taxpayer screwing money out of Serco (at a terrific rate).

Really?
Transport Scotland have financed the Operation for the past 18 months have they not?
Serco are well funded by the taxpayer in various government contracts, ranging from failing Track and Trace to tagging prisoners that didn't exist!