Caledonian Sleeper

[jfollows]

Train Operating Companies in general are being very poor at keeping their websites updated and checked for accuracy. Presumably it's that lack of attention that's also resulting in the National Rail website being out of date in places.

Yes, despite their numerous early mistakes, it seems that Avanti West Coast has been the exception here - they've been publishing detailed timetables over recent weeks. The Caledonian Sleeper information is woeful in comparison, it's as if they deliberately don't want people to use their services.

 

[route101]

Scotrail have been the same , they dont publish a timetable. They did until the first increase of service.

 

[jfollows]

I apologise if people think that I'm going on a bit, but I'm amazed that the only job the people who work at CS have is to run their sleeper trains, but they aren't bothered enough to think to tell people when their trains are running! So they appear to me simply not to care about doing their jobs. Is that because they've been effectively nationalised now, so it no longer matters to them whether or not they run a good service or make any money?

As previously mentioned, the same wrong information is directly linked from other places like National Rail Enquiries.

I know we're all living through difficult times, but ...?

 

[92002]

I apologise if people think that I'm going on a bit, but I'm amazed that the only job the people who work at CS have is to run their sleeper trains, but they aren't bothered enough to think to tell people when their trains are running! So they appear to me simply not to care about doing their jobs. Is that because they've been effectively nationalised now, so it no longer matters to them whether or not they run a good service or make any money?

As previously mentioned, the same wrong information is directly linked from other places like National Rail Enquiries.

I know we're all living through difficult times, but ...?

They expect passengers to read updates on the website and book there. Very few real people are currently working.
Currently no Aberdeen or Glasgow services, whilst Fort William gets a larger number of vehicles. No doubt to match current bookings.

Not really any different to other TOCs for now. Nobody is currently lead by the hand.

 

[MrEd]

Scotland reopened for tourists this weekend. So essential travel is no longer necessary.

Essential travel will always be necessary, otherwise it’s not essential! Essential travellers use the sleeper every single night, as they have done since its inception. There will continue to be many people who require the sleeper for essential work commitments, medical reasons, funerals etc, regardless of whether there are tourists on board or not.

This is why I am slightly puzzled by the decision to remove the Glasgow Central portion of the Lowlander, and not to reinstate the Aberdeen until September. I would have concentrated for the moment on the portions which are useful to essential travellers/workers, and left the Fort William until last to reinstate (if, for whatever reason, it was impossible at this point to reinstate a full service), as Fort William is the least useful to essential workers. That way, CS ensure the goodwill of essential travellers who will use them come what may, and fulfil their social function.

I don’t think it’s a good idea in this current climate to prioritise tourist traffic, especially when we are being asked to avoid using public transport for leisure travel.

 

[MrEd]

They expect passengers to read updates on the website and book there. Very few real people are currently working.

What about our NHS, which employs millions, and our key workers in healthcare, social work, care, transportation, logistics, utilities, the legal profession, funeral directors, engineering, construction, scientific research etc etc? Or are these not ’real people’? Many people are in fact working harder than ever at present, and still need to travel to keep the country functioning! The country has not shut down, it’s just non essential travel was restricted until recently.

 

[92002]

Essential travel will always be necessary, otherwise it’s not essential! Essential travellers use the sleeper every single night, as they have done since its inception. There will continue to be many people who require the sleeper for essential work commitments, medical reasons, funerals etc, regardless of whether there are tourists on board or not.

This is why I am slightly puzzled by the decision to remove the Glasgow Central portion of the Lowlander, and not to reinstate the Aberdeen until September. I would have concentrated for the moment on the portions which are useful to essential travellers/workers, and left the Fort William until last to reinstate (if, for whatever reason, it was impossible at this point to reinstate a full service), as Fort William is the least useful to essential workers. That way, CS ensure the goodwill of essential travellers who will use them come what may, and fulfil their social function.

I don’t think it’s a good idea in this current climate to prioritise tourist traffic, especially when we are being asked to avoid using public transport for leisure travel.

Essential travel has now been lifted so passengers can get a holiday. From this weekend the tourists are now welcome to Scotland. Updates are slow to reflect the actuality. Since both Scotland and England have different outlooks. As well as different governments looking after things.

 

[6Z09]

Dissapointed to learn that I'm not a "real person" having worked throughout lockdown.

 

[CW2]

<snip>
This is why I am slightly puzzled by the decision to remove the Glasgow Central portion of the Lowlander, and not to reinstate the Aberdeen until September. I would have concentrated for the moment on the portions which are useful to essential travellers/workers, and left the Fort William until last to reinstate (if, for whatever reason, it was impossible at this point to reinstate a full service), as Fort William is the least useful to essential workers. That way, CS ensure the goodwill of essential travellers who will use them come what may, and fulfil their social function.

I don’t think it’s a good idea in this current climate to prioritise tourist traffic, especially when we are being asked to avoid using public transport for leisure travel.

The West Highland region does depend quite heavily on tourist income, and the sleeper is the only through service to London by any operator. There are plenty of daytime alternatives to Glasgow and Aberdeen.

 

[92002]

Dissapointed to learn that I'm not a "real person" having worked throughout lockdown.

Disappointed or not Scotland gets a daily update from their First Minister. With essential workers getting thanks. These have now stopped in England.

 

[MrEd]

Essential travel has now been lifted so passengers can get a holiday. From this weekend the tourists are now welcome to Scotland. Updates are slow to reflect the actuality. Since both Scotland and England have different outlooks. As well as different governments looking after things.

No one is saying that tourists are not welcome. What people might be worried about, though, is the almost unhealthy desire to prioritise tourists over essential travellers on a service which is subsidised (ostensibly for social reasons) using public money. By the same logic used earlier in this thread, tourists can still get to Fort William from Inverness (by bus) or Glasgow (by connecting train) if they want. But what about that person with the crucial 9am appointment or the 10am funeral in Glasgow (or even Aberdeen), who is inconvenienced to make way for tourists (who by definition have no prescriptive schedules to observe)? They might use a day train and hotel this time, but their goodwill towards CS is gone.

Of course, there’s an obvious solution which CS could adopt: reinstate a full service.

 

[MrEd]

The West Highland region does depend quite heavily on tourist income, and the sleeper is the only through service to London by any operator. There are plenty of daytime alternatives to Glasgow and Aberdeen.

If I were a politician right now, my view would be this: businesses and industries can be rebuilt. Lives cannot. Put essential workers and healthcare first. Of course, the Fort William portion might be instrumental in ensuring that key workers could reach that area, and for this communities would be eternally grateful. But the tourist industry should not be seen as a priority by the Scottish Government at the moment. Yes let tourists come back, but don’t prioritise them. Most people in the West Highlands are probably more worried about whether they’ll see their elderly relatives alive this Christmas than some lost tourist revenue.

 

[CW2]

If I were a politician right now, my view would be this: businesses and industries can be rebuilt. Lives cannot. Put essential workers and healthcare first. Of course, the Fort William portion might be instrumental in ensuring that key workers could reach that area, and for this communities would be eternally grateful. But the tourist industry should not be seen as a priority by the Scottish Government at the moment. Yes let tourists come back, but don’t prioritise them. Most people in the West Highlands are probably more worried about whether they’ll see their elderly relatives alive this Christmas than some lost tourist revenue.

The Fort William portion does run primarily for tourists. The number of locals making long-distance journeys is relatively small. If there is any evidence of key workers being unable to get on the Fort William sleepers, then I stand corrected - but from what I've seen the main reason for reinstating the through coaches was for the summer toyurist seson - on which revenue a lot of the West Highlands depends. The tourist industry is essential to the West Highlands, and the Scottish Government and Caledonian Sleepers have realised this and acted accordingly. The message on non-essential travel has changed, tourists are free to travel by train.

 

[godfreycomplex]

They expect passengers to read updates on the website and book there. Very few real people are currently working.

I have been working all the way through lockdown without let up. Although I am imaginary, to be fair. Wooooooooo.....

 

[Steddenm]

Does anybody know if CS are still providing free travel for NHS keyworkers?

 

[Lloyds siding]

Dissapointed to learn that I'm not a "real person" having worked throughout lockdown.

I'm thrilled to find that I AM a 'real person'. I normally work short term contracts, a group of people forgotten or ignored by the current 'arrangements'. I haven't worked since February, including the annual contracts that I've worked for the last 30 years...but not this year! Congratulations on still having a job ( and I do appreciate those providing services to the rest of us, and I think you're a REAL person).

 

[30907]

The Fort William portion does run primarily for tourists. The number of locals making long-distance journeys is relatively small. If there is any evidence of key workers being unable to get on the Fort William sleepers, then I stand corrected - but from what I've seen the main reason for reinstating the through coaches was for the summer toyurist seson - on which revenue a lot of the West Highlands depends. The tourist industry is essential to the West Highlands, and the Scottish Government and Caledonian Sleepers have realised this and acted accordingly. The message on non-essential travel has changed, tourists are free to travel by train.

If I were a politician right now, my view would be this: businesses and industries can be rebuilt. Lives cannot. Put essential workers and healthcare first. Of course, the Fort William portion might be instrumental in ensuring that key workers could reach that area, and for this communities would be eternally grateful. But the tourist industry should not be seen as a priority by the Scottish Government at the moment. Yes let tourists come back, but don’t prioritise them. Most people in the West Highlands are probably more worried about whether they’ll see their elderly relatives alive this Christmas than some lost tourist revenue.

Nevertheless, and in line with many posters on these forums, the two governments have lifted the "essential travel only" advice. I would expect CS to prioritise conveying (in safety) the greatest number of potential customers. As Aberdeen and Glasgow are consistently quieter in the summer holiday period, while Fort William and Edinburgh are busier, if economies are to be made (and as a taxpayer I approve) the choice is correct.

 

[6Z09]

Glasgow is still served by the Fort William train, calling at Queen Street low level in both directions.

 

[92002]

Glasgow is still served by the Fort William train, calling at Queen Street low level in both directions.

Yes at 0554 arrival. Think I would chose Edinburgh instead. With many trains from there to Glasgow.

 

[route101]

Glasgow is still served by the Fort William train, calling at Queen Street low level in both directions.

Didnt realise the Glasgow portion was stopped, seen it in Central other week.

 

[92002]

Didnt realise the Glasgow portion was stopped, seen it in Central other week.

The Lowlander sometimes has ECS on it for maintenance at Polmadie. But no staff or passengers.

 

[43 302]

The Lowlander sometimes has ECS on it for maintenance at Polmadie. But no staff or passengers.

Worth noting that it was of course running in passenger service recently. I myself took it from Glasgow Central to Euston via Edinburgh last week.

 

[6Z09]

Yes at 0554 arrival. Think I would chose Edinburgh instead. With many trains from there to Glasgow.

Scotrail are still running a "Covid " timetable ,morning is ok but late evening very sparse if you are making your way to Edinburgh from Central belt.

 

[92002]

Scotrail are still running a "Covid " timetable ,morning is ok but late evening very sparse if you are making your way to Edinburgh from Central belt.

Although the Southbound Fort William portion leaves Queen Street low level at 0022.

 

[jagardner1984]

The cynical part of me wonders if:

A. Serco have an interest in numbers staying low and thus having the “COVID ruined our business, we will need to stay on full public subsidy until .... (longer)”

B. If there is a long term downturn in travel, the revised operating model (perhaps with some slight retiming to make the time slot at GLQ a touch more attractive) would presumably simplify operations and reduce costs (coupling at GLC and Carstairs for example) significantly. Personally as a Glasgow user I would like to see Central reinstated, but given the scale of cuts to the public finances on the way, I wonder if complimentary onward travel to Glasgow / Aberdeen might be an interim solution.

Full credit to the team at CS though. I know a couple of friends who’ve needed to travel in recent months and have commented on the service received and the kindness of the staff. As the world grows increasingly wary air travel, we become more faceless, contactless, sanitised, the simple act of greeting someone, having a chat with them and asking about their day feels more essential than ever.

 

[6Z09]

Didnt realise the Glasgow portion was stopped, seen it in Central other week.

Change took place on 15JUL20.
Although the Caledonian Sleeper website doesn't seem to have realised that yet!

 

[Peter Sarf]

Train Operating Companies in general are being very poor at keeping their websites updated and checked for accuracy. Presumably it's that lack of attention that's also resulting in the National Rail website being out of date in places.

The Highlander Fort William portion is operating, as it does say on that linked COVID-19 page, but they just haven't updated the timetable page.

Not just rail - I have noticed this problem from time to time with other non-rail websites. The people in charge want to have a website but don't seem to realise that it is therefore a priority to keep it up to date. It is easier to keep a website up to date than pay for leaflets, adverts or timetables.

Essential travel will always be necessary, otherwise it’s not essential! Essential travellers use the sleeper every single night, as they have done since its inception. There will continue to be many people who require the sleeper for essential work commitments, medical reasons, funerals etc, regardless of whether there are tourists on board or not.

This is why I am slightly puzzled by the decision to remove the Glasgow Central portion of the Lowlander, and not to reinstate the Aberdeen until September. I would have concentrated for the moment on the portions which are useful to essential travellers/workers, and left the Fort William until last to reinstate (if, for whatever reason, it was impossible at this point to reinstate a full service), as Fort William is the least useful to essential workers. That way, CS ensure the goodwill of essential travellers who will use them come what may, and fulfil their social function.

I don’t think it’s a good idea in this current climate to prioritise tourist traffic, especially when we are being asked to avoid using public transport for leisure travel.

Rightly or wrongly it is going to be for the same reason that the pubs are now open. Time to breath some life into all these non-essential jobs before the economy collapses I am afraid. More optimistically it is because we have not managed to trigger a second wave -yet !. My biggest fear is how practical social distancing is on public transport. And personally I have no desire to go on holiday until it is really safe to do so especially as I am so busy at work (making parts for PPE).

Essential travel has now been lifted so passengers can get a holiday. From this weekend the tourists are now welcome to Scotland. Updates are slow to reflect the actuality. Since both Scotland and England have different outlooks. As well as different governments looking after things.

I realise you mean THE RESTRICTION ON essential travel has been lifted - maybe not clear to some others.

Dissapointed to learn that I'm not a "real person" having worked throughout lockdown.

Yes indeed. I too have worked throughout except for about 10 days self isolating. I am pretty exhausted and kind of find it all a bit unreal since I have been too busy to encounter many restrictions.

No one is saying that tourists are not welcome. What people might be worried about, though, is the almost unhealthy desire to prioritise tourists over essential travellers on a service which is subsidised (ostensibly for social reasons) using public money. By the same logic used earlier in this thread, tourists can still get to Fort William from Inverness (by bus) or Glasgow (by connecting train) if they want. But what about that person with the crucial 9am appointment or the 10am funeral in Glasgow (or even Aberdeen), who is inconvenienced to make way for tourists (who by definition have no prescriptive schedules to observe)? They might use a day train and hotel this time, but their goodwill towards CS is gone.

Of course, there’s an obvious solution which CS could adopt: reinstate a full service.

It may well be that CS do not have the full staff resources available for more services. There will be a number of their staff who wish to stay at home to shield older relatives or themselves. That has been the case at my workplace - two that I know of protecting unborn babies.

I think, whilst essential workers have been the priority there is now another competing priority. We need to get the economy back on its feet otherwise there will be no economy to pay for the essential workers. Otherwise we essential workers will have to start subsidising all the unemployed with higher taxes. I just hope that COVID-19 has reached its peak and will let us get back to normality sometime not too distant.

 

[TimboM]

The cynical part of me wonders if:

A. Serco have an interest in numbers staying low and thus having the “COVID ruined our business, we will need to stay on full public subsidy until .... (longer)”

B. If there is a long term downturn in travel, the revised operating model (perhaps with some slight retiming to make the time slot at GLQ a touch more attractive) would presumably simplify operations and reduce costs (coupling at GLC and Carstairs for example) significantly. Personally as a Glasgow user I would like to see Central reinstated, but given the scale of cuts to the public finances on the way, I wonder if complimentary onward travel to Glasgow / Aberdeen might be an interim solution.

Full credit to the team at CS though. I know a couple of friends who’ve needed to travel in recent months and have commented on the service received and the kindness of the staff. As the world grows increasingly wary air travel, we become more faceless, contactless, sanitised, the simple act of greeting someone, having a chat with them and asking about their day feels more essential than ever.

The Emergency Measures Agreement is for a fixed period (six months from memory) - there's no incentive for Serco to keep the numbers low. When the EMA is over it's over.

The current franchise agreement requires all services to run - once the EMA is finished, that franchise is still in force, it doesn't just disappear because Serco feel like it.

The franchise is also in a period now where (outside of the EMA) Transport Scotland (TS) pick up the tab for 50% of operational losses, and from April 2022 would have to ensure Serco make a small operating profit, if not allow them to exit the franchise. In other words, when the EMA ends, Serco will have <18 months until they're in a similar scenario where TS are fully funding the operation again (or if not they can walk away).

As mentioned above, the Sleeper is probably the best form of public transport for social distancing (a great alternative to cramped air travel) and passenger numbers have increased significantly in recent weeks to the extent some services have been full. So if Serco are trying to keep numbers low they and their kind staff are doing a bad job of it.

 

[jfollows]

CS replied to me: "Please accept my apologies that the website has not bee (sic) updated with the Fort William timetable, I have passed this over to the relevant departments to add this."

The timetable page at https://www.sleeper.scot/timetable/covid-19-timetable-updates/ now reflects the existence of the Fort William service, and other recent changes.

 

[paul1609]

Essential travel will always be necessary, otherwise it’s not essential! Essential travellers use the sleeper every single night, as they have done since its inception. There will continue to be many people who require the sleeper for essential work commitments, medical reasons, funerals etc, regardless of whether there are tourists on board or not.

This is why I am slightly puzzled by the decision to remove the Glasgow Central portion of the Lowlander, and not to reinstate the Aberdeen until September. I would have concentrated for the moment on the portions which are useful to essential travellers/workers, and left the Fort William until last to reinstate (if, for whatever reason, it was impossible at this point to reinstate a full service), as Fort William is the least useful to essential workers. That way, CS ensure the goodwill of essential travellers who will use them come what may, and fulfil their social function.

I don’t think it’s a good idea in this current climate to prioritise tourist traffic, especially when we are being asked to avoid using public transport for leisure travel.

Having been a regular user of the sleeper up until 2019, I would estimate that tourists represent 85% plus of CS business without it there would not be a Scottish sleeper service at all. The lowlander has a Business flow up on Sunday night, down on Thurs and Friday nights the rest of the week is primarily tourist.