Caledonian Sleeper

[gingerheid]

Indeed. RMT need to pick their battles carefully. If I were Serco, I’d be (secretly) happy to give up the sleeper - it’s been nothing but trouble for them. With forthcoming squeezes on public expenditure, and some tough decisions for Governments to make in the next 12 months, this would be an opportunity for Scotland to pull the plug, blame Serco (English) and the Sassenach U.K. government, and be away with £30m a year saved to spend on electrification or dare I say more effective ways to boost the tourism economy.

Quite. The sleeper might be politically popular now, but one with a damaged reputation might find it harder to be politically popular in a poorer country, especially while the the HS2 that may make the Lowlander even less viable is actually under construction. My fear is that we could lose the Lowlander as soon as the Night Riviera could use a new set of coaches; could be too good an opportunity to miss for someone that wanted to.

 

[peteb]

They aren’t in the present time, as there’s no lounge car for anyone to buy anything in and no catering service at all apart from a free breakfast snack pack. On the rare occasion that anyone buys a walk-up ticket (strongly discouraged in present circumstances) they only accept card.

Lots of people (myself included) always travelled on the sleeper with cash when the lounge cars were operational, even in late 2019/2020, as the card machines were not reliable and often declined perfectly valid cards (generally Visa Debit cards not authorised for offline transactions, as you’d have with a basic account). I would say around 65% of passengers paid their bill in the lounge with cash, even in January this year. It was always advisable to have cash (just as it was on a paytrain route). Whether folk will go back to cash when lounge cars reopen and the Covid restrictions end remains to be seen.

As someone who stays away regularly in pubs with rooms, and the CS is essentially a mobile version of that at present, (or was before Covid precautionary measures), why not simply do what they do in most pubs? Take payment by card for the room, and add on bar tab, meals etc to final total. No need for cash. The electric room key is swiped to record food or drink purchased, card is debited automatically once train reaches destination where a good internet signal available. People might be a little more reticent and consider their behaviour if they know it's all monitored by the card swipe system. Paying by cash assists anonymity but may also encourage rowdy behaviour.

Clearly we need an open access operator to propose a non stop bothy operation between London and Crianlarich, stock could comprise ex MK 3 sleeper coaches with extra bunks installed powered by 4 ex HST power cars. Seats would be replaced by sleeping on the floor in the ex cabins or toilets. Rail Enthusiast accommodation would be provided hanging out the windows of the HST power cars. The bar open 24/7 would only be available to those in hillwalker accommodation. Rail Enthusiast catering would be provided by a tesco value meal delivered at Euston.

On serious note why not have couchettes in the UK like they do on the continent. Much more practical and affordable for families and small groups, perhaps 4 berth compartments would better suit the UK loading guage? I would imagine the CS would do a roaring trade amongst the "prefer to take the train brigade" and the addition of say two 8 compartment couchettes to a train would allow an extra 64 people to travel. Far more practical as a means of holiday transport to the highlands than the present "luxury" service which could of course continue in the same train.....?

As someone who stays away regularly in pubs with rooms, and the CS is essentially a mobile version of that at present, (or was before Covid precautionary measures), why not simply do what they do in most pubs? Take payment by card for the room, and add on bar tab, meals etc to final total. No need for cash. The electric room key is swiped to record food or drink purchased, card is debited automatically once train reaches destination where a good internet signal available. People might be a little more reticent and consider their behaviour if they know it's all monitored by the card swipe system. Paying by cash assists anonymity but may also encourage rowdy behaviour.


On serious note why not have couchettes in the UK like they do on the continent. Much more practical and affordable for families and small groups, perhaps 4 berth compartments would better suit the UK loading guage? I would imagine the CS would do a roaring trade amongst the "prefer to take the train brigade" and the addition of say two 8 compartment couchettes to a train would allow an extra 64 people to travel. Far more practical as a means of holiday transport to the highlands than the present "luxury" service which could of course continue in the same train.....?

Or do gradients and loco power limit the length of train on the west highland line?

 

[RT4038]

As someone who stays away regularly in pubs with rooms, and the CS is essentially a mobile version of that at present, (or was before Covid precautionary measures), why not simply do what they do in most pubs? Take payment by card for the room, and add on bar tab, meals etc to final total. No need for cash. The electric room key is swiped to record food or drink purchased, card is debited automatically once train reaches destination where a good internet signal available. People might be a little more reticent and consider their behaviour if they know it's all monitored by the card swipe system. Paying by cash assists anonymity but may also encourage rowdy behaviour.


On serious note why not have couchettes in the UK like they do on the continent. Much more practical and affordable for families and small groups, perhaps 4 berth compartments would better suit the UK loading guage? I would imagine the CS would do a roaring trade amongst the "prefer to take the train brigade" and the addition of say two 8 compartment couchettes to a train would allow an extra 64 people to travel. Far more practical as a means of holiday transport to the highlands than the present "luxury" service which could of course continue in the same train.....?


Or do gradients and loco power limit the length of train on the west highland line?

But a 4 berth couchette would take up only a little less than the space of 2 x two berth compartments. You would proably get one extra couchette compartment in a whole carriage of couchettes.
So where would this 'roaring trade' would come from, of families and small groups, prepared to pay £700 each way for a Couchette Compartment? Every night, throughout the year. I don't think so.

Neither Lowland or Highland Sleeper can convey any more carriages than it does now, so these Couchette carriages would have to be instead of a carriage with Sleeper Cabins. We have already determined that passengers don't like sharing with strangers, so on the many nights that families and small groups don't travel, there would be a lot of empty carriages being moved around the country. Far more practicable for this market to go by day train and stay in a hotel.

 

[peteb]

But a 4 berth couchette would take up only a little less than the space of 2 x two berth compartments. You would proably get one extra couchette compartment in a whole carriage of couchettes.
So where would this 'roaring trade' would come from, of families and small groups, prepared to pay £700 each way for a Couchette Compartment? Every night, throughout the year. I don't think so.

Neither Lowland or Highland Sleeper can convey any more carriages than it does now, so these Couchette carriages would have to be instead of a carriage with Sleeper Cabins. We have already determined that passengers don't like sharing with strangers, so on the many nights that families and small groups don't travel, there would be a lot of empty carriages being moved around the country. Far more practicable for this market to go by day train and stay in a hotel.

I was thinking of new stock with compartments like they have on the continent: not a £700 luxury double cabin, but bunks like the continental couchettes, sold to the average user for a reasonable supplement over and above the train fare. This in a post covid world of course. It's interesting that folks on the continent can happily share couchettes (which are nothing like sleepers, they are essentially lie-down seated compartments). New services in 2020 seem to be able to run trains from northern Germany to Austria using this type of stock for very reasonable fares. Maybe the CS is aimed too much at the luxury market which is why the high expectations (at high fares) don't seem to be met by the present service as quoted by many users on this thread. Maybe Scotland needs a dedicated couchettes train for the summer season to supplement the year round sleeper? It's looking like continental sleeper and couchettes trains are going to make a big come back post covid (see the International Travel threads).

 

[Bald Rick]

I was thinking of new stock with compartments like they have on the continent: not a £700 luxury double cabin, but bunks like the continental couchettes, sold to the average user for a reasonable supplement over and above the train fare.

But the point is that even at £200-300 a room, the sleeper still loses over £100 a passenger. So by simply having s different bed arrangement in roughly the same place, even if you sell the berths at the same price, on average, you will still lose £100 a passenger.

And I’d contend you wouldn’t sell the berths at the same price, on average, therefore the loss increases.

 

[markymark2000]

Something I am interested to ask is, does the CS have to have door pairs on each carriage? If 1 pair of doors was removed, it would provide a little bit more space for cabins or staff. Extra cabins means more passengers per train and obviously that is a good thing. It's not as if the CS needs 2 door pairs per carriage as the speed of getting people on and off isn't a priority (well, not a priority compared to a commuter train on the Castlefields Corridor).

 

[Bald Rick]

Quite. The sleeper might be politically popular now...

I’d say it was politically popular pre-COVID. I can’t imagine that it has got any more popular since, so the only way is down.

 

[TimboM]

I’d say it was politically popular pre-COVID. I can’t imagine that it has got any more popular since, so the only way is down.

The seats aside, it's about as Covid-safe (public) travel as you can find.
Currently fully-funded by Transport Scotland, I'd suggest its star is rising even further with the politicians.

 

[CBlue]

Something I am interested to ask is, does the CS have to have door pairs on each carriage? If 1 pair of doors was removed, it would provide a little bit more space for cabins or staff. Extra cabins means more passengers per train and obviously that is a good thing. It's not as if the CS needs 2 door pairs per carriage as the speed of getting people on and off isn't a priority (well, not a priority compared to a commuter train on the Castlefields Corridor).

I assume there's a good reason, presunably to do with speed of evacuation in an emergency.


Regardless of politics, the public purse is likely to get squeezed a lot in the coming years. Subsidising sleeper trains to run on routes that already have other means of transport during the day instead of "lifeline" bus or rail services elsewhere doesn't seem politically wise to me...

 

[philthetube]

But the point is that even at £200-300 a room, the sleeper still loses over £100 a passenger. So by simply having s different bed arrangement in roughly the same place, even if you sell the berths at the same price, on average, you will still lose £100 a passenger.

And I’d contend you wouldn’t sell the berths at the same price, on average, therefore the loss increases.

True, unless the average loading is increased. I assume on our limited gauge that three high is a non starter?

 

[Bald Rick]

True, unless the average loading is increased. I assume on our limited gauge that three high is a non starter?

Certainly. And average loadings were actually pretty high until COVID. Much higher than with the Mk3s.

Also, given that people tend not to want to share rooms, having 4 berth cabins would surely reduce loadings.

The seats aside, it's about as Covid-safe (public) travel as you can find.
Currently fully-funded by Transport Scotland, I'd suggest its star is rising even further with the politicians.

I agree it’s COVID safe, but I’m not at all sure that Politicians are seeing it as a good thing.

 

[RT4038]

I was thinking of new stock with compartments like they have on the continent: not a £700 luxury double cabin, but bunks like the continental couchettes, sold to the average user for a reasonable supplement over and above the train fare. This in a post covid world of course. It's interesting that folks on the continent can happily share couchettes (which are nothing like sleepers, they are essentially lie-down seated compartments). New services in 2020 seem to be able to run trains from northern Germany to Austria using this type of stock for very reasonable fares. Maybe the CS is aimed too much at the luxury market which is why the high expectations (at high fares) don't seem to be met by the present service as quoted by many users on this thread. Maybe Scotland needs a dedicated couchettes train for the summer season to supplement the year round sleeper? It's looking like continental sleeper and couchettes trains are going to make a big come back post covid (see the International Travel threads).

But do the continentals 'happily' share couchettes? Judging by the reduction of Sleeper services across the continent over last 50 years, it looks like customers have voted with their feet.

It is unlikely that any new Sleeper stock will be built in this country for the next 50 years, and there is no way that the 'summer season' will financially justify building any for that market (if it really exists anyway).

The small number of new continental sleeper routes is likely to be a 'flash in the pan'; the CityNightLine network had money thrown at it and commercially it did not work. Little reason to think that this Austrian effort will be different. Maybe some Government money will be thrown at it to maintain some green credential, but I will be surprised if there is a 'big come back' because the public like couchettes over travelling by (now much faster) day trains, and other competitive modes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The small number of new continental sleeper routes is likely to be a 'flash in the pan'; the CityNightLine network had money thrown at it and commercially it did not work. Little reason to think that this Austrian effort will be different. Maybe some Government money will be thrown at it to maintain some green credential, but I will be surprised if there is a 'big come back' because the public like couchettes over travelling by (now much faster) day trains, and other competitive modes.

CNL was a great product in the 90s, but it rapidly got rubbish, and by the end had no benefit over a classic D-Zug.

 

[trebor79]

I've used couchette in Europe and North Africa. The only time I felt uncomfortable was in Morocco, where I ended up sharing a cabin from Tangier to Marrakesh with a newly wed couple...
I'd happily use couchettes again.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’ve used couchettes all over Europe. Barely slept on any of them. And only felt secure when all berths in a compartment were occupied by people I knew.

 

[RT4038]

CNL was a great product in the 90s, but it rapidly got rubbish, and by the end had no benefit over a classic D-Zug.

Presumably because making it a great product cost too much money and they could not get the fare income to support these costs. And I think they pretty much tried! So the only option was reducing costs, which diminished the product, with the predictable consequence.
Sadly, Sleeping car trains are an anachronism, mostly due to staffing costs and the change in product (speed, and non-compatible equipment, of daytime trains) pricing the concept out of the market.

 

[popeter45]

this is all in the past now as stock was already built but had an idea for increasing number of usable berths
stack like bunks with with separate sides for access to each bunk (e.g. one side the room is L shaped and the other side is a upside down L)
would maximises usage without sacrificing personal space

 

[RT4038]

I've used couchettes all over Europe, and their equivalents elsewhere in the world. Never felt particularly insecure, except in Italy [not from occupants in the cabin, but from stories of roving robber gangs]. They are better than sitting up all night, but day trains, sleeper cabins for exclusive use, or faster competing modes are likely to be seen as better by all but the most ardent railway enthusiasts.

 

[Peter Sarf]

this is all in the past now as stock was already built but had an idea for increasing number of usable berths
stack like bunks with with separate sides for access to each bunk (e.g. one side the room is L shaped and the other side is a upside down L)
would maximises usage without sacrificing personal space

No, if we are talking couchette and need for privacy/security, I think a better use of space would be to crawl into bed from one end of the bed. With a door at the end of the bed straight into the corridor. Similar to the cheap compact "capsule hotel" I saw in Tokyo but a bit more basic.

Linky

And

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've used couchettes all over Europe, and their equivalents elsewhere in the world. Never felt particularly insecure, except in Italy [not from occupants in the cabin, but from stories of roving robber gangs]. They are better than sitting up all night, but day trains, sleeper cabins for exclusive use, or faster competing modes are likely to be seen as better by all but the most ardent railway enthusiasts.

Only time I felt insecure in couchettes was when I was moving to Germany for my year out, and had £300 in travellers' cheques in my pocket (and I think £200 in DM cash) and £1000 worth of laptop in my bag. Needless to say no sleep.

 

[trebor79]

Oh I never sleep in couchettes or cabins. But that's just because I can't get to sleep if there's any noise whatsoever (oddly, once I'm actually asleep a bomb could go off and I wouldn't notice), not because I'm worried about what the other people in the cabin might do.
Worst experience I nearly had was on a ferry from Newcastle to Amsterdam. My friend ended up in a salaried cabin for 4. One of which was a very inebriated Scotsman in a kilt who crashed through the door and woke everyone up at 3am with incoherent rambling before they persuaded him to get into bed. A short time later they were awoken again by an overwhelming smell of sewage. The drunk guy had completely lost control of all his bodily functions.
We saw him scuttle down the gangplank the next morning, still with his own waste encrusted on his legs. We made certain that we were not on the same bus for the transfer to the city centre!

 

[gingerheid]

this is all in the past now as stock was already built but had an idea for increasing number of usable berths
stack like bunks with with separate sides for access to each bunk (e.g. one side the room is L shaped and the other side is a upside down L)
would maximises usage without sacrificing personal space

Like the original Yotels, where it works really well. I really can't see why there aren't a few berths like this (and while there's less storage space, if you know that there's only going to be one person in the berth then it's enough)!

 

[Roger B]

London to Edinburgh by car legally with adequate stops is well over 8 hours. Most people will not be willing to drive that far in one go, which is why car has a very low modal share for that journey.

Any further north and it gets really silly and definitely necessary to break in two with an overnight stay.

It would be a huge shame if the sleeper were to be discontinued. But I suggest it is a real possibility, and should not be discounted. Many people are used to driving these distances - for instance the thousands (hundreds of thousands?) who prior to covid used to drive to holiday destinations in central and southern europe. They try to make the journey part of the holiday experience, and could do the same visiting Scotland - eg with a stop-off at Hadrian's wall, or the Kielder forest, or Durham, etc. And whilst in Scotland could take day trains to Fort Bill, Kyle of Lochalsh or wherever - and possibly have better experiences of the Scottish landscapes. And these are the very people, ie tourists, that are being targeted by CS. If the sleeper were discontinued, you can see Visit Scotland swinging seamlessly into promoting the virtue of such holidays, especially as the numbers involved (individual family units heading north per week) wouldn't have significant environmental impacts or effects on road usage. Add in the benefits of having your own car for travelling around in Scotland, and current covid nervousness about public transport, you could see significant changes in modal share happening, and possibly quite quickly. I suggest all stakeholders, including RMT, should keep this in mind, or they may inadvertently hasten the demise of the service, in which case everyone loses.

On a more positive note, I have read elsewhere how overnight rail travel in Europe is (or is about to) undergoing something of a renaissance, which may possibly widen the appeal of the UK sleepers to the continental market, if the UK sleepers still exist!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many people are used to driving these distances - for instance the thousands (hundreds of thousands?) who prior to covid used to drive to holiday destinations in central and southern europe. They try to make the journey part of the holiday experience, and could do the same visiting Scotland - eg with a stop-off at Hadrian's wall, or the Kielder forest, or Durham, etc.

Indeed, but that's a different type of trip - typically a week or two's family holiday with the car packed full of stuff, rather than a quick weekend on the hills, say. You could also do a version of that by day train. I've done it myself. That isn't even to be discouraged on environmental grounds - a family car with 4 people in it is both environmentally and road-space efficient.

What I oppose is people claiming they are safe to drive for 10-12 hours in one go with only very short breaks. Those people are similar to people who think they can drive (their premium German car, typically) safely at 100mph for everyone on the road - they're simply wrong and that sort of thing needs discouraging, not using as an argument against Sleepers. Fortunately it seems electric cars will stop them soon enough by forcing decent breaks for charging!

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed, but that's a different type of trip - typically a week or two's family holiday with the car packed full of stuff, rather than a quick weekend on the hills, say. You could also do a version of that by day train. I've done it myself. That isn't even to be discouraged on environmental grounds - a family car with 4 people in it is both environmentally and road-space efficient.

What I oppose is people claiming they are safe to drive for 10-12 hours in one go with only very short breaks. Those people are similar to people who think they can drive (their premium German car, typically) safely at 100mph for everyone on the road - they're simply wrong and that sort of thing needs discouraging, not using as an argument against Sleepers. Fortunately it seems electric cars will stop them soon enough by forcing decent breaks for charging!

But the point is, that for those of us who sometimes do drive up for a (longish) weekend on the hills:

a) it’s about 8 hours not 10-12h (depending where you starting from and going, of course)
b) many will break the journey with an overnight stop
c) most will share the driving
d) it saves the hassle and expense of hiring a car up there to get to the hills

It’s no different to driving through Europe as @Roger B says.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I’ve used couchettes all over Europe. Barely slept on any of them. And only felt secure when all berths in a compartment were occupied by people I knew.

Plus the need to take some sort of securing device to "lock" the compartment doors from the inside (bike cable for example) , as the night thieves obviously had Bern carriage keys.

 

[Peter Sarf]

But the point is, that for those of us who sometimes do drive up for a (longish) weekend on the hills:

a) it’s about 8 hours not 10-12h (depending where you starting from and going, of course)
b) many will break the journey with an overnight stop
c) most will share the driving
d) it saves the hassle and expense of hiring a car up there to get to the hills

It’s no different to driving through Europe as @Roger B says.

Actually. What is needed to get people out of their cars in this case is plenty of frequent public transport once they are there. But for a group of two or more the car still makes sense.

I will be sad to see the sleeper go but at the current prices I am already missing it. Realistically I am resigned to the fact that it merely fulfils a moral obligation. Maybe the resources and jobs could probably be better spent on improving other services.

The below is in connection with other peoples posts.

For those who want to blame the unions for hastening the demise of sleeper services I would remind them the unions came into being a long time a go for a very good reason. Yes some unions have now got too big for their own boots. But if unions were not there then employers would have more free reign.

As for comments about CS front line staff thinking they have a right to some where to rest during their working night. I work at a factory where people do 12 hour shifts. It is very obvious that they need to take breaks beyond 8 hours (legally six hours) and some where to take those breaks. They often eat fast then sleep in a chair in the mess room. That is even on the day shift for 30+ minutes. They take it in turns to cover eacxh other - the work gets done. For CS a 16.5 hour shift implies 7.5 hours between shifts. That is short time to gather your energy, eat, shower, sleep and get ready for work. For me i expect 8 hours sleep a night !. No wonder the staff are keen to get off the train and on their way to their accommodation. I am alarmed that in a 12+ hour shift they have no where for a quick rest during that shift.

I will get a bit contentious here - I work with a mixture of manual and office people. I have worked on both sides of the divide. Most office workers have no idea how demanding a manual or customer facing job is. TBH manual/customer facing staff don't know what they are missing - shhhh. One simple indicator is many office workers eat their lunch at their desk - that is because it is comfortable enough to do so. Never the case with people standing at a machine or serving customers. If I have a choice I go for the desk job because I am largely at rest while working.

 

[Bald Rick]

Actually. What is needed to get people out of their cars in this case is plenty of frequent public transport once they are there.

But for most of the mountainous areas of Scotland, there simply isn’t the demand for any form of public transport. I’ve had many a day on the hills where I don’t see anyone else (except for my group), and it’s a rare day that’s you see more than 2 or three other people/groups. Providing any sort of public transport except for a couple of hours at weekends when the weather is ok to a handful of popular hill areas will be far, far less efficient than the car.

 

[Peter Sarf]

But for most of the mountainous areas of Scotland, there simply isn’t the demand for any form of public transport. I’ve had many a day on the hills where I don’t see anyone else (except for my group), and it’s a rare day that’s you see more than 2 or three other people/groups. Providing any sort of public transport except for a couple of hours at weekends when the weather is ok to a handful of popular hill areas will be far, far less efficient than the car.

I agree. If there was enough demand then the places you want to go to would risk becoming un-attractive !. It is why I cannot see the car going out of fashion. That is unless people change their habits and watch (even more) TV !.

I suppose I (we) are thinking along the lines of leisure travel. Business travel would be a different case. Back to tourism I imagine the real/identified market for CS is people who have paid several hundred pounds to fly to the UK (Heathrow) from another continent and want to get to see Scotland.

 

[Meerkat]

I really wouldn’t want to rely on public transport in the Highlands - nowhere near enough accommodation to fall back on if it goes wrong.
Maybe they need to bring back Motorail.....